Retrieve

[pipsqueak]

I know I could shape it with a clicker and food, but I kinda want to shape it with a toy instead. Because I'm still working on getting him to transition from play rewards to food rewards smoothly, and I'm too lazy to fade food rewards. Blah, tedious. I wanted to use the ball at the park where he's often too aroused to be particularly interested in food, but will happily work for a more active reward. Can I teach him to bring his ball back with toys, or should I just get off my butt and get the treats out of the fridge?

If your dog finds food more rewarding than play, then why not use food? (Apart from you seem to want to change the reward for your own reasons????) Reward is what the dog chooses...

[Staranais]

I wanted to use the ball catch as a reward. It's not a chase after the ball and stop it thing, it's a come here and catch this ball I'm going to toss you thing. I don't really mind that he wants to parade it except that as long as he's parading it I can't do anything else with him. And sooner or later he'll drop the ball and then I'll have to go get it! Better in my mind that he bring it back when cued.

Um I see, fair enough. I personally prefer to have the toy only being "fun" when I'm involved, just makes it much easier for training since the dog can't ever self reward (I can leave the toy on the ground for example & practice our heeling over it, if she picks up the toy before I cue her to do so, I simply refuse to play so she hasn't been rewarded & ask her to put it back down & try again). Also makes it easier to train a nice out in high drive since I can just NRM & walk off if she doesn't out when asked to do so, and she is not rewarded even though she is still holding the toy.

But each to their own.

So analysing it, your problem really is (IMO) that he likes parading more than he likes catching (this must be the case or else he'd forgo parading in order to return it to get the chance to catch it again). Does he like tug better than parading? If so, can you cue him to come back to you & tug after he has caught instead of parading (use a ball on a string so you can tug with it).

Or I guess another option would be to have two toys & as soon as he caught the first one, you make it really clear that your toy is far cooler (run away from the dog waving your toy & squealing happily until his attention is back on you again) & shape him brining back the first toy in order to get the second one?

[corvus]

He doesn't find food more rewarding than play. He obviously finds the catch and victory lap highly rewarding or he wouldn't do it so much. I can teach him with pretty much any reward as he's pretty nutty about rewards in general, so I have the luxury of being able to pick and choose.

I see what you're saying about the toy only being fun when you're involved, Star, and I'm not dismissing that by any means. In fact, I'm trying to align more with that philosophy with catch in making it about facing me and waiting for the signal and then bringing it back as opposed to running off to play with it on his own. If I hadn't spent the last year playing tug with him to the exclusion of all else to the point where if cued to tug he won't even look for where the toy is and just spins and jumps on me, then I don't think I'd be using catch with him at all. Sometimes it's good for him to be rewarded away from me (with my input/cue/mark) so he doesn't automatically run back to me every time I mark him. I don't want him to be self-rewarding, but I don't need him to be coming to me every time I mark him, either.

He likes parading more than catching and tugging, but he doesn't parade a tug toy, only the ball. So I'm teaching him to retrieve a tug toy with the plan to put it on cue and generalise it to the ball and anything else as well. Reframing the exercise, kinda.

[Staranais]

If I hadn't spent the last year playing tug with him to the exclusion of all else to the point where if cued to tug he won't even look for where the toy is and just spins and jumps on me, then I don't think I'd be using catch with him at all. Sometimes it's good for him to be rewarded away from me (with my input/cue/mark) so he doesn't automatically run back to me every time I mark him.

Hmmm, but I think one of the advantages of making sure you are an integral part of the reward is that you can easily use a tug off your body as a reward.

When I give the release word, my girl doesn't always spin & jump straight at me, she will only do that if I have already shown her that I have a tug for her to bite. If I have put the tug across the other side of the room while we are working, then she will run to that on the release command & bring it back so I can tug with her. Or sometimes I will start the session with no tug on my person at all, & after I release her I cue her to go find me one, & she'll zoom round the room trying to find where I've stashed her tug, then bring it back to play.

So you can train with tug rewards so that a dog doesn't automatically orient to you on the release cue - but IMO you can only do so easily so long as the play interaction with you is the actual reward (rather than the toy itself being the actual reward), so your dog doesn't try to self reward while you are working by nicking off and grabbing the tug before you give the marker/release cue.

Kind of off topic, sorry, but vaguely related to your problem I think.

He likes parading more than catching and tugging, but he doesn't parade a tug toy, only the ball. So I'm teaching him to retrieve a tug toy with the plan to put it on cue and generalise it to the ball and anything else as well. Reframing the exercise, kinda.

