mikelli

I PAID ALOT OF MONEY FOR THE PUPPY AND JUST WANT TO ENJOY HIM, I DONT WANT THE BREEDER HARASSING ME FOR PHOTOS AND UPDATES, SHE SOLD THE PUPPY TO ME AND THAT SHOULD BE IT, SHOULD SHE LET GO OFF HIM AND MOVE ON?

We always tell people that we would love to keep in touch and see how our puppies are going....some do and some don't bother....but you can be sure that if there is a problem then puppy buyers are very quick to get in touch.....an ongoing interest just says to me that this person is not a fly by night breeder or a puppy farmer and has a genuine interest and personal investment in producing quality puppies, be pleased that you dealt with a caring breeder...I am sure that sending a couple of photos will not stop you from enjoying him. Let the breeder know that you do not wish to keep in contact, but like I said before, if down the track you have any problems, it may be good to have communication with this breeder....

When i was living in the Uk, i saw lots of gorgeous labs! Most them seemed to have longer legs than the ones you see in Australia and generally be a bit less stocky. I was wondering if it is possible to get Labs in Aus that have longer legs are are slimmer? Would working/Hunting dogs fit this description better?

Thanks

Look around on some of the breeders websites, I am sure you will find labs that suit you. Are you wanting to show your dog or do some obedience or retrieving with it?

Gotta - I don't "expect" anything of newbies other than they make a decision about what they actually want.

If they don't want to compete and win at the very highest level that's fine.

If they don't want to grow a hide like a Rhino and weather the storm of ctiticism then that's fine too.

But they shouldn't then contribute to these forums crying foul when things don't go there way.

If there is any expectation that showing dogs is like a leisurely wander thru a rose garden - sorry - but it isn't.

After 30 years I am well past entering every show every weekend and being content with just a breed "class" win.

I've invested far too much time and effort and money in my chosen breed - because that's my choice and I've served my apprenticeship I think.

It was a goal that I set myself (as a newbie) about 25+ years ago and to a very large extent I've succeeded.

Oh - and here's another clue - we rarely sit with other Lab people at weekend shows.

That way we tend to avoid all of the politics.

I haven't seen anybody in this thread "crying foul" about things not going their way. You suggested that not enough people stay for the "long haul" and it's been explained why that is more than likely the case. Newbies ARE making a decision about what they actually want - and most want out of showing within a few months. If you're not not part of the solution then you're probably part of the problem. Help change the culture for newbies, learn how to effectively mentor people and more will probably stay.

Sigh - I don't need to change the culture Pointeeblab.

Every beginner that has ever asked for help or assistance has received it from me.

I have never turned away a newbie - and don't you dare presume to tell me how to mentor somebody new.

If you had taken up the offer a few years back then maybe we wouldn't be having this tit for tat.

Once again you have succeeded in turning what was an interesting and worthwhile topic into a slanging match.

Perhaps your decision to walk away from showing & breeding has been the right one after all.

Exactly what I meant when I spoke about the "long haul" - wanting out after just a few months just doesn't cut it.

I was speaking generally Blackdog. I haven't walked away from breeding and showing and I think 5 years so far has been a fair go.

But I disagree - if you want newbies to stay then there needs to be a concerted effort by those who are involved in the breed for a long time to change the current culture. What is currently happening is CLEARLY not an attractive environment for people to stay. You can point the finger and say that the newbies are not tough enough or you can see how you can change the situation. This is a worthwhile and interesting topic which existed before I commented.

This is not about you and me - we can have that conversation amongst ourselves.

Unfortunately this is a tough game for anyone to break into. Sometimes new exhibitors come in with sub standard dogs, but the biggest problem some of them face is inexperience with handling, try as they may, it is very hard to compete with the experienced handler that is well known by all at the shows.

It takes lots of practice not only to show off your dog to its best but also to appear confident yourself, you will find most exhibitors that win have mastered that "you WILL award this class to ME" look about them, and I know from bitter experience that that "attitude" is what is hard to beat.....sure takes more than a few months to get the confidence to go out and mix it with the old hands.....but it is fun trying.....we thoroughly enjoy shows, not only to parade our dogs but also for the social aspect. Maybe this is a little more relaxed in the country, but most people are very friendly and are usually willing to give a hand or some advice, as I said before, take it all on board and then go home and bin what you don't agree with, or can't use....

