Abandoment Training For Dog Aggression

[Nekhbet]

choking isnt a correction per say its a control method when the sh*ts about to hit the fan. I have seen it used on a dog and I dont have a problem with it if its the only control method left available. You dont hang them until they're blue, you increase the pressure to redirect the brain - calm down and release pressure or carry on like a pork chop and be uncomfortable.

Varying pressure around the throat is a good method and works better then having to rip a dog off its feet. Large and giant breeds are easier to control as well.

if giant leash corrections dont work you're correcting incorrectly or too late.

[Staranais]

choking isnt a correction per say its a control method when the sh*ts about to hit the fan.

I think that's pretty much what I said?

if giant leash corrections dont work you're correcting incorrectly or too late.

Too late in our case, yes probably, but it can be bloody hard to correct a dog that goes from 0 - 100 as quick as you can blink with very few warning signs. No trainers I consulted managed it effectively enough to change his behaviour, and I surely couldn't.

I've also personally grown very wary of any "anti-aggression" methods that simply punish a dog into not daring to aggress any more. I'd far prefer to change the dog's emotional reaction towards the other dogs or animals, so he doesn't see them as prey or isn't actually scared by them, doesn't become adrenalised, so doesn't feel any need to fight or chase. Rather that merely correcting him so that even though he'd still LIKE to fight or chase, he doesn't dare to. That's better than nothing, but in my world not ideal.

[Rex]

Honestly I have had much more success with a clicker and treats in changing my dog's response to seeing another dog coming than I did by using leash corrections. Part of this is likely to be the change in my body language and handling techniques as I am calmer as I am giving the dog an opportunity to gain a reward rather than waiting to give a correction. While I still have to give her distance from other dogs, her demeanor is much happier and she is happy to give me attention rather than give the other dog her whole focus with negativity. My aim is not to get her to know she can't get other dogs but to reduce her desire to. Luckily she is very food motivated and very keen to work with clicker and treats

Tried that method with my GSD, $600 worth of dog whispering that didn't work, useless in fact with dog/stranger aggression. A business customer of ours we learned was a Police K9 trainer, was interested in our dog, and spent time with us teaching his methods of correction which worked instantly with drastic improvements. 3 months prior, my wife wouldn't walk our GSD after being pulled off her feet and bruising her leg badly nick naming him "the devil dog". Now, he walks calmly past dogs and strangers on a loose leash, a 12 year old child could handle him.

[Rex]

Ihave dealt with many aggressive dogs- aggressive to dogs and/ or people and i have NEVER had to 'string one up until they pass out'. Tell me Rex- what does a dog who has passed out actually learn? And yes I do use corrections- but not like that. I hate the fact that people may think because i say i use corrections that i would be the same as someone who advocates cutting off a dogs oxygen supply.

I have never tried it and hope that I don't need to. It was a procedure told to me by a Police K9 trainer breaking in a dog with severe handler aggression, and I have read about this method also, Leerburg, Koehler etc.

[Rex]

choking isnt a correction per say its a control method when the sh*ts about to hit the fan. I have seen it used on a dog and I dont have a problem with it if its the only control method left available. You dont hang them until they're blue, you increase the pressure to redirect the brain - calm down and release pressure or carry on like a pork chop and be uncomfortable.

Varying pressure around the throat is a good method and works better then having to rip a dog off its feet. Large and giant breeds are easier to control as well.

if giant leash corrections dont work you're correcting incorrectly or too late.

That's what I was taught in the timing of the correction. When the dog has already reached the end of the leash and is fired up in aggression, it's too late to try and admininster any jerking leash corrections, in fact it makes thing worse by agitating the dog to fire up harder and more aggressively. The exercise at that point is blown and fluffed up, missed the que. All I could do at that point was drag the dog away briskly in the opposite direction, then praise him when he caught up focused back upon me. Having said that, GSD's are not predatory in aggression "get'em at all costs", they react more to the closeness of the threat. Once distance has been achieved between you and what the dog perceives as a threat, they give it up in belief I guess that the threatening situation has been resolved.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Rex

[Rex]

Honestly I have had much more success with a clicker and treats in changing my dog's response to seeing another dog coming than I did by using leash corrections. Part of this is likely to be the change in my body language and handling techniques as I am calmer as I am giving the dog an opportunity to gain a reward rather than waiting to give a correction. While I still have to give her distance from other dogs, her demeanor is much happier and she is happy to give me attention rather than give the other dog her whole focus with negativity. My aim is not to get her to know she can't get other dogs but to reduce her desire to. Luckily she is very food motivated and very keen to work with clicker and treats

What happens in a situation without a clicker and treat say for instance the dog slipped past you at the gate whilst focusing on a dog walking past on the street when the dog has learned to obey a click and reward???.

