jillybean Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Chloe & I have just started obedience classes a few weeks ago. She's going well so far - has learnt to sit, drop, stay, stand, heel etc. However I've noticed that when I ask her to drop she does it fine, but if I then ask her to stay in a drop she will shift her legs out to the side and sort of lie down (as she would when she's lazing round). I've been told this is a lazy drop and isn't really acceptable. She only does it if she thinks she'll be there for a while. If I ask her to sit then drop then stand she does a normal drop. How can I correct this before it becomes too much of a habit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) I was always told that so long as their bum didn't actually come off the ground it is fine for them to do that. I have seen a lot of trialling dogs roll to the side for drop stays. One lady actually panics if her dog doesn't as there is a good chance he will break stay, if he shifts his weight she knows he isn't going anywhere :D Mind you I don't actually trial so perhaps there are deductions, but I was under the impression there wasn't. Puppy sits (lazy sits) are a no-no though. Edit: Thought I would add that if it worries you then I would try to fix it now. Don't reward her for anything less than perfect, reset her if you need to so she realises that it isn't how you want her to drop. Easier to fix it before the habit becomes ingrained in her mind. Edited February 4, 2008 by DeltaCharlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) I'm not quite sure what your instructor is trying to get at? There is no disadvantage in the dog lying on its hip.........infact it is an advantage during the drop stay. If the dog is dropping normally during the heel pattern.......there is no problem at all. Do you intend to trial?? In the higher classes you need to hold very long stays out of sight. It would be very uncomfortable for a dog to be lying in that position for that period of time. I actually make sure my dog "is" lying on his hip. Does your instructor trial? ETA: If the dog is lying completely on its side in a trial, then it has assumed the "dead dog postion" and would NQ. If that is what she does, and you do not intend to trial.......who cares???! Dog is staying........dog is doing what it is told. Many instructors get caught up trying to fine tune pet owners who couldnt care less. Most exercises will have to be retaught if you later decide to trial anyway, so don't worry. Edited February 4, 2008 by dogdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) ... if I then ask her to stay in a drop she will shift her legs out to the side and sort of lie down ... I presume you mean that she's flipping her hips to one side? Whilst I really love the 'square' drop for its aesthetics and "ready to go-ness" my attitude is that if a dog is comfortable it is more likely to hold its "stay" position. If it is not a problem for the owner, then I've not made it a problem for the dog. If you really want the "square" drop though, you will probably need to do a bit of back-tracking in your training, rewarding only for the "square" pose and, depending on your training method, offering a correction when she moves her muscles as if to flip the hip. I don't trial so I'm not sure what the "requirements" are. But I thought a flipped hip was ok, as was a front paw folded under (which some dogs are prone to do and to me is a sign that it is prepared to stop there for a while). ETA: The only problem with 'flipping the hip' to a drop is that it can get in the way when doing sequences of (eg) stand; drop; stand; sit; etc. But as you've said your girl only gives a 'flipped hip' when preparing for 'stay' work, I don't see it as a problem either. And like dogdude, I'm not sure why your instructor identifies it as an issue. Worth asking him/her? Edited February 4, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvinshep Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 don't get your dog to drop from a sit.....always heel your dog then tell it to drop.....if you take it from a sit, then as you get higher in obedience or trialling training your dog gets that bad habit of dropping when you want him to sit & stay for groups.....so always heel then drop.....if he is on his side that is fine......is he a dead dog (meaning is he laying right on his side) if he is that has to be fixed....but on one side is fine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvinshep Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 if you are going to trial.....a dog rolled onto one side is fine.....as long as the judge does not see light under your dogs bum :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) don't get your dog to drop from a sit.....always heel your dog then tell it to drop.....if you take it from a sit, then as you get higher in obedience or trialling training your dog gets that bad habit of dropping when you want him to sit & stay for groups... Am I too much the trainer and not enough of the trialler to say that this is only avoiding the proofing necessary to ensure that 'sit' is solid, 'drop' is solid and 'stand' is solid, and that the dog understands the difference between all three? Edited February 4, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvinshep Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Erny just so i have not misunderstood you....when you first start obedience training heeling then a drop lets the dog know what a drop is as long as you give the right foot walk & hand signals...then a stand from a heel same as drop....then the footwork tells the dog that you are stopping so they know to sit......i have always trained my dogs that way.....but everyone has different ideas about training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 My girl actually prefers the sphinx drop because she hates ants and likes to keep her tender bits off the ground During a drop stay she might roll over onto one hip but not until she's had a good sniff of the grass to check out for ants. I know a lot of trialling people prefer their dogs to move over onto a hip, but I'm wondering if this habit would slow the dog down during the drops on the move? Must watch at the next trial. Also...what about the change of position exercises? Wouldn't the hip drop slow them down? And wouldn't they be more likely to need to take a step forward in order to stand square when coming out of the drop....mmmm more things to watch out for.