oakeydoak1 Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 After many years of breeding Border Collies, I think I have had my first phantom. My bitch came into season, she mated once with my boy but after that didnt seem interested. She grew normally, her belly swelled normally, her milk came in and she looked healthy and happy. Brought her into the whelping room in Friday, her appetite still fine. Her boobs were growing, today and lunch I thought she has lost her "plug", she was panting a little. At lunch her belly was still rounded. Been checking on her all afternoon and this evening, and it seems like her belly has disappeared, her boobs have shrunk and I checked her back end, it seems like there is a bit of old blood there but nothing much else. There is no way she could have passed them without me knowing, although I suppose she could have passed "something" when off going to the loo, however i have been keeping a close eye on her. Will have her to the vet in teh morning, but where do we go from here? I guess is there anything special we do next time? As I said, I have never experienced this before so I am not sure where to go from here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 When was she due? If she was due Saturday I would have had her to the vet well before this for an x-ray or ultrasound in case there is one puppy left dead or alive. Borders do not go over their due date of 63 days from ovulation without something being wrong so it is important to know before hand, by ultrasound or x-ray, the approx number of puppies due and if they don't arrive by the due date then get a caesar. For the future, the only way to be sure what is going on is to prog test first to make sure she ovulates and do repeated ultrasounds during the pregnancy to see if she is absorbing them. If she is, try a sire from a different line as the one you are using may not be genetically compatible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakeydoak1 Posted September 18, 2012 Author Share Posted September 18, 2012 When was she due? If she was due Saturday I would have had her to the vet well before this for an x-ray or ultrasound in case there is one puppy left dead or alive. Borders do not go over their due date of 63 days from ovulation without something being wrong so it is important to know before hand, by ultrasound or x-ray, the approx number of puppies due and if they don't arrive by the due date then get a caesar. For the future, the only way to be sure what is going on is to prog test first to make sure she ovulates and do repeated ultrasounds during the pregnancy to see if she is absorbing them. If she is, try a sire from a different line as the one you are using may not be genetically compatible. She was due on Monday, Dancinbcs. She is off to the vet this morning, see what they say. She seems fine in herself, eating, drinking and just wants to go to work with her dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakeydoak1 Posted September 19, 2012 Author Share Posted September 19, 2012 So now back from the vets with 5 puppies and a very sore and bewildered mum. They ultrasounded her and found a heartbeat so in for a c-section and am happy to report there were 5 babies in there. The placentas had started to seperate so we got to the just in time. Mum doesnt want to have anything to do with them at this stage, she is still drowsy too from the operation. I am hoping that will change once she feels a little better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Hope mum will accept that now she has responsibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakeydoak1 Posted September 19, 2012 Author Share Posted September 19, 2012 I hope so too Persephone. She just let them feed off her for about 10 minutes with me stroking her and telling her what a good girl she is. Still not licking them or toileting them so I will do that job for now, will hope she improves as she starts to feel a bit better. The babies obviously got SOME milk, as they are all now napping quietly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 So now back from the vets with 5 puppies and a very sore and bewildered mum. They ultrasounded her and found a heartbeat so in for a c-section and am happy to report there were 5 babies in there. The placentas had started to seperate so we got to the just in time. Mum doesnt want to have anything to do with them at this stage, she is still drowsy too from the operation. I am hoping that will change once she feels a little better. If this girl is not a maiden she should wake up and mother as normal. If she is a maiden it will take longer for her to work out what these weird little creatures are and were they came from so you are going to need to act as mum. Try to get them to feed while she is still drowsy to get the colostrum but you may have to supplement for a few days if her milk doesn't come in properly soon. If she isn't feeding them properly within about 48 hours and seems to have no milk, you might have to find a foster mum. You were very lucky that it wasn't a caesar for a dead litter and that you didn't lose the mum as well. For future reference for anyone reading this - if there is no sign of labour by the due date then get an ultrasound to find out what is going on. Do not wait it out for a day or two or it can end in disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakeydoak1 Posted September 19, 2012 Author Share Posted September 19, 2012 Thanks dancinbcs, yes, she is a maiden so realise it may take a bit longer, luckily she seems to be starting to get some milk, puppies have had 3 feeds (although I have had to put them on her) and are sleeping soundly, she is not toileting them as yet so I will do that for now. It is a big wakeup call. I started breeding 15 years ago and although dont have alot of litters, have never had any problems, I have only ever lost one puppy, so I guess sometimes you can get a bit complacent. Wont be happening again. Many thanks for your advice Dancinbcs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Thanks dancinbcs, yes, she is a maiden so realise it may take a bit longer, luckily she seems to be starting to get some milk, puppies have had 3 feeds (although I have had to put them on her) and are sleeping soundly, she is not toileting them as yet so I will do that for now. It is a big wakeup call. I started breeding 15 years ago and although dont have alot of litters, have never had any problems, I have only ever lost one puppy, so I guess sometimes you can get a bit complacent. Wont be happening again. Many thanks for your advice Dancinbcs. Borders tend to not have problems often so you can get lulled into a false sense of security. My vet did her PHD on puppy mortality and I am one of the few people to have read the entire thesis. One of the most important conclusions she came to was to always be prepared to go in on the due date with a caesar if there is any suspicion of trouble, rather than leaving it too late, to give the highest survival rate for puppies and dams. She ultrasounds on the due date if nothing has happened and will either get the puppies out then or book the bitch in for the next morning depending on heartbeats, etc. The practice does a lot of caesars but they are nearly always for live puppies rather than risk them dying before they get in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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