It is all well and good being a good mentor, but at the end of the day we are all out there to win with our dogs and that is where the experience usually shines through, like it or not.....experienced handlers also have the ability to make an ordinary dog look really really good, conversely an inexperienced handler can make a very very good dog look average....

This is all only my opinion and there are many out there who will not agree and that is their prerogative......

No matter what field anyone chooses to enter there is always going to be the politics, the challenge is to be able to listen to the opinions of those who want to give "advice", then go home and decide which parts to take on board and which bits go in the garbage. The only way to learn is to listen and watch, sure you will not agree with everything, use the bits you need though, new comers need to be able to take advice from experienced handlers......I am still learning after 12 years, some decisions I make turn out right and some wrong, thats life.....

When you guys have ultrasounds done on your bitches for seeing if they are pregnant is she scanned lying down or standing?

Ive got a lab bitch here which was mated before she arrived here in foster care. She had an ultra sound before she was flown down and it showed no pregnancy and the vet explained her teats etc as a phantom. If this is a phantom she sure is good at it and she is growing more round every day. Everything I know about how dogs look when they are pregnant is telling me she is and Ive seen a lot of them. One breeder of labs has told me she may be pregnant but the scan was done wrong because she was laying on one side and its more usual to do a scan on a lab standing.

I guess time will tell if she is pregnant but thought Id ask the queston here. I had visitors here 2 days ago - all experienced breeders and every one said "that bitch is pregnant"

Only ultrasounds we have had done the bitch is lying on her back, down certre line.

Some of them are very good at the phantom thing......friend of mine had a lab girl that got fat, had milk dripping out and made a nest, still no babies, she had not even been mated, she went through this performance every time she had a season until they got her desexed. Poor thing must have been desparate to have babies.

If she is that big, you should be able to feel something moving if you hold your hand on her for a while if she will lie still for you...

Very perceptive MM - I didn't notice the two point 2's.

But a significant number of breeders are using Limited vs Main register as a financial negotiation tool.

Example - this puppy will be $1,100 on Limited register, but if you want it on main rgeister it will cost $1,450.

Now Limited registration means not suitable for showing or breeding .

A puppy simply can't go from being unsuitable to suitable in the blink of an eye.

As someone who just recently went through the process of selecting a new lab puppy I can say I have seen this happening in the advertisements here on DOL.

Right now just looking at ads from NSW only, there is a bitch for sale on mains register who "can be transferred to the limited register on request for a greatly reduced price."

There is also an ad for an upcoming litter which states that all puppies will be sold on the main register. :D They have not even been born yet!

Yet another ad states "The pups are priced at $1000.00 Limited Registration as Pets. Main Registration is available upon negotiation to responsible parties." We can only hope the negotiation only applies to pups suitable for main registration but it doesn't necessarily read that way.

Going back to what was said earlier about breeding for colour, there is also an ad for puppies in which the chocolate puppies are priced $200 higher than the yellow puppies.

These are the ads that NSW lab puppy buyers are looking at right now! You have to wonder what this is going to do to the breed over time.

Absolutely correct Macka - happens in every State and Territory right around Australia.

Are these individual "breeders" breaking any Controlling Body rule - often times not.

There are no rules which dictate that breeders must be open and honest in their dealings with puppy buyers.

Similarly - there are no written rules that guard against inexperience, or misinterpretation or just plain downright stupidity.

Nor are there any rules (or training programmes) which teaches the novice how to choose & assess the quality of individual puppies.

All of that comes with skill and experience and an intimate understanding of bloodlines and the breed itself.

Bring on an ANKC endorsed, Sate Controlled Breeder Accreditation scheme IMO.

Picture a system that "appraises" the skill of individual breeders based on:

- years of experience

- customer feedback

- level of visible hereditary defect testing

- performance of dogs bred in chosen fields of endeavour.

