CaseyKay

Melbell when KCs levels were low we had to be really careful with the timing of her meds. We ended up putting them up a bit as she had a few seizures just before her dose was due. How old is Toby and how much does he weigh? When KC first started on Pb she was on 30mg, 11kg and 20 months old, she was very lethargic on that dose. She had a couple of years meds/seizure-free and in 10 months since she started seizing again she has gone up to 45mg but weighs only 1kg more, and you would never know she is on meds. Not sure why this is. We get Pb from the vet but he will only give us 3 months at a time, old vet in 2004 gave us 500 pills which lasted I think 8 months until we weaned her off them. I also noticed we were charged $30 for the 3 months of 30mg and $30 for the 3 months of 15mg!!! Next time will save money and get all 30s!

Cowanbree have sent you a pm

Hi there, Just checking in to see how the epi dogs are doing. We are now 8 weeks seizure free and she hasn't even had any focals in that time. Maybe due to the last episode being a big bad cluster and also upping her Pb slightly. We still haven't put KC on KBr, but she has bloods in 2 months so will talk to her vet then. Even with her higher dose you would still not know she is on meds. She is 5 1/2 now, we presume she might stop acting like puppy at some stage! She is quite a little girl and fluffy, but I think people presume she is a puppy because of the way she acts as well. Always getting asked "awwww, how old is your puppy?". We are looking at getting a new puppy now (a small breed not a third BC), will be interesting to see how she goes with that. Have added KC's photo that will be in the Epil-K9 email list fund-raising calendar this year! Kelly & KC

Hi, Thanks for that. That is the main issue I have with shyness. We take our 2 dogs everywhere, they have very social lives, not just to dog training shows but sometimes to work with me (university) and wherever OH is running errands etc during the day, also his 4wd events, KC loves going to work with my Mum, who is a rest home nurse, too. Both our dogs are very outgoing and confident with people. They like doing PR type stuff, for the club at expos etc. I would not like to have a dog that would be traumatised by our lifestyle and be happier just being at home A good friend of mine who had two goldies and a sheltie (pets) is getting a papillon puppy soon, so I might be able to try him out so to speak! I'm in no big hurry to get a pup and I want to make the right decision. Their goldies are very much like my BCs but the sheltie tends to stay at home and is quite happy there. She had some trouble finding a breeder who is okay with a papillon puppy in a house with two big dogs. Two in fact said no way, sorry, too high of risk of injury to the tiny puppy. This is something I hadn't considered. I have seen quite a size variation in the breed, so could possible try for a larger one.

Thanks guys! I have only met one sheltie that has a temperament I like, the majority are very shy. I love the looks of the breed though. But I see too many that are constantly shuffling around trying to keep their owner between them and Scary Other People. How would one go about finding suitable lines? I live in New Zealand. Not too keen on corgis, we had a pembroke next door when I was growing up and he was a nasty ankle bitey dog. Put me off for life. In terms of soundness of temperament and physical ability I personally think poodles would be the best bet. Would just need to persuade OH they aren't girly poofy dogs. If I was getting a dog just as a pet, I would definately go for the Cav. Argh.

