Gundogs/training In Drive

[Luke GSP]

When I think of TID I think of methodologies like Steve's or Michael Ellis or other people coming from a Schutzhund/obedience perspective.

SG, while she does talk about drive, she mostly talks about arousal levels, and relationship building. In the same session/exercise she will switch between food and toys (eg start the session with tugging for relationship building/drive building (getting arousal levels up), then go to food for shaping, then back to tugging for a balance break or relationship building to end the session), from what I understand of TID they don't tend to do that.

The method that I have seen being used was by Steve, have to say that with a suitable dog the results were pretty evident straight away, however when trying to research the use of "drive"training in gundogs, I came across this,

Gundogs and drive

which again throws the balls in the air Maybe the problem is that we try and put way to much theory in to the why it is having an effect (desirable or not) and just either use the effect to our advantage or if the method seems to not suit a dog, just leave well alone?

In regard to Drive training, has there actually been any studies to document what is going on within the dog, or is it all theory? Please do not get me wrong, I am not trying to put Steve or anyone else's methods or methodology down, I have seen his results first hand and think he is a fantastic trainer, just asking the question as I would like to know the background if it's available. :)

[corvus]

The method that I have seen being used was by Steve, have to say that with a suitable dog the results were pretty evident straight away, however when trying to research the use of "drive"training in gundogs, I came across this,

Gundogs and drive

Ha! Love it. :laugh: Painfully accurate? In ethology I don't think people really use the term 'drive' much in this sense. I guess we would usually say motivation instead.

In regard to Drive training, has there actually been any studies to document what is going on within the dog, or is it all theory? Please do not get me wrong, I am not trying to put Steve or anyone else's methods or methodology down, I have seen his results first hand and think he is a fantastic trainer, just asking the question as I would like to know the background if it's available. :)

The short answer is no. Even the theory hasn't really been discussed much in academic circles. The closest we really have since Hull is Panksepp. His work is based mostly on laboratory rodents, but he makes the point that it's all the same structures and chemicals so it should extrapolate to any mammalian brain. Lots of people are talking about Panksepp at the moment. The affective neuroscience 7 emotions system is nicely applicable, but at this point we're not entirely sure how it translates to behaviour. The nature of the brain and emotions is that there is overlap, which makes it challenging for people to get their minds around.

Incidentally, Panksepp doesn't really talk about where predatory behaviour comes into things. It would seem it's probably SEEKING, like any foraging, exploratory, or dopamine-related reward seeking behaviour, but there's probably a bit of this and that from other systems as well.

[Santo66]

Ellis and Balabanov are similar, SG uses toys quite differently IMO. Things like how toys are handled/manipulated/placed, and also how they are talked about and thought about. Also Ellis uses luring, SG uses shaping.

Balabanov tends to shape more than Ellis I think .......perhaps I am thinking luring is beneficial in bite sports as the reward is always on display when maximum drive is desired as in strong focus on the decoy, sleeve etc.

[Vickie]

I think Ellis prefers luring because he feels its often quicker, allows more precision and leaves little room for confusion.

[Vickie]

Back to the original question...

I don't have gun dogs. Obviously drive training has no place in working stock, but I have made some observations with my sheepdogs lately.

I have 2 two year old bitches from the same litter.

One I started on both agility (where I use a form of drive training) and on sheep at a young age.

I held back agility/drive training with the other as I was concerned it would affect her sheep work. In the last couple of months, I have spent some time training her in agility. Lately she seems a lot more pushy in her sheep work and doesn't seem as calm & clear headed in her work. She is moving a bit faster on her sheep and anticipating commands.

It could all just be a coincidence, a consequence of something else or even a figment of my imagination, lol, but I can't help wondering if my initial concerns are now becoming reality.

Both are still great sheepdogs & looking awesome in agility, but I suspect the 2 activities are affecting each other.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Vickie

[Kavik]

That is really interesting Vickie, about the drive work for agility affecting sheep work. Does it go the other way too, does the sheep work impact on the agility? I haven't done enough sheep work with mine to know.

