Growling In Pups

[percyk]

i visited a friend who has three dogs

two older ones and a new bigger pup who is fast outgrowing the older smaller dogs

she has been reading what she can about pack behaviour and belongs to another forum

so far she has had various view points presented to her about her pup growling at her

( i have limited experience with this - my dogs havent been growlers except for one standard poodle which was a bought as a childs pet and subsequently returned to the breeder after a behaviourist assessed him)

what happens is this

the male pup is confident round people and has been socialised - will be going to obedience when he turns 14 weeks and his shots uptodate

but

when he is corrected - eg grabbing food from the counter ( my friend pulls him off by the collar and says no)

he will growl

and he has begun to growl at times when he is in his basket

none of my dogs have been growlers except on occasion when theyre with a bone and another dog settles too close and certainly never to me or the kids

she is hoping obedience will help

she does walk all the three dogs together and there is no problem

one of her dogs is more possessive of her and is trying hard to fit the pup into a more submissive rung on the ladder

any tips here folk ?

has anybody started with such a dog and actually tamed the beast successfully?

she is not using any harsh punishments -tries to distract and rewards for good behaviour

the dog seems to have lots of potential and is quite obedient

im sure there is sighthound in him - suddenly his nose has become awfully long!

they got him from a litter out in the sticks - bit of an impulse buy i think and im not sure how she will cope with a big pup - judging by his paws he will be a pretty big boy

im not very good at breed interpretation but i think hed have grey or whippet in him but his coat is pretty silky with a bit of feathering on his floppy ears

his mother was a total bitzer - so many things in her that the owner didnt know what she was- looked a bit like a thinly built german shepherd cross my friend says- mother was very sociable but father was unknown

she's got pretty big things planned for him and is determined to make it work but is worried that her alpha is not working ( yep she knows about all the things you do to establish leadership but the pup is still growling so she isnt very effective im guessing in every encounter)

[poodlefan]

Alphas don't tolerate poor behaviour. They use negative reinforcement to set boundaries on what is and is not acceptable.

Sounds like it could be dominance related BUT your friend would benefit from some decent professional help. the earlier she gets it, the better chance she has of sorting this out. I honestly think that a 'no negative reinforcement' approach may not benefit this dog but that doesn't require her to get heavy handed.

I wonder if he has any dingo blood.. wild dogs are a very different to domestic breeds.

[Kelpie-i]

Yes I used to have a dog like this many years ago and it wasn't an easy dog to live with.

Dogs who commence life challenging the leader/s, will continue to challenge all their lives. They are leader or "dominant" type dogs by nature, just like some humans are very strong natured and go on to become powerful business people.

This type of dog requires an experienced handler who will provide this dog with loads of stimulation and work, as this is the only way to live with this type of dog. Stepping up leadership skills and keeping them at a high level is also imperative.

I say all of the above, provided this pup is well socialised and is not displaying this behaviour through any form of fear.

[percyk]

Alphas don't tolerate poor behaviour. They use negative reinforcement to set boundaries on what is and is not acceptable.

Sounds like it could be dominance related BUT your friend would benefit from some decent professional help. the earlier she gets it, the better chance she has of sorting this out. I honestly think that a 'no negative reinforcement' approach may not benefit this dog but that doesn't require her to get heavy handed.

I wonder if he has any dingo blood.. wild dogs are a very different to domestic breeds.

hey didnt think of dingo blood

wonder if the big skull is a dominant gene

like i said i thought rough collie or sighthound from the long snout

thanks for your input Poodlefan!

[percyk]

Yes I used to have a dog like this many years ago and it wasn't an easy dog to live with.

Dogs who commence life challenging the leader/s, will continue to challenge all their lives. They are leader or "dominant" type dogs by nature, just like some humans are very strong natured and go on to become powerful business people.

This type of dog requires an experienced handler who will provide this dog with loads of stimulation and work, as this is the only way to live with this type of dog. Stepping up leadership skills and keeping them at a high level is also imperative.

I say all of the above, provided this pup is well socialised and is not displaying this behaviour through any form of fear.

thats the trouble with vaccinations isnt it!

we dont take our dogs out early enough i feel

this big pup has been out for a couple of weeks ( we took to my shops once for a coffee and he was great with people and ignored other dogs)

i talked to her tonight and she saysthat he jumps up when she is walking him initially to mouth at her at times but stops ok when she corrects - walks well at heel for a pup

i had a turn of the lead with him - he was tired so cooperated lol

as for the dominance

i dont know

see... he was lying on his back and letting her smaller dogs chew at him

and he was puppy pouncing a lot and being vocal in a playful way - so i dont think the dogs are an issue

funny how he accepts being dominated by them and not her...

as for fear...hes not impressed by big dogs - a lab came over to sniff at the shops and he slunk away - no growling and he sticks close to his owner

hes very sweet most of the time - lots of licking and he does that paw thing too -as if he is offering a shake - and i believe that to be a sign of deference/ respect??

he doesnt like his collar taken off so she uses chicken to bribe him every time she takes off his walking collar to distract him from growling and shying away

otherwise he isnt hand shy and doesnt mind his snout being clamped or his head played with - i looked into his mouth , touched him all over .stood over him... rolled him over gently in play to scratch belly- this he all accepted

i havent seen the actual incidents so can only go by what she says and hes been very well behaved around my little dogs who paid him no attention after the first sniff or two

she told me that a friend of hers looked into professional intervention ( dont quote me but i think it was by the dog whisperer people) and they wanted 175 per session- wonder if that would be right?

dont know anything about them really so i couldnt recommend anyone

the behaviourist i met about 20 years ago would be in her 80s i suspect and i dont remember her name

she was good ( i think) but i have so little experience with their kind so would have to go on other people's recommendations.

thanks for your post!