I have competed with my border collie in agility, obedience and tracking. She has been successful in all of these. She is not quite 7 years old but an ongoing limp recently led us to x-ray her and she has quite bad arthritis in her elbow. At the moment the x-rays have been sent to a specialist to see if she needs an operation. Regardless she won't be doing any more jumping activities. I am hoping at the moment she can improve to the point where we can continue with tracking, or at least obedience. as showing a limping dog is frowned upon. I hope so because she is not a dog that is really happy being "just a pet" (she is mostly working lines). She is on house rest and metacam for 2 weeks at the moment. We have another BC who is 5 and due to a head trauma as a puppy has some slight neurological issues and is on medication for seizures (she still has seizures occasionally). I train her for fun but she is not really suitable for competitions. KC is still the best dog ever :D although she is not from working lines we have used her as a working cattle dog in the past. Her main speciality is being cute. My husband thinks now would be a good time to get a puppy although I am still on the fence, he thinks if I wait another few years the girls won't cope well with a puppy. I would love a new dog to train up and compete with. I grew up with working farm border collies and so did OH. Neither of us have had another breed. We live in town on a smallish section (750m2). Due to her vision problems KC is not great with dogs that are very bouncy or want to play rough games. Maddie the other BC doesnt really do play and is happy for KC to be the boss of her, so that is okay. I have found that KC is really good with small dogs and will play with them. KC is small herself, she weighs 12kg. I also worry that if Maddie is going to have joint problems I don't want a very full on dog for a third dog. Here are some breeds we are considering, and wonder if anyone who owns these breeds would have any input, or if there are other breeds we should consider. I should note I want a dog that is happy to work but don't need to win everything, it is very much a hobby for me. Especially interested in small breeds that people have done tracking with. I don't like terrier breeds. I would prefer a purebred and not a crossbred and a puppy not a rescue (no issues with rescues, my last two were, just with KC issues it would be easier). Due to me working days and OH working 3pm-11pm, the dogs are alone only about an hour a day during the week. Sheltie (shyness?) Cavalier (concern with health issues) Toy or Miniature poodle (possible husband issue with "foo foo" dog) Papillon (possibly too small) I guess these 4 are the traditional smaller sports breeds. There are some another breeds I really like the looks of, such as tibetan spaniel but doubt their suitability for sports. I don't want a breed that would be unhappy competing. Feel free to PM me with any ideas.

My timid border collie girl (in my avatar) is just over 5 years old now. She does beautiful attentive heelwork, but only when she feels quite secure. Even things like a dog barking close by or a judge moving suddenly will put her off although she has become a lot more secure as she had gotten older. I still haven't done CD with her but that is my goal. Her stays are good. The stand for exam is a big issue, she is blind on one side, and if the person approaches from her good side, she is fine, but I have not been able to get to stay there if it is on her blind side. We also have problems with retrieving if she is worried about something. She goes out and lies on it instead of bringing it back. She hasn't competed in agility either, even though I think she is better than the dog I do compete with (who is pretty good in her own right). I can't train her at club because it is counter-productive to getting her confidence up, too noisy, too many dogs in a small area, some dogs not under control, lots of barking etc. I train her on my own gear and she is so good. In the few agility shows I entered her in (couple of years ago), she would tend to go okay, as long as I carried her to the start line because so much as being barked at on the way past and she woudl lie down on the start line and not budge. Even on good runs where we got off the start line, she would hide in the first available tunnel and not come out. Some sports I think could be suitable for shy dogs: Herding. We used to use KC as a working dog when we were dairy farming. The same dog that rolls on her back if someone looks at her funny at a show had no problems moving 1200 cows several km, pushing them up into the yards, and dealing with bulls. Tracking. Less people around I think is the thing for us here, it is just me and her working the track. She is good at tracking and enjoys it.

Puppiesmum, I just read your thread, it sounds like you are having a really bad time with your boy. We had up until the last episode, always given her full meds after one seizure and not had more than one since we started doing this (KC has clusters), I think it does work.

Poor little Monte pug. I hope he recovers quickly. We had to go to emergency vet weekend before last, KC had a bad cluster getting worse and closer together, she had 6 in all before she had IV valium (I have given her rectal valium after number 3 and she went three hours before starting again). She was not recovering much at all in between. She would have the seizure with usual copious foaming and urination of 1 minute to 1.5 minutes. Usually after this she races about into walls etc for about 20 seconds and then paces for a bit. After these ones she did not run around, instead she sat up whimpering and her face still twitching and saliva in ropes falling off for about another two minutes. Then she just lay down. It was horrible, I drove to the vet crying my eyes out thinking this was the end. She has not clustered since last November. These were the worse seizures I have seen her have. I keep thinking about them even now, not good. I had to carry her in to the vet, she could not walk and she was covered in wet and drying foamy saliva and urine. But the IV valium made an instant difference, within a minute or two she was trying to stand up and also trying to crawl into my arms, licking me. I feel so bad, because I was away the previous week so we had to change her meds around a little bit due to the hours my husband works. I checked it all with the vet (didn't think there would be a problem) and the epi list, got lots of replies saying changing to 3 times a day just for that week shouldn't cause problems. She was getting her usual morning dose and a split evening dose slightly higher than the usual pm dose. Just in case that wasn't the reason (she had a minor focal sort of episode only a couple weeks before that), we have upped her Pb slightly to 45mg BID, vet says see how she goes in a month but he would rather put her on KBr and drop her Pb back down a bit. She still doesn't have any side effects etc on her Pb dose, but I am worried about starting her on KBr because it seems to cause problems with ataxia. Puggles and Staffy-Lover both your dogs are on KBr as well as Pb? The vet said in the beginning she might be quite ataxic but this should ease?

