Loose Lead Walking

[dididog]

Didi was as all puppies generally are a terrible walker and because she's so big and strong it's currently my #1 priority. We've made a lot of progress using a limited slip/martingale type collar and she understands the concept of the collar tightening = stop pulling as she will slow down/come back to my side when I correct or if she hits the end of the lead. Her walking varies, sometimes she's a bit frisky and I'll have to correct her a bit or other days like today I won't even know there's a dog on the end of my lead and any pulling she does do is generally to sniff or lunge at birds ( ) but she doesn't do the freight train pulling type of thing.

So I'm pretty happy with the progress we've made there and walking her is not a problem around our neighbourhood/shopping strip and parks BUT at obedience or a new location she just seems to lose her mind. At obedience she is getting a bit better and generally is only terrible at the start but if we take her somewhere new it's a huge struggle to hold onto her and my corrections sink in for a few seconds and she's off pulling again, like full on freight train pulling which she never does otherwise. I try my best not to let her self reward pulling by correcting and rewarding good walkies or come to a complete stop and ask her to sit if she really isn't listening but it's still a bumpy ride.

After she's been out for a while or we've done some sort of exercise she is much more responsive (eg the walk to the beach is terrible but after a run around on the beach walking in a new environment is fine) so I think it's more her getting overwhelmed than there being a flaw in her understanding of loose leash walking.

I'm so terrible at asking questions I tend to ramble on but ANYWAY what I'm getting at here is what should be my approach to this? Going to new places for loose lead walking practices a few times a week? Or is it more a matter of her needing to take the edge off before we go somewhere new/her just calming a bit with age?

I would ask my obedience trainer but I'm fairly sure she doesn't like me and her only advice regarding walking has been to get a front-attach harness as if that would solve all my problems. I'm pretty anti that idea for a number of reasons and would only resort to it if I really could not get through to Didi on this one purely because in a few months time I just really won't be able to control Didi when she's pulling that intensely.

[Simply Grand]

Reward the good walking more!! Make paying attention to you more exciting than what's going on around her. So keep going with tight lead/collar equals no progress but every time she is in a nice position with a loose lead, mark and reward with a treat. A clicker is great for this.

You'll get much quicker progress with a two pronged approach rather than just punishing the pulling. By rewarding her for a loose lead you're showing her exactly what it is you want her to do AND that keeping an eye on you even when there are other things going on is worth her while because she can earn rewards.

Start in a lower distraction environment she's already ok in, build up the reward history and use great, high value treats in the more distracting environments.

ETA - I reread and you say you are rewarding good walking but I suspect you need to up the reward level way more. With adolescent shelter dogs that are clueless on lead we are often clicking and treating literally every second step at first :)

One more thing, if she really isn't listening rather than stopping and trying to get a sit I'd look at surprising her by changing direction, taking jogging steps and talking excitedly (again so YOU are more exciting than whatever else she's focussing on) then praise as she goes to catch up with you and the lead is automatically loose, then jackpot treats when she gets to you :)

Edited July 16, 2014 by Simply Grand

[hankdog]

Jake was a five year old with no training....freight train with a capital F. A front attach harness turned around and came straight back to me minus dog. We did a lot of stuff, just turning in the opposite direction gave him the opportunity to speed up in the turn, if you use it turn in front of them, I do that now if he's drifting.

What really helped was walking snails pace, really snails go sailing past you. Also the walk and stop, as soon as there's leash pressure or if your martingale chain clicks use that noise. I literally spent 5 weeks taking no more than 5 steps then stop, wait ten seconds and go again. You get to know your neighbours very well.

[dididog]

I generally keep the balance of correct and reward, even on walks where I know she'll walk nicely I bring treats and will after a correction (when she has gone from doing what I don't want to what I do want) mark it and treat and do a lot of fussing 'You're such a good walker!!!'. Even if we've been walking for 10 minutes on a completely loose lead I will keep telling her how nice her walkies are, I must look a bit weird :laugh: But you're right I do think in the situations where she's over excited that I get really frustrated and tend to correct more than I reward and am probably a bit more restrained in my rewarding when I do

I think I might give her a quick run around and then take her somewhere new tomorrow so that she's a little calmer and not being set up to fail and be way more liberal about rewarding the good walkies!