Picture a system that allocates a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platnum status to individual breeders.

Picture a system that requires that a beginner must receive endorsement from a Gold/Platnum breeder in a mentoring role.

Only then will the current "minefield" confronting puppy buyers be able to be negotiated with some degree of confidence.

Some form of accreditation scheme is long overdue, I think a lot of the problem with some beginning breeders is just plain ignorance of the facts. I am all for mentoring new breeders, I myself was very fortunate to have a long standing breeder as my mentor and I still rely on her advice and knowledge. I am forever grateful that I was lucky enough to be taken under her wing....this person is now one of my dearest friends.....that we could all be so lucky....

Macka, my guess would be that those yellow puppies could possibly have chocolate points hence the smaller price tag.....quite possible in a chocolate/yellow

litter.....

Please be sure to see copies of the health testing done on the parents. Also be sure the scores are good ones, just because they are x rayed does not mean that they have good scores. Breed average is said to be 12 at present so both parents hip scores need to be below that. I was not aware that you could buy registered puppies from a pet shop, sounds a little strange to me. Are you sure you will receive registration papers or is it only that the parents of the puppy are registered and not the breeder

This is a copy of an email I received recently, I had been previously contacted by this person and I had told her the price of my puppies as well as all the usual info that we give people with genuine enquiries.....

"just asking if i'm able to buy a female puppie from you that may be the Runt of the litter or a Reject as i'm only wanting a pet for the company and i can't afford to spend alot. Would i be able to buy it with no papers, injections, worming, desexed and so on as i will get her desexed, wormed and needled as soon as she is old enough by the vet in xxxxxx. Could you please get back to me with an answer and a price."

I replied politely to the second email and told this person that I did not have a puppy that fitted the description she gave and I was sorry I was unable to help her.....

Today OH saw her walking along the street with a 7 week old puppy on a lead, so he enquired about the baby....

She said she had picked it up from a neighbouring city yesterday, and that it had cost her heaps of money.....$600.00 !! OH enquired what she got for her money and she very proudly said " a needle and worming" OH enquired weather the puppy was registered......OH NO!!! she said

"it would have been $700 if I wanted it registered"

I know these people ("breeders") are out there everywhere, but they did not even warn her about the dangers of taking the poor little thing onto the streets before it had its next vaccination......

Vent over, all the above posts are so true and sure we need to be improving everything we do all the time, but we are never going to stop this sort of situation, this girl wanted a lovely pet and I hope for her sake that the baby grows into the companion she is dreaming of, but if it has problems it will be

"labradors" that are unsound and get a bad reputation, not this "BREEDER"

It's all sorted. The issue certainly makes interesting conversation.

Glad you have worked it out. Unfortunately it is the dogs with problems that everyone hears about. There are thousands of sound dogs out there that never get a mention because they do not have problems......if only there was as much publicity about the good things that breeders do, and the sound beautiful dogs they breed. Instead everyone focuses on the negative all the time....good luck, I hope things work out well for you in the future.

According to Dr Wyburn elbow dysplasia in dogs is highly inheritable. You do need to go back to the owners of both sire and dam of this pup and tell them about the problem. Breeders should be kept in the loop about what problems their dogs are producing.

yep, the breeder knows all about the problem. what she does with the info..... ???? She is still showing the full brother and sister (winning too) - future breeding stock i'd say. I think a system needs to be in place to follow the family tree of all dogs affected. Apparantly only 150 chosen vet practices compile the stats in australia.

Er - hang on a minute - this discussion is getting a bit bogged down.

What the breeder chooses to "do" to satisfy Wantasounddog is actually up to the breeder.

As I suggested in an earlier post Wantasounddog needs to state his case and then agree a course of action with the breeder.

Whether or not the breeder is exhibitting litter mates and whether or not they are winning is the breeders business.

So too does the decision whether or not those siblings are ultimately included in a future breeding programme.

Wantasounddog - you suggest that "the breeder knows all about the problem - what she does with the info????".

Well nobody can answer that question other than you and the breeder.