[Rex]

OMG ... what the ... now I really HAVE read anything ....

there are many different methods and which one depends on the individual dog.

check chains are not for applying constant pressure to the throat, DD collars are. Check chains were made for short sharp corrections, DD collars were for varying pressure and suppression work.

Perhaps if you choked your dog out consistently the moment he started to think about being aggressive it would work,

when do you think any correction should be applied, when your dogs already flipping out or before he gets to that uncontrollable stage.

Who were you quoting above, Nekhbet? I can't find it.

Me, that's why I replied. I'd told Rex that punishing my dog with an "almighty leash correction" as recommended hadn't stopped his aggressive behaviour, and Rex told me that I should have choked him out as a correction instead.

No you didn't Staranais, you said that no form of physical punishment will stop your dog when it's in the zone or something to that effect and I pointed out that the physical effect of choking out will definitely stop it.

[corvus]

I can't believe choking a dog out is being discussed in relation to aggression on a public forum. I've had the finger pointed at me for advocating far less dangerous things that still require a small amount of skill reading dogs lest some lurker should actually do what I'm saying.

For any lurkers or visitors, don't even go there. Meeting aggression with aggression is downright dangerous and likely to make the problem worse.

[Rex]

The dog once heavily distracted forgets it's on the leash and the shock of coming to dead stop and suddenly whipped around in the oppposite direction, it learns two things. Firstly no matter how hard he/she trys to get another dog, the attempt has a 100% failure rate and secondly the sudden stop and whip around is an unpleasant experience that the dog learns was self inflicted. The dog doesn't realise that the handler did anything and when the dog catches back up into a heel position, you praise and pat the dog for heeling beside you where he/she is supposed to be. The dog learns the comfort zone and how pleasant it is to walk by your side and follow your every move. When the situation arises where the dog attempts to bolt out the gate seeing another dog across the road, on a "leave it" command the dog will turn about off leash and come back.

How can you be sure the dog learns exactly those two things? What happens if the dog never realises that attempting to get to another dog has 100% failure rate because the dog is always so worked up at that point that it can't learn very much at all and just reacts to the frustration of not being able to reach its target? And then let's say the dog is like that dog I grew up with and associates the unpleasant experience of being whipped around with the sight of other dogs it wants to get at. Say the dog never learns that this is self-inflicted because at the time of the correction it is wholly focused on the object of its fear/distress and is not even consciously aware of what it is doing and what you are telling it to do. Mixing pain and fear is, IMO, a recipe for disaster. Stringing a dog up until it passes out? That's a pretty violent thing to do to an animal. I'd rather PTS.

All I can tell you is my experience with a dog exhibiting civil aggression towards strangers and other dogs with the corrections beginning with treat training (positive reinforcement) costing me $600 worth of methods that failed and a trainer who concluded that my dog was basically a head case, untrainable???. With the fortune of having a Police K9 trainer who specialises in GSD's and trains in aggression test the dog and conclude that he was a perfect candidate for Police/security work with a good hard temperament and steady nerve, things dramactically changed when learning how best to handle this issue.

What I can tell you based on the K9 trainer's methods which does include some of the William Koehler leash correction techniques, it's transformed my dog from a situation where he wanted to attack/bite everyone, into a civilised gentleman that responds to voice commands on or off leash over a 3 month period of intensive training.

Just having returned home from a walk and thinking about this thread on the way, I took a route along a series of backfences where my dog being previously an aggressive fence fighter to dogs barking on the other side, I unleashed him through that section around a 1 km long. As the dog's rushed at their back fences barking furiously which was about 5 or 6 houses in that stretch, my dog didn't venture more than a leash distance from heel with "leave it" commands. At the last house of barking dogs, he looked in the direction of the house with alertness, but remained at heel, no commands, I didnt say anything except "good boy" and a pat & rub as we passed by.

I conclude that the leash training and correction methods for my dog works???. My wife achieved the same thing with our 6 year old Golden Retriever who was a life long cronic leash puller and corrected the problem in two walking sessions with command's & leash corrections. Her command to him is "loose leash" and he backs into heel immediately???.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Rex

[huski]

Thanks for the clarification on Leerburg guys - I remember a thread that talked about it but I wasn't 100% sure!

