Giant/large Breed Desexing

[sas]

Hello all,

I have an English Mastiff male pup, we plan on getting him desexed. Our vet said 6mths but then someone told me that for giant and large breeds you should wait longer.

Does anyone have any advice on this - I know the vet is knowledgeable but in all fairness to them, they can't be expected to be experts on dog breeds when they need to know a bit about all animals!! So would like advice from current/past G/LRG breed owners on this one :-)

Personally, I don't desex males and believe that the negatives outweigh the positives. If sterilising a male to avoid unwanted matings, I prefer a vastectomy to allow the dog to develop essential hormones for good health and growth. In a large breed, 18 months is the earliest I would consider desexing. 6 months is the standard answer which research has confirmed as too early in large breeds.

Thanks for the uneducated comment to a newbe.

[Staranais]

Hello all,

I have an English Mastiff male pup, we plan on getting him desexed. Our vet said 6mths but then someone told me that for giant and large breeds you should wait longer.

Does anyone have any advice on this - I know the vet is knowledgeable but in all fairness to them, they can't be expected to be experts on dog breeds when they need to know a bit about all animals!! So would like advice from current/past G/LRG breed owners on this one :-)

Personally, I don't desex males and believe that the negatives outweigh the positives. If sterilising a male to avoid unwanted matings, I prefer a vastectomy to allow the dog to develop essential hormones for good health and growth. In a large breed, 18 months is the earliest I would consider desexing. 6 months is the standard answer which research has confirmed as too early in large breeds.

Thanks for the uneducated comment to a newbe.

What's uneducated about it?

[sas]

You can desex your dog at any age you wish. If you got on Google right now to research what is a suitable age you cold find an article to back up whichever way you wanted to go.

In short, a dog desexed early will 'generally' end up taller as their growth plates stay open longer and generally leaner than its' undesexed counterparts, male dogs will generally not develop a male looking head and will look more like a bitch.

In Danes, there are plenty that are desexed young and die of old age with early desexing not effecting their lives.

The critical growth period in most giant breeds is 10 months.

There is absolutely no reason to keep a pet dog entire.

Do your research....real research....not from arm chair experts in dog forums and speak to your breeder and make a decision....because all you'll get here is peoples personal opinions.

Edited May 11, 2010 by sas

[sas]

Hello all,

I have an English Mastiff male pup, we plan on getting him desexed. Our vet said 6mths but then someone told me that for giant and large breeds you should wait longer.

Does anyone have any advice on this - I know the vet is knowledgeable but in all fairness to them, they can't be expected to be experts on dog breeds when they need to know a bit about all animals!! So would like advice from current/past G/LRG breed owners on this one :-)

Personally, I don't desex males and believe that the negatives outweigh the positives. If sterilising a male to avoid unwanted matings, I prefer a vastectomy to allow the dog to develop essential hormones for good health and growth. In a large breed, 18 months is the earliest I would consider desexing. 6 months is the standard answer which research has confirmed as too early in large breeds.

Thanks for the uneducated comment to a newbe.

What's uneducated about it?

It's not factual....it's the persons personal opinion.....

research has confirmed 6 months is too early to desex in large breeds? BS to that.

There are a number of Giant Breed breeders who don't really like their dogs desexed early because it's nice them to go longer to grow into what they should look like but in terms of the dogs health those Breeders will also be happy to let you know that nothing bad came of those dogs who were desexed early.

I would actually reccomend to novice giant breed owners to desex their males young especially if they don't seem to be handling their hormones that well.

Edited May 11, 2010 by sas

[Staranais]

Hello all,

I have an English Mastiff male pup, we plan on getting him desexed. Our vet said 6mths but then someone told me that for giant and large breeds you should wait longer.

Does anyone have any advice on this - I know the vet is knowledgeable but in all fairness to them, they can't be expected to be experts on dog breeds when they need to know a bit about all animals!! So would like advice from current/past G/LRG breed owners on this one :-)

Personally, I don't desex males and believe that the negatives outweigh the positives. If sterilising a male to avoid unwanted matings, I prefer a vastectomy to allow the dog to develop essential hormones for good health and growth. In a large breed, 18 months is the earliest I would consider desexing. 6 months is the standard answer which research has confirmed as too early in large breeds.

Thanks for the uneducated comment to a newbe.

What's uneducated about it?