We are currently 3 months seizure free and I would not think about reducing KCs meds. But her Pb levels are towards the low side of normal/therapeutic, all her other values are good and we do not have any side effects. In fact she is normal active go go go Border collie and sometimes we joke we should up her meds so we can get away with some lazy days with less walkies! I was away this week and she was being cared for by my husband. He was very good with the meds, left notes everywhere and put alarms on his cell phone! but he left the cupboard open after he fed the cat and KC ate 2kg of cat food :rolleyes: Luckily she was fine, I got home later that day and she was lying on her back on the couch groaning and farting with a very full tum, but didn't seem too much the worse for wear. This is my fussy girl who is always impossible to put weight onto. She had to sleep outside last night due to needing to go to the toilet about every hour... Last time we reduced her meds she had gone 8 months seizure free and it took a few months to reduce them to nothing. She went another 18 months after that no seizures before they started up again. I used to think she would never seize again but now I know better, I would only decrease her meds if she was ataxic or her liver readings were high. We seem to have a good balance now. She used to be quite woozy on Pb when she was younger which is why I took her off it and didn't want to start up again.

Hmm, should not have written a message saying all is well! KC had a seizure last night about 11pm. This is the first full one since mid-January. Well, usually she seizes, brought on by being stressed about something. This time she was asleep, but she had the seizure and afterwards there was none of the usual frantic running afterwards and no pacing either, she just looked at me, wagged her tail and went back to sleep. I gave her another 30mg Pb. She is a bit dopey this morning. We have vaccinations this Friday for both dogs and the cat, they are all done every 2 years. I'm not worried about the actual vaccination, more that just being at the vet makes her very stressed. I'm hoping having most of her family there will help! She likes the cat a lot and is quite protective of her, so I'm hoping that takes her mind off visiting the big bad vet.

Just saying hi, we're doing well, and bumping thread back up for reference!

Staffy-lover, I do feed KC straight after her meds, both am and pm, but she is a picky eater and I give her the meds by themselves beforehand to make sure she gets them and doesn't spit them out. I have tried giving her the meds in treats but she won't eat them. She doesn't seem to like treats at all. She has always been way too thin, although muscly and fit. i have found some food she likes to eat, and she has put on some weight in the last couple of months, enough that people don't look horrified when they pat her anyway. I still give her pills separately though because I need to know she is getting them and the exact right dose. I don't have to worry about her gaining weight with meds, thats for sure. She has been fine now for two weeks, I wish I knew what happened last time.

Vet says not to worry too much about "minor seizures" and thinks only should up meds if having more "full seizures". She has been fine since last weds night. I have put in her log and if she has more or close together I might up her meds.

Thanks Puggles, I know those sites well! I have also been reading about complex partials in people and it seems to me, this is definately what she had. The vet read what I sent (some cut and paste stuff from various sites) and wants to see her again early next week and re-do her bloods and talk about meds again. I know they have other epi patients and he has an epi dog himself but...their other patients with seizures are idiopathic. Also they do not have dogs on any drugs besides Pb. He still wants to do an MRI but I don't see the point. If they find something like a scar from her puppyhood trauma, there is nothing they can do anyway. She is 4.5 years now. It has been 3 months since the increase from 30mg to 37.5 mg BID (Pb). I think we have some room to move up the meds, because she is quite happy and no side effects on 37.5mg (she weighs 12kg). Also she had a single seizure not quite two weeks ago. Not good. I might contact NZ's one and only vet school and see if they can help or maybe point me in the direction of someone. Sometimes I get paranoid about things like fly-snapping etc, but a) I can usually see a fly if there really is one, or sometimes she is biting herself because she has an itch and b) if I say her name she will immediately look at me and/or come over. She is a very obedient dog. I think I need to video things like what happened last night as they are hard to describe in words, but I never think of it at the time.

http://www.canine-epilepsy.net/basics/basics_main.html#types If you go to this site, there is a video under a section called "Example of a focal seizure". KC's "normal" seizures are very similar to this except hers are a lot more violent, more foam etc. I see that under both focal seizures and complex partial seizures it says "this type of seizure is normally associated with secondary epilepsy". Which is what KC has (due to head truama) and talks about scar or lesion on the brain. KC has never had a tonic-clonic grand mal. I am just emailed this link to my vet, see what he says.