I had a search around and found this on the Leerburg site:

"I have owned some nasty dogs in my life. I own a male right now that is as bad as anything I have ever seen - probably worse than anything most people will ever see in their life (I bought him when he was 5 years old). This dog will viscously try and attack another dog through a fence when I let him out of the kennel. This is going to blow the minds of the Goody-two-shoes and the phooo phooo Halty and Clicker people that read my web site - but I have stopped this dog’s fence fighting. It took three 30 second training sessions. I simply told him “NO” and hit him over the head with a kennel shovel. The reason it took three sessions was because I did not know how thick this dog’s head was - I really had to whack him hard on the third session to get his attention. Now he knows that there are consequences to fence fighting."

http://leerburg.com/qaaggres.htm

I think this is what I remember from Midol's thread - it wasn't about breaking up a fight (I'd do anything to save my dog too) but about stopping a dog from fence fighting. Not a method I would want to use on my dog IMO.

[Kavik]

Honestly I have had much more success with a clicker and treats in changing my dog's response to seeing another dog coming than I did by using leash corrections. Part of this is likely to be the change in my body language and handling techniques as I am calmer as I am giving the dog an opportunity to gain a reward rather than waiting to give a correction. While I still have to give her distance from other dogs, her demeanor is much happier and she is happy to give me attention rather than give the other dog her whole focus with negativity. My aim is not to get her to know she can't get other dogs but to reduce her desire to. Luckily she is very food motivated and very keen to work with clicker and treats

What happens in a situation without a clicker and treat say for instance the dog slipped past you at the gate whilst focusing on a dog walking past on the street when the dog has learned to obey a click and reward???.

I will say honestly that it would be a bad thing if my dog slipped past me at the gate while focussing on a dog walking past. Too late to do much but try to grab her somehow by that stage. I certainly hope this would never happen. Since my front yard is fenced and she can't see out, and she does not go out the front door (into front fenced area) without a lead on she would not get the opportunity.

[Rex]

Honestly I have had much more success with a clicker and treats in changing my dog's response to seeing another dog coming than I did by using leash corrections. Part of this is likely to be the change in my body language and handling techniques as I am calmer as I am giving the dog an opportunity to gain a reward rather than waiting to give a correction. While I still have to give her distance from other dogs, her demeanor is much happier and she is happy to give me attention rather than give the other dog her whole focus with negativity. My aim is not to get her to know she can't get other dogs but to reduce her desire to. Luckily she is very food motivated and very keen to work with clicker and treats

What happens in a situation without a clicker and treat say for instance the dog slipped past you at the gate whilst focusing on a dog walking past on the street when the dog has learned to obey a click and reward???.

I will say honestly that it would be a bad thing if my dog slipped past me at the gate while focussing on a dog walking past. Too late to do much but try to grab her somehow by that stage. I certainly hope this would never happen. Since my front yard is fenced and she can't see out, and she does not go out the front door (into front fenced area) without a lead on she would not get the opportunity.

The Police K9 trainer who assisted us with our GSD, explained in his opinion that clicker/treat training methods were unreliable that the dog "must" obey voice commands at all times. He said that complete positive reinforcement methods although can and do work for family pet situations to reach a reasonable level of obedience, they don't work in Police dog training were a dog must work in real time life and death situations that occur in the job. He demonstrated this with our dog fired up at the fence and offering him a piece of chicken. He wasn't interested in the treat until the dog he was barking at on the street had passed by, then he came back looking for the piece of chicken???. He then told us that all is needed, is a leash and your voice, no treats whatsoever whilst training???. He believed that the clicker/treat method taught the dog to respond to the clicker for a treat which although a distraction away from what it was doing, it didn't teach the dog what you wanted it to do in any particular circumstances.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Rex

[corvus]

For a GSD maybe! I'd like to see someone coerce a dog not particularly well known for its biddability without treats. At least in the beginning, surely?

Mind you, I know someone overseas who is very heavily into Schutzhund stuff and one of her instructors used to train police dogs. She tells me he uses verbal corrections because training in high drive with a hard dog inevitably leads to moments when you have to be able to tell the dog to ease up or stop right now, but she says that's the extent of aversives. Training new behaviours is definitely all positive. I think not much in the way of treats, though. Mostly drive training with bite rags and the likes.

[Kavik]

Certainly a police dog must obey commands at all times. But we are not talking about police dogs not doing what they are told, but about an aggressive (emotional) response to another dog by a dog that does not necessarily have the temperament (especially stability and nerves in the case of my dog ) of a police dog. We are talking about a dog who is scared of thunderstorms/fireworks and buses backfiring.