I'll ask again - what have you actually asked the breeder to do to resolve the issues you are experiencing with your young dog?

If you've not asked for anything then you can't expect a resolution can you?

I have to make a response to this. What happened to a breeders responsibility? Aren't they breeding dogs to supply the pet market as well as servicing their own hobby?

It is up to you to contact the breeder and resolve this, no amount of talking on a forum can do it. No where has anyone said that breeders are not responsible, but it is up to you to work something out with your breeder.

If you were asked to nominate the three most important things confronting our breed what would they be?

Most would realise that hips, elbows and eyes are the "big three" genetic issues but what else?

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Have been thinking on this one for a couple of days so here goes....

1. I have to agree with MM about the "Chocolate Mania" sweeping the country there are so many chocolate puppies being produced for colour and no heed being given to quality that it frightens me.....this is why chocolate labs are getting bad publicity I feel..

2. The fact that unsound dogs get hi-lighted all the time (not saying that we do not have problems which need addressing) but very little is heard about the 1000's of beautiful healthy sounds dogs that are out there everywhere.

3.Educating Puppy buyers re diet and exercise requirements of their babies - why is it that so many people choose not to follow the advice breeders give them.....

Run Free Fitzy hope you are coping OK Labsrule we are all thinking of you at this terrible time

Hey guys Im hoping for some good tips

Bella is nearly 5 mths now and wont play fetch with us...I have tried giving her a treat when she brings the toy back to me but this only lasts a couple of throws and then she just looks at me like if you want the toy you go and get it

How do I teach her toplay fetch...the boys are dying to play it with her...

Bella is a lab by the way dont know if that has anything to do with it

Most labs have a natural instinct to fetch, it is what they were bred for after all. Try putting the toy or whatever a short distance from you and if she brings it back praise praise, if you can get her to do short retrieves then lengthen them little by little, of course with labs if there is a food reward when the job is done that helps......little steps.....some of mine do it without being taught.....some don't care for retrieving at all.....

This is going to sound really dumb, and admittedly I should know better owning gundogs!.....

Why is there such a hugely distinct difference in type between what we know as 'show' type labs and those which come from the guide-dog breeding kennels?

My impression is that those from successful winning kennels seem very heavy, thick-set 'bulky' dogs that move accordingly.

Others I've seen (usually from guide-dog kennels or 'pet trade breeders') appear much more refined, a little finer in bone, less heavy and less 'robust'. They often (to me anyway!) seem to move more soundly too (Flame Suit!!!).

Why the distinct types? How did this happen and was it for a purpose?

OR have I just got it all wrong?

I guess ultimately all breeders should be trying to breed to the standard as seen above. As with everything there are going to be deviations from the standard, given that there are so many labradors bred every year, there will be differences, weather it be different blood lines, country of origin, or sometimes it is personal interpretation of the standard...

This is totally out of left field and I have not read the whole thread, so don't know all the suggestions that have gone before. We have a bitch that has had itchy skin for a long time, we cannot identify the cause, and she certainly is not any where as bad as your dog. We have swiched her to Farrells kibble(very low in protein), feed lamb off cuts to her and we have been using a product called Stockgain - animal liquid sweet feed as well, we give 10 mls daily. Google it, it has lots of great things in it. We are now feeding this to all the dogs with whatever food they are on....

It is described as an apetite stimulant on the internet - it contains yeast seaweed vitamins,minerals and trace elements with vitamin E and Selenium. I have told friends about it and it has really helped with skin complaints. One vet is recommending it to clients with dogs with skin problems too, so it may just be worth a try. Our girl is really good and has regained her lovely coat and is shiny and healthy looking again....Only trouble is I have only seen it in 2.5 or 5 litre bottles so that is a bit much for an experiment. 2.5 Litres is about $25 from memory.

Mmm, may be just the thing, I gave some to Hef this morning and he is such a relaxed, mellow boy now. Might be exactly what he needs Anyone else use it?