[Vickie]

Yes, I think it can go both ways, but depends on how you train.

Sheep work requires a level of compliance that is impossible to achieve without some aversives.You cannot reward your dog with food or toys for calling off stock, you cannot shape or lure distance off stock and you cannot flank your dog the opposite way to what it's instinct tells it without some form of pressure.

I think dogs are smart enough to respond to the 2 different types of training, but I'm pretty sure there would have to be some overlaps each way.

[Santo66]

Sheep work requires a level of compliance that is impossible to achieve without some aversives.

I have noticed more on a global front that especially gun dog training is very strong on Ecollar work more than any other discipline it seems?

[Weasels]

You cannot reward your dog with food or toys for calling off stock

I did with Weez :) Worked great for him specifically. Didn't do it with Chess but she seems to have the obedience gene

[Wobbly]

I found an interview with Panksepp that is probably worth a read for those with more enquiring minds: http://ec.libsyn.com/p/2/1/c/21c401f2f9b95978/65-brainscience-Panksepp.pdf?d13a76d516d9dec20c3d276ce028ed5089ab1ce3dae902ea1d01cf8531d9cf5fde03&c_id=1521543

I don't actually see any conflict between Steve's methods, or Garrett's and even Panksepp's research into the neurological underpinnings of motivation and reward. To me they all seem quite complementary, although terminologies do seem to obfuscate that.

There was a conversation recently in which reinforcement rate came up - Fenzi and Nekhbet's preference for a reduced reward rate vs McDevitt's preference for rapid fire reinforcement. On the surface these approaches seem to be polar opposites, but to my mind they are complementary, which approach you choose depends on what you are trying to achieve in a given situation.

The more angles you approach it from, the greater the likelihood you will develop the more comprehensive understanding you seek.

[Wobbly]

We need to recognise that all these explanations are only models, a convenient representation of reality, not reality itself. All models are limited, and all come with their own strengths and flaws.

Which model is most appropriate depends upon the situation.

[Luke GSP]

Sheep work requires a level of compliance that is impossible to achieve without some aversives.

I have noticed more on a global front that especially gun dog training is very strong on Ecollar work more than any other discipline it seems?

I think that is because in a lot of situations, they are working with dogs with huge amounts of Drive and enthusiasm but that need to conduct their business in a more controlled manner, hence they are trying to rein in some of the enthusiasm a bit. It seems especially prevalent in the US pointing and retriever fraternity.

[BlackJaq]

Sheep work requires a level of compliance that is impossible to achieve without some aversives.

I have noticed more on a global front that especially gun dog training is very strong on Ecollar work more than any other discipline it seems?

I think it is because it is faster. A lot faster usually. And some trainers just cannot or will not achieve the same level of performance without it. That does not mean it cannot be done but some bad habits are nearly impossible to correct without it once they are allowed to develop (for example refusing to recall after starting to chase an animal once the dog has been on serious hunts and knows how much satisfaction catching and retrieving can bring). Note I said nearly. Obviously it depends on the dog and the human and the training but a quick zap can be the easiest and most efficient way.

Either way, I cannot use one even if I wanted to because they are illegal in NSW. Gun dog people are not the only ones who use them either, in the US there seem to be some obedience clubs very big on them, same with bite sports, too, I believe (I am not judging either way because like any tool, they can be very helpful or very harmful depending on the handler)

Edited July 2, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Luke GSP]

(I am not judging either way because like any tool, they can be very helpful or very harmful depending on the handler)

Ain't that the truth :-) train the dog in front of you by applying the correct tool in the correct manner :-)

[rubyroo]

Either way, I cannot use one even if I wanted to because they are illegal in NSW. Gun dog people are not the only ones who use them either, in the US there seem to be some obedience clubs very big on them, same with bite sports, too, I believe (I am not judging either way because like any tool, they can be very helpful or very harmful depending on the handler)

They only illegal to use, not own. Great tool for saving your dog or wildlife's life. Like you said Anything in the wrong hands without correct training can be dangerous. it helps reinforce the command you have given. Why tell a dog 'here' 5 times, before he does it, why not tell him once? Non compliance is just not acceptable in certain circumstances re, chasing. Either the dog or the one being chased could have a very bad outcome.