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 No....most trialling dogs that are switched on will offer a "crouch style" drop on the move, and do not go down on one hip. For the C.O.P, a folded style drop is essential in avoiding the dog creeping out of postion. I taught it with a lump of steel on the ground. Walked dog up to it in a stand and came to a stop just before it. Dog had to fold backward to avoid it. It can also be taught on top of a stair. Stand dog almost up to the edge and then give drop signal. Dog has to fold back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) Erny just so i have not misunderstood you.... I was referring to the part where you said to never have the dog drop from a sit because it can lead to them making mistakes in trialling. Wasn't picking - and hope my post didn't sound like it. Horses for courses and I know that triallers put in a massive effort to gain the passes they aspire to achieve. But if a dog does drop from a sit when it oughtn't it is a "training" issue and is something that needs to be proofed. IMO, it shouldn't be a matter of 'avoiding' it for fear that the dog will make it a habit. But that is only my opinion ..... as a non-trialling trainer. Edited February 4, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvinshep Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 I understand where your coming from Erny.....there isn't any big deal in dropping from a sit...it is just something that Ihave been taught & I have always done it no you didn't come across nasty everyone has an opinion on some part of their training that someone else might not agree with.....that is why we have great trialling dogs & we have dogs that are working hard to get to be great trialling dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvinshep Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 DD when my dog drops in the ring when in a heeling pattern she drops on her all fours....no laying on one side....it has to be a nice quick drop to the ground.....I agree with you if they went on one side they would have all sorts of trouble getting up to finish their heeling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 My girl actually prefers the sphinx drop because she hates ants and likes to keep her tender bits off the ground .... I think that's a Ridgy thing. My girl (across the bridge now) always sat on her tail too. I notice many Ridgies do that too. Here's a piccy of Kal in her typical "drop" Wouldn't really matter how long the 'stay' was for. If she was in a commanded position, it was always square. She'd even do the square drop of her own choice, unless she was settling down for a snooze or relax on any one of her dozen mats around the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Yes Luvinshep, but I have seen it before Handler obviously walked way too slow in her normal pace,...handler problem. Erny, I am more often than not coming back to my dog after his long down stay to find him in the frog position If I could just work out how to get him to assume that position from the beggining! So far has not affected his score but........... Bloody Staffy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 (edited) Yes Luvinshep, but I have seen it before Handler obviously walked way too slow in her normal pace,...handler problem.Erny, I am more often than not coming back to my dog after his long down stay to find him in the frog position If I could just work out how to get him to assume that position from the beggining! So far has not affected his score but........... Bloody Staffy Can't say I've ever tried for training the staffy 'frog' drop. But I wonder if it could be assumed by giving a forward hand signal (hand signal as though to down but bring hand a bit forward as it gets closer to the ground .... where staffy's nose follows it - if that makes sense?) instead of a straight down signal. Do you get my drift? Kind of like a combo drop with a minute 'crawl' forward ... ETA: That's of course, if you really do want the 'frog' drop to be THE drop. Edited February 4, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Not as silly as it sounds! If he's happy.....so am I! It is definately what he does to get comfy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Posted February 4, 2008 Share Posted February 4, 2008 Cooper will do a beautiful square drop while heeling. It is needed to for a quick get up and go, but when in the stays he rolls into his hip straight away. I dont mind this one bit as I know he isn't going anywhere when he's in that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 In a stay situation I wouldn't be too fussed about it - my dog used to "flop drop" all the time until I taught her a sphinx drop under a different hand signal when she was about 12 months old. So in heeling work, I use the signal for the sphinx drop. In a stay, I give her the "flop drop" signal. She's happy to do either for whatever period of time but I'm happier if she drops her hip straight up as that minimizes the chance of her dropping it during the stay itself, especially when its hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 She's happy to do either for whatever period of time but I'm happier if she drops her hip straight up as that minimizes the chance of her dropping it during the stay itself, especially when its hot. Me too, I much rather Cooper go onto his hip straight away in the stays which he does cos he knows he'll be there for a bit. It makes me less worried cos then he's not wiggling around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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