I have, I had a bitch a couple of years ago that was stressed to the max with a litter of puppies, she was a terrible mother, stood all over the puppies, lay on them, we could not leave her for a minute with the babies, had to keep her away from the litter and just let her in to feed them (after we made sure she did not lie on the puppies) it was a nightmare....we gave her rescue remedy and it was like majic she was relaxed and acted like a normal mum....it was the most amazing thing....all the while we kept giving it to her she was fine, if we didn't she got this frightened look in her eyes and she would go back to like she was before the rr.....it has my vote....

have fun [/b]with your puppy and remember that it will probably chew, poo, and do naughty stuff for a while and you need to be consistent and patient with training.

Whatever you give a lab is returned two fold in my book, they are amazingly smart and loyal companions....we all say that you are about to be owned by a labrador.....this is very true, but I would not want to be owned by anything else....join us on "Those Crazy Labradors" in the Breed sub forums, you will hear lots of funny stories. See lots of lovely photos and there is always someone there to give advice if it is needed....it is just fun to be part of the wonderful world of labradors....just remember the first lot of advice....if you don't want to lose it put it up.....have fun with your new baby we would love to see photos...

Our lab puppies leave us on 2 meals a day with a bone for the third meal in the middle of the day. this has worked well for us for quite a while. Good quality kibble with yoghurt, sardines, grated cheese or a few vegies is fine - just alternate the additives. As previously stated most labradors will vaccum their food up and pretend they are hungry immediately.....don' get sucked in by those "feed me eyes" being overweight is a definate no no for all large breed dogs........I usually keep puppies on two feeds until they are about 6months old, depending on the puppy their growth rate and development....

No the metho does not have an adverse effect on my dogs feet, they are labradors so don't know if their skin is tougher than some or not. It is an easy and reletively cheap fix if it works. Might be worth a try.

I have a girl who bites her feet occasionally, also had my darling old girl who used to do the same thing. All I do is have some metho in a screwtop jar (I use a penut butter jar) and dunk the feet in that for a couple of days, that clears it up. As soon as symptoms return do it again a couple of times. They do not like this as it stings, but sure does the trick.

Thanks for your responses, I have had some replies in Breeders forum also. My bitches are not related, two of them have had previous litters and we have used a different stud dog each time, so nothing relevant there. We will be getting them swabbed and taking it from there, will talk to some vets too and see if they can come up with anything. We feed dry food and chicken also cooked rice, mince and veges, so it is not a total chicken diet, each dog would have approx 1kg of chicken over a week.

I am grasping at straws here, but have been having trouble getting my bitches to fall pregnant. I have now missed 3 consectutive litters (different bitches and stud dogs) and looks like another miss (girl due in 4 weeks looks empty). I have been trying to work out possible reasons for this. We feed chicken frames all the time, our dogs would average about 1kg each a week. Do chickens get fed lots of hormones etc?? We were wondering if this could be having an effect on the girls. Each time the girls start out looking like they are in whelp (start making little udders and even little tummies) then as time goes on nothing happens...

We have not had any swabs done, this is also going to happen, would it be best to swab them when in season or now while they are not in???

Any ideas greatly received.

Thanks

I think they are better left until they have matured, having said that, it also has to fit in with you and what works for you. What to expect?? I am always amazed at how quickly bitches get over being speyed, they say to keep them quiet, well I say good luck if you can, most of mine have been wanting to jump around the next morning. Just watch that they don't lick too much and try to pull the stitches out, that is the only drama I have heard of.....They really are very tough.....

My experience was not a happy one. However let me say that to have a proper diagnosis (spelling?) you really need to have xrays done. Some puppies can be very lame and it can be nothing more than growing pains. I have seen this often in larger breed dogs. I have heard that some cases can be treated successfully without surgery, others need to be operated on, it depends on the severity of the case. If your puppy is on cartrofen have you got him crated, this is necessary to let the cartrofen do its job. I believe sashas blend is good. Glucosamine is also good, but I believe it does much the same as cartrofen. Please keep your puppy as quiet as you can (I know this can be very hard) but if it is going to improve I believe this is necessary, you have to be cruel to be kind sometimes. Vitamin C in the form of Ester C is also a great help I believe. I am certainly no expert, but am just sharing some of my experiences.