Controlling a dog definately does not rein enthusiasm. It teaches it boundaries, but it also learns there is still a reward if compliant. He needs to learn you are the hunter not Him. You will let him help you 'retrieve' if well behaved, this is a huge reward.

[corvus]

I think it's a broad generalisation that controlling a dog "definitely" does not rein enthusiasm. How do you know? Have you tested it on every dog in every circumstance? Isn't half the point of 'control' to curb enthusiasm? That's why I use leashes, anyway. I often wonder how dogs might be changing as our training and management options and trends change. It's easy enough to say use the tool or method that suits the dog and use it correctly, but I would bet money on the percentage of time that is actually done being very low. Because it's got to be highly dependent on the skill of the trainer not only in applying various methods, but in assessing the dog in the first place. It's very easy to interpret a dog's behaviour incorrectly. What is a 'good' dog to one person may well be a dog that is resilient to their preferred training method rather than having good traits for the purpose they have been bred for. You could look at it the same way with anxious and reactive dogs. We have a lot more tolerance and ability to manage these dogs, now. Maybe some selection pressure has been removed.

[Luke GSP]

I think sometimes you want to "direct" that enthusiasm, sometimes you want to wind it back a little (rein it in), and sometimes people want to suppress it all together (which usually means they brought the wrong dog in the first place )

Sadly most people want to apply one method to train a "Dog", Clicker, Drive training, shaping, luring etc etc, the list goes on, however a good trainer (not saying I am one by the way :laugh: )looks at the animal in front of it then works out the best method/style of training for that animal to get the desired outcome.

Ask two trainers to talk about training and pretty much the only thing they will agree on is that the third trainer is doing it wrong :laugh:

[Vickie]

You cannot reward your dog with food or toys for calling off stock

I did with Weez :) Worked great for him specifically.

Ok, there are always exceptions. maybe "cannot" was too generalised. I will change to " it would be very unusual if you could"

I did try it once as a joke...I was working Fly, (who is about as ball obsessed as a dog can get) and I said "where's your ball?".I wish I'd videoed it. She flipped, gave me the wild eyes, looked at the ball, then looked at me in disgust & went back to her sheep.

[corvus]

I find it a bit of a copout. Not that I don't agree on some level, I am just cynical. It's very easy to have some kind of success with dogs one way or another. It's very difficult if not impossible to know when you're having the 'most' success you can with a dog. Kivi is a training machine at the moment and I have no idea why. About a month ago he just started getting really enthusiastic about it out of the blue. It was remarkable. I'm still waiting for it to plateau. Did I think he was doing just peachy a year ago? Hell yes.Evidently he had more to give and I just didn't know it.

[The Spotted Devil]

You cannot reward your dog with food or toys for calling off stock

I did with Weez :) Worked great for him specifically.

Ok, there are always exceptions. maybe "cannot" was too generalised. I will change to " it would be very unusual if you could"

I did try it once as a joke...I was working Fly, (who is about as ball obsessed as a dog can get) and I said "where's your ball?".I wish I'd videoed it. She flipped, gave me the wild eyes, looked at the ball, then looked at me in disgust & went back to her sheep.

That's funny! The first time I had game and food side by side Em spat the food out :laugh: I did teach her to accept whichever I chose but I'm not sure it would work on live game. In terms of other behaviours around retrieving I work on conditioned responses away from the activity using dummies and food - deliveries, sit stays, recalls, whistle sits, distance handling etc. Then I add game (which sends her over the top and works as both a fabulous temptation and a brilliant reward), followed by the excitement of a trial.