Oh, interesting. So his preferences are parade > tug > catching (?) Let us know how you go shaping the retrieve with just a tug & generalising to a ball.

[Malinworx]

Staranais, your dogs is just like her mummy.

I'll throw my thoughts into the pot. I think a long line is definitely worth a try. If you want to make the throw and catch the reward perhaps you need to work on the release of the toy and reward that release immediately with a throw and catch so the dog learns as soon as they release the toy the game will continue.

[Staranais]

Staranais, your dogs is just like her mummy.

LOL, I hope so, Indy sounds like lots of fun to train & trial. And she's pretty!

[Malinworx]

I am very spoilt. Indy is an absolute joy. She is too smart at times which has it's own challenges. The working Mals are the best kept secret away from Europe. I have never seen a breed so obsessive about training, they love it.

I am led to believe that in Europe they are now considered the number 1 working breed over the German Shepherds. Many German Shepherd owners are making the switch.

[Vickie]

I did a session with a dog who wanted to run laps & play with the ball instead of returning it last week.

I wish I had videoed it. LOL, I estimated it would take me 10 mins to get him bringing it to my feet & was pretty spot on with the timing . We then spent time getting him to bring it back to his owner, he needed to learn it again since he already had an established routine of not returning it to her. That took about 5 mins. I haven't heard from her since, but am hoping that she has stuck to our plan & he is still retrieving instantly.

Some things we did:

1. Throw it, but not too far.

2. As soon as he picks it up, run away from him calling him.

3. Verbally mark any forward steps towards you. (He was dropping the ball at a verbal marker)

4. if not dropping the ball, this is where I would reward with something else, so they drop it

5. As soon as the ball is dropped, get the ball & repeat the process.

6. Delay the verbal marker so dog is taking more steps towards you

7. If the dogs dives on the ball as you get to it, using a stand up palms out body blocking language & a word such as stop. Try not to let the dog beat you & get the ball. If he does, run away again (step 2).

8. When the dog is consistently taking a number of steps, ie bringing it most of the way to you, then focus on throwing the ball really fast as soon as it is dropped. Aim to replae the fast throwing of the ball with your external reward if you are using one.

9. Once the dog truly understands that the faster they bring it back, the quicker you will throw it, then work on the exact placement of the ball. Some dogs respond to pointing on the ground & enthusiastic requests, others need you to go back to taking a step or 2 backwards.

All of the above I have done with dogs who already had a high value for chasing a ball. I would use other methods as well if the dog did not put high enough value on the ball.

[Staranais]

I am very spoilt. Indy is an absolute joy. She is too smart at times which has it's own challenges. The working Mals are the best kept secret away from Europe. I have never seen a breed so obsessive about training, they love it.

Yes, Fledgie is the same, she absolutely loves to learn, and loves to chase & bite things. The only trouble is that she hasn't yet really grown an off switch. She wants to do stuff all the time, and reacts to absolutely every noise in the environment. She'll settle if I tell her to do so, but as soon as she wakes up... it's game on again! So living with her is lots of fun, but I guess a big commitment too.

She's very social too, an absolute sweetie with people.

Sorry for taking over your thread, Corvus!

[corvus]

I did a session with a dog who wanted to run laps & play with the ball instead of returning it last week.

I wish I had videoed it. LOL, I estimated it would take me 10 mins to get him bringing it to my feet & was pretty spot on with the timing ;) . We then spent time getting him to bring it back to his owner, he needed to learn it again since he already had an established routine of not returning it to her. That took about 5 mins. I haven't heard from her since, but am hoping that she has stuck to our plan & he is still retrieving instantly.

Some things we did:

1. Throw it, but not too far.

2. As soon as he picks it up, run away from him calling him.

3. Verbally mark any forward steps towards you. (He was dropping the ball at a verbal marker)

4. if not dropping the ball, this is where I would reward with something else, so they drop it

5. As soon as the ball is dropped, get the ball & repeat the process.

6. Delay the verbal marker so dog is taking more steps towards you

7. If the dogs dives on the ball as you get to it, using a stand up palms out body blocking language & a word such as stop. Try not to let the dog beat you & get the ball. If he does, run away again (step 2).

8. When the dog is consistently taking a number of steps, ie bringing it most of the way to you, then focus on throwing the ball really fast as soon as it is dropped. Aim to replae the fast throwing of the ball with your external reward if you are using one.

9. Once the dog truly understands that the faster they bring it back, the quicker you will throw it, then work on the exact placement of the ball. Some dogs respond to pointing on the ground & enthusiastic requests, others need you to go back to taking a step or 2 backwards.