Ok guys, here is a weird one. BTW have already spoken to my vet this morning and he says he does think this was seizure type activity. Last night I got home after work and had to go out to a meeting. I took KC with me so I could give her her pills at the usual time. She came to the meeting with me and slept on the floor by my feet for 3 hours. She had her meds and dinner at the usual time. She was alone for about 20 minutes yesterday and was absolutely fine, no seizures. I got home about 10pm. She sleeps in our bedroom, on the bed until about 2am when my husband gets home and then in her crate. She got very restless about 11pm, and she started licking and biting at the bedclothes. She made a noise like there was something in her throat. I turned on the light and had a look. She had done this 3 times before (all this year), she will chew at/lick whatever is on front of her and if you pull her head up her mouth will keep moving, she is staring into space and she will be rigid. She does not respond if you say her name. The other 3 times, two were at home outside, and one was on a walk, and both went about 10 mins max. She stopped doing this last night after 5 minutes and paced around the bedroom for a while. Then she jumped back on the bed and started turning around as if to lie down but went around about 20 times until I put my hand on her chest, and when I did that her front legs kept moving. Then she started biting things again. Then she paced around the bedroom and she was very restless for about an hour. I put her in her crate after a while but she did not settle, getting up and lying down and licking at her mouth and not biting things, but sort of a face like you woudl make if there was soemthing on the roof of your mouth. I stayed up keeping an eye on her and she fell asleep about 4am, she was fine again this morning. I rang the vet 8am and described all this to him (and I had been reading up on complex partial seizures in the early hours!), he said no, that doesn't sound like seizure stuff. He thinks she probably did have something stuck in her throat and it was causing her stress (the other 3 times she has done this was all eating grass beforehand). He thinks I might have caused a problem because I do not give her the pills in food, I put them straight down her throat (she will not eat them in food) and has suggested I make sure she has a drink after the pills as they can get stuck if her mouth is dry. I wonder if this could be true as she doesn't seem to be trying to clear her throat and if that was the problem, would she not paw at her mouth etc? I might accept that if it had been the first time she has doen this but it was the 4th? The first time it happened I DID think she must have something caught and I had a really good look and feel around. Why I think seizure activity: Non response to voice Staring Rigid Keeps doing the motions even when stimulus removed Restless afterwards Have checked up with my husband today and she is fine and feeling very playful.

So annoyed with myself. Daylight savings changed here on Sunday and I remembered to change the clocks but forgot about the meds. It was half an hour late as it was so that made it 1.5 hours late and she had a seizure mid-morning. At least I presume that was why. I know how close her meds are to JUST being able to control the seizures because I want as little sedation effects as possible. At least she only had one and the post-ictal was very short. Bang she had a seizure, zoomed around for another minute and then was ready to get back into playing (but I took her home!). I did give her an extra 30mg but she was fine afterwards.

Puggles you are a better person than me I would not be able to adopt a dog knowing it is epileptic. It is hard enough with KC whom I loved for almost two years before the seizures started.

Oh yeah. Know two people in dog sports who chose to pts their dog rather than have an epileptic dog. They didn't even try meds ...one saying "too expensive" and the other feeling the dog would have no quality of life either way. It is very hard when people say things like that, are they saying I am cruel? That KC has no quality of life? I think she has better quality of life than an awful lot of dogs out there. She gets a lot of exercise, she spends less than 2 hours a day by herself and even then the other dog is with her. She goes swimming and rabbit hunting. She seems to have no ataxia or side effects on the Pb whatsoever. I also disagree it is "expensive", the Pb costs me about $9 per month. Plus blood work maybe $50 every 6 months. So call it $20 a month. I spend that on eating out LUNCH sometimes. I have also had a person who has no experience with epileptic dogs say "I can't believe you drug her. She will die young of liver damage. Don't you know there are all sorts of homeopathic and alternative therapies for epilepsy. Have you even TRIED any of them". Most people who know me well know I love KC more than anything in the world and i make decisions for her, the best I can, with the knowledge I have. The comments still hurt though.