I started the clicker work with my dog a large distance (across the street) from other dogs, so there was no chance the other dog could decide to come over and say hi (or moronic owners let it) so I could relax and just focus on what my dog was doing. She already knew that click = treat as we had done other clicker work before and we had done attention work with the clicker so she knew if she looked at me she got a click. I used the exercises outlined in the book Click to Calm. It is not so much a bribe system (show dog treat to get dog to stop aggressing) but if you choose to look at me when you see another dog you get click/treat. So dog looks at other dog, looks back at you, click/treat.

Though it does differ in some ways (in that it uses clicker and treats ) I found some of the principles not that different to that of K9 Force in that you have to give the dog the choice/opportunity to look at the other dog and to deal with the other dog coming. Previously I had done the give the dog a treat while another dog passes just to get past them but this did not teach the dog how to deal with it or what to do when another dog came around. Now my dog knows what she has to do when she sees another dog - look at me.

[Staranais]

OMG ... what the ... now I really HAVE read anything ....

there are many different methods and which one depends on the individual dog.

check chains are not for applying constant pressure to the throat, DD collars are. Check chains were made for short sharp corrections, DD collars were for varying pressure and suppression work.

Perhaps if you choked your dog out consistently the moment he started to think about being aggressive it would work,

when do you think any correction should be applied, when your dogs already flipping out or before he gets to that uncontrollable stage.

Who were you quoting above, Nekhbet? I can't find it.

Me, that's why I replied. :p I'd told Rex that punishing my dog with an "almighty leash correction" as recommended hadn't stopped his aggressive behaviour, and Rex told me that I should have choked him out as a correction instead.

No you didn't Staranais, you said that no form of physical punishment will stop your dog when it's in the zone or something to that effect and I pointed out that the physical effect of choking out will definitely stop it.

I think we must be misunderstanding each other then, Rex. I meant that I had found no effective way of punishing the aggression. Punishment (by definition) means that the behaviour must be less likely to occur next time. Just temporarily interrupting the behaviour isn't technically punishment, it's just interrupting the behaviour. So yes certainly I could interrupt his aggression physically, by choking or checking or just dragging him away, but I found it hard to punish the behaviour, since he was just as aggressive the next time we were in the same situation. Do I make better sense?

I'm glad the technique you were shown worked well for your dog. It can be frustrating to shell out big money to trainers who can't deliver (believe me, I've been there and done that, so I can sympathise!)

But different techniques, in my experience, tend to work for different dogs. If Kavik's dog is fearful, then her aim is probably to gently teach her dog there's nothing to be scared of, rather than to scare her dog into never displaying aggression again. That's more reliable in the long run, IMO, since it truly removes the need for her dog to be aggressive, since it doesn't actually feel the fear anymore. (Forgive me if I'm putting words into your mouth, Kavik, or explaining what you're doing incorrectly).

If your dog was just being a wee snot, then the clicker probably wouldn't have worked for you, since your dog really would rather blow you off to try to dominate other dogs rather than get a piece of chicken. Some dogs are like that. Whereas correcting the crap out of Kavik's already soft and nervous dog might have helped, but might also have made her behaviour far worse (by teaching her there's really something to be scared about), or unreliable (by teaching her to mask the warning signs of fear such as growling, resulting in a dog that just "explodes" at other dogs when she gets too scared to contain herself). It does happen, and I have seen it.

I'd also say to your police dog trainer, I bet he uses positive reinforcement really heavily during training, even if he claims he doesn't! If he ever gives his dog a tug toy or ball reward, or ever lets him bite the helper as a reward, well that's positive reinforcement. I've never seen a tracking, airscent or bitework dog trained without lots of positive reinforcement being used, usually in the form of toys/prey drive. It doesn't have to be food to count as positive reinforcement!

Edited July 20, 2009 by Staranais

[Kavik]

I also found that when I tried correcting Zoe for her aggression that I was really stressed every time there was another dog around. Another trainer could do it but it was not the right method for me, I worried about what she was going to do. There was no trust. She didn't trust me to make sure no other dogs came close to her and I didn't trust her not to be aggressive. I ended up thinking more about when I had to correct her. Now I do everything in my power to ensure no other dogs come into her space, she does not meet other dogs EVER unless a loose dog that I cannot prevent and I think some trust is being formed. I am much more relaxed handling her and she seems more relaxed when we come across other dogs, as we have focus training to do. Well, she is not a relaxed dog in general I guess I should say she is less stressed about the other dogs being there.

She has plenty of drive, more than Diesel, and is fun to train on her own. Today I started her and Kaos on the jump grid groundwork for running contacts which she got right the first time, though she will not get to try it for real unless/until I get my own equipment.