All of the above I have done with dogs who already had a high value for chasing a ball. I would use other methods as well if the dog did not put high enough value on the ball.

Thanks Vickie, that was very comprehensive!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

You can choose to put the line on the ball (ball on a string), or the dog.

I think it would be more effective to use a ball you can reel in. Because that wouldn't stop the dog from making choices but would stop the ball being taken for a victory lap.

I've got a short fat rope on my ball (everlast fun ball type), and my dog likes to use it to swing the ball around and hit herself with it like a monk doing penance. It's very funny but not always what I want. Then again if what I want is her to feel great about doing the weave poles, I let her.

[Erny]

Use a long-line. You're otherwise trying to train in the absence of control with a dog who is finding his behaviour self-rewarding.

Reverse the sequence - Erik brings you the ball so that you will then throw it for him to catch.

Couple of questions though, which could be confusing the situation.

From your OP, it sounds to me as though you play this exercise with the two dogs running free? Could be an element of keeping the ball of Kivi going on, especially as you indicate that Kivi used to take it.

Also, at any stage have you done anything that would further reward Erik's "keep the ball" behaviour? Like, chased after him; taken it from him and then thrown it again; ??

[Erny]

I think it would be more effective to use a ball you can reel in. Because that wouldn't stop the dog from making choices but would stop the ball being taken for a victory lap.

Trouble with that is that there is little to no learning by the dog in so far as understanding that it is about the retrieve.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi Erny

Yeah I wouldn't know what would work best without trying both.

I don't understand how my dog can play retrieve for fifteen minutes happily and perfectly bringing the toy right back on one night or for several nights, and the next night - it's like she's got no idea what she did before.

I usually retrieve toy (with waterpistol or food distraction) and do game over if she stops fetching.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Erny]

Hi Erny

Yeah I wouldn't know what would work best without trying both.

I don't understand how my dog can play retrieve for fifteen minutes happily and perfectly bringing the toy right back on one night or for several nights, and the next night - it's like she's got no idea what she did before.

I usually retrieve toy (with waterpistol or food distraction) and do game over if she stops fetching.

Stop the game BEFORE she stops fetching. I would not play retrieve for as long as 15 minutes. I keep tug and retrieve games really short. Just a few collective minutes (training/proofing in between).

Do too much and your dog learns to be the one to stop the game when s/he wants. "I'm tired of that now" ....

Do short sessions and stop whilst your dog is still eager is a bit like giving a kid the lick of an icecream - of course they're going to want more and will be very ready for it the next time. Keep 'em hungry for the 'game'.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Erny

[corvus]

I confess I have played the catch game with Kivi around. I taught Erik to catch with Kivi free to run around and get in the way. It's very sloppy as I normally would split them up for, like, a dozen different reasons. Nonetheless, I don't think he's keeping it away from Kivi in the slightest.

Haven't done anything to reward it.

Prepare for some potentially controversial (and posibly wrong) theorising. When he was learning to catch he was really insanely driven to nail it. Every time he missed it and it got away from him he'd do his little annoyed "Rrr!" noise and immediately get back into position and wait for the next throw. It's kinda weird and anthropomorphic to say it, but I think he just so badly wanted to catch that damn ball that when he finally did he couldn't quite bring himself to just turn around and give it up. He went to do it, then veered away. This is how Erik works. If something is a little bit challenging and then he nails it he can become a bit of a fiend about it. So if I pick up a ball his arousal immediately soars and he really switches on. That's all fine and dandy except that his anticipation is so high that when he gets the ball it's like an anti-climax. The reward doesn't quite match the level of arousal, so he naturally wants to hold onto it.

The way I see it, I have two choices if I want to teach him to retrieve the ball. I can lower his arousal, or I can condition a response to overcome it. Ideally, I'd like to do the latter, but we need to work up to the ball. That's fine, as we've got tug toys that he will bring back quite happily if I throw them to him to catch.

Or I could just leave the catch as is and use it as a jackpot. There's merit in that, I think, particularly if it gets him going like nothing else does.

Obviously, tethers are another option, but that's a management option that I prefer to avoid where it is safe to do so. That's just me and the way I do things with Erik.

[Vickie]

Thanks Vickie, that was very comprehensive!

You're welcome . It is so hard to describe a method of anything in so few words. It doesn't sound like it would will work for Erik, but anything that has previously worked is always food for thought. I've never had much luck with long lines either on the ball or the dog, I have used the 2 ball method, but like the above one better as it really encourages the dog to think & learn.