It's not factual....it's the persons personal opinion.....

research has confirmed 6 months is too early to desex in large breeds? BS to that.

Oh, I see. Well, there is probably research both ways. I wouldn't call it necessarily uneducated, though. Some of the specialists at my vet school (for example, my radiology lecturer) also have concerns about the effect of early desexing on skeletal structure, and they're very educated.

[sas]

Hello all,

I have an English Mastiff male pup, we plan on getting him desexed. Our vet said 6mths but then someone told me that for giant and large breeds you should wait longer.

Does anyone have any advice on this - I know the vet is knowledgeable but in all fairness to them, they can't be expected to be experts on dog breeds when they need to know a bit about all animals!! So would like advice from current/past G/LRG breed owners on this one :-)

Personally, I don't desex males and believe that the negatives outweigh the positives. If sterilising a male to avoid unwanted matings, I prefer a vastectomy to allow the dog to develop essential hormones for good health and growth. In a large breed, 18 months is the earliest I would consider desexing. 6 months is the standard answer which research has confirmed as too early in large breeds.

Thanks for the uneducated comment to a newbe.

What's uneducated about it?

It's not factual....it's the persons personal opinion.....

research has confirmed 6 months is too early to desex in large breeds? BS to that.

Oh, I see. Well, there is probably research both ways. I wouldn't call it necessarily uneducated, though. Some of the specialists at my vet school (for example, my radiology lecturer) also have concerns about the effect of early desexing on skeletal structure, and they're very educated.

I understand you're a Vet student....that's nice.

There are specialists that will go either way.

You're actually missing my point....you may only be interested in yours though.

I believe a newbe should be given information from both sides though.....hense encouraging them to research themselves outside the personal opinion of dog forums because in this instance that's all you're going to get.

Your smart alec response is quite disapointng....would expect more maturity from someone studying to become a Vet.

And...I called the comment uneducated not the research....as I said there is research that goes both ways but when speaking to a newbe you don't just put across the version you want.

Edited May 11, 2010 by sas

[Staranais]

I understand you're a Vet student....that's nice.

There are specialists that will go either way.

You're actually missing my point....you may only be interested in yours though.

I believe a newbe should be given information from both sides though.....hense encouraging them to research themselves outside the personal opinion of dog forums because in this instance that's all you're going to get.

And your point is what, exactly? That believing that early desexing can affect skeletal growth is uneducated? That's what you said, and that's what I disagree with. There are educated people that believe exactly that.

And of course there are specialists that believe other things. That's why I said "some" of the specialists, not "all" of the specialists.

[stormie]

This behavioural perception of entire males is blown out of all proportion. The only time that a genuine issue can develop with entire males is in the presence of a bitch in season..........other than that, there is no difference. Desexing isn't a quick fix for a lack of training and in many cases, desexing and specialised training occur at the same time and the desexing get's the recognition for the improvement that the training created too often. Many a time I have seen fear aggressive dogs worsen after desexing and is not the ultimate fix over a proper training schedule for behavioural issues.

Sorry, but disagree totally. My boy changed quite a lot once he reached sexual maturity and at no time did he ever encounter an entire bitch. He began to choose the fight over flight attitude and become much more confident and cockier around other dogs. Now that he's desexed, he's much more chilled out, however some of the behaviour has stuck. Given the choice again, I'd have desexed him around 12months, rather than waiting 18months and done him whilst he was still a naive adolescent.

As for growth, Orbit has filled out and bulked up considerably since desexing. At 18months he was still quite light and one might say lanky, however now, another 18months on, and he's filled right out and bulked up.

Personally, with the larger breeds I'd suggest waiting longer than 6months. But I'd also take into consideration temperament over aesthetics. No point having a bulky entire looking dog if he's a pain in the arse cause hormones got in the way.

[Sharna3]

Thanks once again.

I will definitely do more research and talk to a few breeders. I'm not too worried about aesthetics, I just want to balance as best I can the time he has all his hormones and the time he doesn't to ensure he's sound of growth.

But I do appreciate the opinions and advice offered here too :D

[Kaz]

This behavioural perception of entire males is blown out of all proportion. The only time that a genuine issue can develop with entire males is in the presence of a bitch in season..........other than that, there is no difference. Desexing isn't a quick fix for a lack of training and in many cases, desexing and specialised training occur at the same time and the desexing get's the recognition for the improvement that the training created too often. Many a time I have seen fear aggressive dogs worsen after desexing and is not the ultimate fix over a proper training schedule for behavioural issues.