[percyk]

Alphas don't tolerate poor behaviour. They use negative reinforcement to set boundaries on what is and is not acceptable.

Sounds like it could be dominance related BUT your friend would benefit from some decent professional help. the earlier she gets it, the better chance she has of sorting this out. I honestly think that a 'no negative reinforcement' approach may not benefit this dog but that doesn't require her to get heavy handed.

I wonder if he has any dingo blood.. wild dogs are a very different to domestic breeds.

another thing Poodlefan

(and i hate when you read quite the opposite to what youve been doing lol but ...)

what about the theory that negative reinforcement can make these kind of pups more aggressive...?

depends what you mean about neg reinforcement i suppose - just a choker chain correction, a sharp 'no'?

definitely no alpha rolls hey lol

[poodlefan]

Alphas don't tolerate poor behaviour. They use negative reinforcement to set boundaries on what is and is not acceptable.

Sounds like it could be dominance related BUT your friend would benefit from some decent professional help. the earlier she gets it, the better chance she has of sorting this out. I honestly think that a 'no negative reinforcement' approach may not benefit this dog but that doesn't require her to get heavy handed.

I wonder if he has any dingo blood.. wild dogs are a very different to domestic breeds.

another thing Poodlefan

(and i hate when you read quite the opposite to what youve been doing lol but ...)

what about the theory that negative reinforcement can make these kind of pups more aggressive...?

depends what you mean about neg reinforcement i suppose - just a choker chain correction, a sharp 'no'?

definitely no alpha rolls hey lol

If you put a pup in a position where it feels the need to defend itself Percy, then I would agree with that. Aggression is tricky stuff - that's why I said your friend should summon a professional.

However, there's a big difference between ignoring aggression and punishing it in manner that may provoke more of it.

Make sure she gets in someone who's experienced. If she was in Sydney, I'd suggest K9Force.

Sometimes folk will insist that a pup growling is "only playing". Regrettably this isn't always the case.

Edited October 2, 2008 by poodlefan

[percyk]

Alphas don't tolerate poor behaviour. They use negative reinforcement to set boundaries on what is and is not acceptable.

Sounds like it could be dominance related BUT your friend would benefit from some decent professional help. the earlier she gets it, the better chance she has of sorting this out. I honestly think that a 'no negative reinforcement' approach may not benefit this dog but that doesn't require her to get heavy handed.

I wonder if he has any dingo blood.. wild dogs are a very different to domestic breeds.

another thing Poodlefan

(and i hate when you read quite the opposite to what youve been doing lol but ...)

what about the theory that negative reinforcement can make these kind of pups more aggressive...?

depends what you mean about neg reinforcement i suppose - just a choker chain correction, a sharp 'no'?

definitely no alpha rolls hey lol

If you put a pup in a position where it feels the need to defend itself Percy, then I would agree with that. Aggression is tricky stuff - that's why I said your friend should summon a professional.

However, there's a big difference between ignoring aggression and punishing it in manner that may provoke more of it.

Make sure she gets in someone who's experienced. If she was in Sydney, I'd suggest K9Force.

Sometimes folk will insist that a pup growling is "only playing". Regrettably this isn't always the case.

on central coast Poodlefan

what a bummer if it continues and she cant get on top of it

she dug up some article tonight about a guy in the us who had a growling dog who wouldnt let him get him out of his crate without trying to bite- shes going see if she can find his book or training video on sale somewhere - the link wasnt working

[poodlefan]

Percy, she'd do well to book one session with K9 and to travel to Sydney.

You really don't want to muck around with this stuff.

[percyk]

Percy, she'd do well to book one session with K9 and to travel to Sydney.

You really don't want to muck around with this stuff.

thanks Poodlefan

spent the day with her today

walked on the beach with all of our dogs

her pup seemed fine

she can now put on his collar - she fed him bbq chicken the last time she took off and put on the collar a few times and he was fine when i handled him today

he does jump a little to lick my kids faces and gets a little excited when hes running with them on the flat but she reckons hes mouthing less

i pulled him off her dishwasher when the door was down and he didnt object - i just said NO firmly and pulled him then made him sit

hes hopeless at eye contact

have to call him several times to get his attention - thats why im thinking hes got either deerhound or whippet in him lol

he just doesnt look you in the eye- dont dominant dogs look you in the eye?