Bumping this back up so I can find it if I need it! KC went back to obedience class for the first time this year tonight due to me being a bit too busy. I have put her in canine good citizen class. I got asked three times how long it took me to get her so well-behaved (she was being angelic like usual...she is very quiet and well-behaved in public), I said "oh she's always been like that". One person said "oh, no hope for my dog then", so my friend said "don't believe that, it's really because she sedates her twice a day". Person said "What! You must be joking?" and I said "well, actually...". Haha.

Yes, KC usually clusters which is why I gave her the extra Pb. The last three times she just had one seizure so I'm thinking it does something. Because besides those last three, she has clustered until I get her to the vet and onto IV valium and the seizures get closer and closer together in the cluster. Clusters scare the h*ll out of me. This vet is the best we had, at least he sees KC as an individual and doesn't treat her as a "text-book case" (I don't think there is with epilepsy but the previous vets all have). No neurologists in New Zealand. After her last bloodowrk I talked to him for about an hour and it was really good. I went to get new Pb prescription this morning and when I got home vet nurse had only given me 15mg ones. I went back and got 30s and then I looked on the label and it said "give one every 24 hours pm" on the 15mg and "give one every 24 hours am" on the 30mg. I mean I know better but what if that was someone new?? I rang her again and she said, "oh, are you sure, I better change that on her file then". I said "WAS that on her file??" surprised the vet had stuffed up, and she said, no I wrote that. Who knows??

When I gave her the 60mg she had the seizure about an hour before her morning dose was due. By the time we got home (we were in the park) it was 30 minutes so I gave her 60mg around the time her dose was due, and this was 30 minutes after the seizure. Otherwise I would have done like you said you do with your boy. She seemed fine...after 30 minutes the post-ictal had gone pretty much finished and when I got home that afternoon she was happy enough. I think the difference between my vet and yours and Puggles vet (same neurologist?) is that mine is a general vet and yours is a neurologist, because he has said a few things now that when I mentioned on here it wasn't what your neurologist suggested. E.g about giving her 30 in the morning and 45 at night because she was seizing in the morning. It woudl be a very rare occasion I would change from the 12 hours apart schedule so I hope it is not a problem as I think I will feel more secure if she has 30 and 30 that night since the early dose is going to be 5 hours early. Thanks for the advice!

Question for you guys, Puggles? Staffy-lover? KC has 37.5 mg Pb 7am and 7pm. Friday in two weeks I am going away to a dog show with two friends and three dogs total. We can't fit more dogs in the van so KC has to stay at home. We leave at lunchtime. My husband leaves for work at 2pm. Husband works too far away to make it home and back on his break, and he has nowhere to park where it is shady so he can't take her along. The best option the vet suggested, just for that night is Simon give her 30mg at 2pm (5 hours early and she will also have to be fed then) and 15mg when he gets home at midnight, then back to usual in the morning. I'm still not sure that is going to work out to be enough given that her current dose is as low as we can go without breakthrough seizures...maybe 30mg at midnight as well? I told the vet I think she would be fine with that and I said last time she seized (when she was still on 30mg), I gave her 60mg that morning and he said that was bad. Way too high at once and I should have discussed that with him before I decided to do that. But on the epi dog list I am on, I know several people who do that to stop clusters. I didn't tell him THAT though

Until I read this in the book it never occurred to me to wonder if she was conscious of what is happening. I just know she is scared afterwards. The last two seizures only (single ones) I have been able to tell she will seize before she does... before that they just seemed to happen. Both times she was chasing a ball, and she would run towards the ball and then stop and look blank. The first time I didn't know what she was doing and she did it three times until she seized. She also did this once in between the two seizures but it didn't turn into a full seizure. Lately I have been googling seizures caused by head injuries in humans and reading what I can. I don't think I have learnt anything new. I have been wondering if maybe KC's seizures are actual epilepsy and not caused by her head trauma. I guess an MRI could tell me. I'm not curious enough to spend the $1500 just yet!