Ok I too have to disagree with this statement.

I have a desexed dane bitch and two desexed males. They are all very dog social and spend a lot of time on an offleash beach meeting new dogs nearly every day.

Yet there have been problems caused by several (but not all) well trained undesexed males who have become so frantically intent on my girl that I have had to constantly intervene to calm the tension being created with the other males.

With a large/giant breed I would wait as long as I could before desexing but if behavioural issues develop before then that could have a negetive effect on your lifestyle or on your dog's training and socialisation, I would desex at that time.

Sas, you're scary!!!!!

[Black Bronson]

This behavioural perception of entire males is blown out of all proportion. The only time that a genuine issue can develop with entire males is in the presence of a bitch in season..........other than that, there is no difference. Desexing isn't a quick fix for a lack of training and in many cases, desexing and specialised training occur at the same time and the desexing get's the recognition for the improvement that the training created too often. Many a time I have seen fear aggressive dogs worsen after desexing and is not the ultimate fix over a proper training schedule for behavioural issues.

Sorry, but disagree totally. My boy changed quite a lot once he reached sexual maturity and at no time did he ever encounter an entire bitch. He began to choose the fight over flight attitude and become much more confident and cockier around other dogs. Now that he's desexed, he's much more chilled out, however some of the behaviour has stuck. Given the choice again, I'd have desexed him around 12months, rather than waiting 18months and done him whilst he was still a naive adolescent.

As for growth, Orbit has filled out and bulked up considerably since desexing. At 18months he was still quite light and one might say lanky, however now, another 18months on, and he's filled right out and bulked up.

Personally, with the larger breeds I'd suggest waiting longer than 6months. But I'd also take into consideration temperament over aesthetics. No point having a bulky entire looking dog if he's a pain in the arse cause hormones got in the way.

Stormie, flight isn't a good trait in any dog, it's one step away from unpredictable fear biting, confidence and fight is predictable, consistant and trainable. If your boy has a flight attitude, he sounds nervy in the first place???.

[stormie]

When I say flight, I'm talking in terms of avoiding a fight/confrontation, rather than taking it on. I love that if Orbit encounters a dog in a park that wants to go him, he prefers to avoid it by leaving the situation. It's happened once - a Staffy X wanted to kill him and he was frightened and ran away from it. I'd much prefer this than having 60kg of dog to try and pull off another dog every time he's confronted - which being big, is a lot.

But yes, in terms of personality, I would have to say Orbit is known for being a bit of a girl. He frightens himself with his own tail. But he's also quite social and not frightened of other dogs, unless they want to eat him.

Orbit has always come to work with me since he was a pup. He's mixed with the boarding/hospital dogs every day and was always a polite puppy that was happy to play, but did meet submissively. But once he became sexually mature, he began claiming the hospital as his own. Not by marking, but just his attitude. He became cocky and loved trying to intimidate the other dogs. He enjoyed trying to wind them up from the other side of cages because he knew he was safe. His tolerance level for younger dogs also really lowered. I can't really explain it properly in words, but as his owner who is with him almost 24/7, I just saw his attitude change. And my vets who were also with him daily saw it too. We've seen it in a lot of clients dogs who've gone from puppies to adulthood and remained entire. It's a whole new attitude and in all the cases I've seen, there was never an entire bitch involved.

[Cosmolo]

Desexing DOES impact behaviour in many ways- its not a cure all for behaviour problems but that does not mean there is no impact- particularly when it pertains to interaction with other dogs.

I assess dogs each week- some that are entire, and i re assess them after desexing with no other training carried out. There are differences in the dogs behaviour AND the way others respond to him/ her post desexing.

Good on you OP for doing your research.

ETA and clarify- the dogs are assessed at animal shelters where they are going to be desexed regardless of anything else, it is not MY recommendation that has them desexed, nor do i use desexing as the only behaviour modifcation tool at my disposal in ANY case.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Cosmolo

[Black Bronson]

When I say flight, I'm talking in terms of avoiding a fight/confrontation, rather than taking it on. I love that if Orbit encounters a dog in a park that wants to go him, he prefers to avoid it by leaving the situation. It's happened once - a Staffy X wanted to kill him and he was frightened and ran away from it. I'd much prefer this than having 60kg of dog to try and pull off another dog every time he's confronted - which being big, is a lot.

But yes, in terms of personality, I would have to say Orbit is known for being a bit of a girl. He frightens himself with his own tail. But he's also quite social and not frightened of other dogs, unless they want to eat him.

Orbit has always come to work with me since he was a pup. He's mixed with the boarding/hospital dogs every day and was always a polite puppy that was happy to play, but did meet submissively. But once he became sexually mature, he began claiming the hospital as his own. Not by marking, but just his attitude. He became cocky and loved trying to intimidate the other dogs. He enjoyed trying to wind them up from the other side of cages because he knew he was safe. His tolerance level for younger dogs also really lowered. I can't really explain it properly in words, but as his owner who is with him almost 24/7, I just saw his attitude change. And my vets who were also with him daily saw it too. We've seen it in a lot of clients dogs who've gone from puppies to adulthood and remained entire. It's a whole new attitude and in all the cases I've seen, there was never an entire bitch involved.

I understand exactly what you are saying which sounds fairly normal behaviour as a dog matures where submission grows into greater confidence and some behaviours appear for the worse. All I am saying is so often the first recommendation is to desex or being entire is blamed for the behaviour change. Maybe being entire contributes to the behaviour, but the behaviour is trainable. Some believe unless the dog is desexed the behaviour cannot be improved which I disagree.

I don't know if a dog running away from a potential scrap is always the safest option, as weakness and flight to a dominant dog becomes prey and can sometimes make the situation worse. Confidence can avoid fights often where the attacking dog thinks twice when the other stands it ground and a fight doesn't eventuate. With entire males that normally get on well together, the only time I have seen serious aggression with dogs that are essentially friends have been in the presence of a bitch in season. I just feel that too may behavioural problems are blamed upon entirety which many of these issues IMHO are more training and management problems.

[Black Bronson]

Desexing DOES impact behaviour in many ways- its not a cure all for behaviour problems but that does not mean there is no impact- particularly when it pertains to interaction with other dogs.

I assess dogs each week- some that are entire, and i re assess them after desexing with no other training carried out. There are differences in the dogs behaviour AND the way others respond to him/ her post desexing.

Good on you OP for doing your research.

Why don't you try some training then re-assess the situation. Sound's like desexing is your first recommendation when faced with behavioural issues with an entire dog.........yes???

[Cosmolo]

NO black bronson- you have misunderstood. I am not referring to clients dogs, i am referring to dogs in animal shelters where at times there is no training currently available for them. Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions! These dogs are ALL going to be desexed anyway- it is NOT my recommendation in place of training.

[sas]

Black Bronson, are you a trainer or behaviourist or someone who has worked with a number of dogs who were entire and now desexed?

[stormie]

When I say flight, I'm talking in terms of avoiding a fight/confrontation, rather than taking it on. I love that if Orbit encounters a dog in a park that wants to go him, he prefers to avoid it by leaving the situation. It's happened once - a Staffy X wanted to kill him and he was frightened and ran away from it. I'd much prefer this than having 60kg of dog to try and pull off another dog every time he's confronted - which being big, is a lot.

But yes, in terms of personality, I would have to say Orbit is known for being a bit of a girl. He frightens himself with his own tail. But he's also quite social and not frightened of other dogs, unless they want to eat him.

Orbit has always come to work with me since he was a pup. He's mixed with the boarding/hospital dogs every day and was always a polite puppy that was happy to play, but did meet submissively. But once he became sexually mature, he began claiming the hospital as his own. Not by marking, but just his attitude. He became cocky and loved trying to intimidate the other dogs. He enjoyed trying to wind them up from the other side of cages because he knew he was safe. His tolerance level for younger dogs also really lowered. I can't really explain it properly in words, but as his owner who is with him almost 24/7, I just saw his attitude change. And my vets who were also with him daily saw it too. We've seen it in a lot of clients dogs who've gone from puppies to adulthood and remained entire. It's a whole new attitude and in all the cases I've seen, there was never an entire bitch involved.

I understand exactly what you are saying which sounds fairly normal behaviour as a dog matures where submission grows into greater confidence and some behaviours appear for the worse. All I am saying is so often the first recommendation is to desex or being entire is blamed for the behaviour change. Maybe being entire contributes to the behaviour, but the behaviour is trainable. Some believe unless the dog is desexed the behaviour cannot be improved which I disagree.

I don't know if a dog running away from a potential scrap is always the safest option, as weakness and flight to a dominant dog becomes prey and can sometimes make the situation worse. Confidence can avoid fights often where the attacking dog thinks twice when the other stands it ground and a fight doesn't eventuate. With entire males that normally get on well together, the only time I have seen serious aggression with dogs that are essentially friends have been in the presence of a bitch in season. I just feel that too may behavioural problems are blamed upon entirety which many of these issues IMHO are more training and management problems.

Well, in my experience, most fights come to and end when one backs down and submits to the other. So again, I'd rather have a dog who takes 'flight' from a fight with a dog I know nothing about, than want to take it on. Most dogs fight for hierarchy, not just to kill and I think in the moment of confrontation, if a dog was wanting to take on Orbit, him running away submissively is going to be the best course of action as by acting submissively, the other dog is more likely to feel its won by chasing Orbit away, and leave him, rather than seeing him as a challenge, and then suddenly as prey??

[furballs]

When I say flight, I'm talking in terms of avoiding a fight/confrontation, rather than taking it on. I love that if Orbit encounters a dog in a park that wants to go him, he prefers to avoid it by leaving the situation. It's happened once - a Staffy X wanted to kill him and he was frightened and ran away from it. I'd much prefer this than having 60kg of dog to try and pull off another dog every time he's confronted - which being big, is a lot.

But yes, in terms of personality, I would have to say Orbit is known for being a bit of a girl. He frightens himself with his own tail. But he's also quite social and not frightened of other dogs, unless they want to eat him.

Orbit has always come to work with me since he was a pup. He's mixed with the boarding/hospital dogs every day and was always a polite puppy that was happy to play, but did meet submissively. But once he became sexually mature, he began claiming the hospital as his own. Not by marking, but just his attitude. He became cocky and loved trying to intimidate the other dogs. He enjoyed trying to wind them up from the other side of cages because he knew he was safe. His tolerance level for younger dogs also really lowered. I can't really explain it properly in words, but as his owner who is with him almost 24/7, I just saw his attitude change. And my vets who were also with him daily saw it too. We've seen it in a lot of clients dogs who've gone from puppies to adulthood and remained entire. It's a whole new attitude and in all the cases I've seen, there was never an entire bitch involved.

I understand exactly what you are saying which sounds fairly normal behaviour as a dog matures where submission grows into greater confidence and some behaviours appear for the worse. All I am saying is so often the first recommendation is to desex or being entire is blamed for the behaviour change. Maybe being entire contributes to the behaviour, but the behaviour is trainable. Some believe unless the dog is desexed the behaviour cannot be improved which I disagree.

I don't know if a dog running away from a potential scrap is always the safest option, as weakness and flight to a dominant dog becomes prey and can sometimes make the situation worse. Confidence can avoid fights often where the attacking dog thinks twice when the other stands it ground and a fight doesn't eventuate. With entire males that normally get on well together, the only time I have seen serious aggression with dogs that are essentially friends have been in the presence of a bitch in season. I just feel that too may behavioural problems are blamed upon entirety which many of these issues IMHO are more training and management problems.

Well, in my experience, most fights come to and end when one backs down and submits to the other. So again, I'd rather have a dog who takes 'flight' from a fight with a dog I know nothing about, than want to take it on. Most dogs fight for hierarchy, not just to kill and I think in the moment of confrontation, if a dog was wanting to take on Orbit, him running away submissively is going to be the best course of action as by acting submissively, the other dog is more likely to feel its won by chasing Orbit away, and leave him, rather than seeing him as a challenge, and then suddenly as prey??

It's true that most dogs will scrap it out until one backs down which normally happens pretty quickly. My BC was desexed at 6 months and attacks other dogs, not just a normal attack, a very scarey psychotic attack with so much anger that the other dog doesn't see it coming and doesn't know what to do. The other dog is usually laying on is back yelping but she keeps going until I remove her jaw from them. I believe my BCs behaviour is due to being desexed too young, she has developed so many health problems which, after reading about it, seem to be caused by young desexing.

[Cosmolo]

I have never seen a case where being desexed early could be the sole cause of aggression issues. furballs- has your dog been diagnosed by a behaviourist?