It's so weird that we can walk down a super busy street in my suburb full of people and screaming kids, trams and buses going past and all sorts of dogs (normally reacting to Didi aggressively) and she'll stick to my side like glue but put us in the exact same situation somewhere different and she loses it.

[Simply Grand]

snails go sailing past!

[dididog]

Jake was a five year old with no training....freight train with a capital F. A front attach harness turned around and came straight back to me minus dog. We did a lot of stuff, just turning in the opposite direction gave him the opportunity to speed up in the turn, if you use it turn in front of them, I do that now if he's drifting.

What really helped was walking snails pace, really snails go sailing past you. Also the walk and stop, as soon as there's leash pressure or if your martingale chain clicks use that noise. I literally spent 5 weeks taking no more than 5 steps then stop, wait ten seconds and go again. You get to know your neighbours very well.

It sounds like I did a very similar thing when training Didi initially, it's much easier to do the snail's pace and stop start around your neighbourhood... a bit harder in the CBD or outside a shopping centre or a busy promenade along the beach. I suppose I'll just have to suck it up and be that weird girl with the crazy dog blocking everyone's way :laugh:

[Simply Grand]

You're adding whole new criteria of unfamiliar stimuli (smells etc) and unpredictability when you go somewhere new so it becomes much much harder for her. The more new places she visits where you make it clear that you expect the same behaviours the more she'll generalise her behaviour, so lots of new places!

It being much harder for her means you need to way increase your reward rate though, otherwise how is it worth her while to pay attention to what you're asking her to do?

Reward history is really important too, so keep going with your rewards when she is in the more familiar environments. If she's going 10 mins on a loose lead she's doing a fantastic job so why wouldn't you pay her for that with treats, not just praise? The more often she checks in with you going "so, can I have a treat now?" when she's less aroused the better chance you have of her remembering to do that when she's more aroused.

Remember as well the high reward rate is only while she's learning, the more socialisation and practice she has the easier it will become for her so you reduce the reward rate right down.

[hankdog]

Embrace the weird lady/ crazy dog thing.

[Simply Grand]

Jake was a five year old with no training....freight train with a capital F. A front attach harness turned around and came straight back to me minus dog. We did a lot of stuff, just turning in the opposite direction gave him the opportunity to speed up in the turn, if you use it turn in front of them, I do that now if he's drifting.

What really helped was walking snails pace, really snails go sailing past you. Also the walk and stop, as soon as there's leash pressure or if your martingale chain clicks use that noise. I literally spent 5 weeks taking no more than 5 steps then stop, wait ten seconds and go again. You get to know your neighbours very well.

It sounds like I did a very similar thing when training Didi initially, it's much easier to do the snail's pace and stop start around your neighbourhood... a bit harder in the CBD or outside a shopping centre or a busy promenade along the beach. I suppose I'll just have to suck it up and be that weird girl with the crazy dog blocking everyone's way :laugh:

See that's where being exciting, silly noises, changing direction and rewarding her for following you to show her what you do want can really help, rather than only preventing the behaviour you don't want. With lots of distractions around she may not even care that you've stopped, she's not even thinking about walking on lead so she isn't necessarily learning what you are actually wanting to teach her. But by actively getting her focus back on you you can start to teach her again.

You'll still be the weirdo carrying on like an idiot with your dog though :laugh:

Edited July 16, 2014 by Simply Grand

[dididog]

Yeah I think I need to really embrace my inner crazy dog lady, I'm a bit too hung up on what other people think and get embarrassed when Didi does something wrong

Don't worry I still treat her when she does those long stretches of good walkies, but I feel in our neighbourhood at least she knows what she's supposed to do and does it the 95% of the time so I don't treat her as much as I did when she was learning, still plenty of praise though.

It's hard to get out to new places enough for them to not be a novelty since I don't have a car during the week so I might have to crack out the muzzle and take the train somewhere(at least she's rock solid on the train).

Anyway thanks for telling me what I probably already knew re: her struggling and me not accommodating that, I think I really need to readjust my expectation for the poor dog, I keep forgetting she's still a baby.

[Simply Grand]

Well, she's probably bigger than you so easy to forget she's still a pup! Most people have trouble really letting go when training their dogs but two things to remember:

1. Other people don't think about us anywhere near as much as we think they do

And 2. People who don't put effort into training and have dogs that won't recall, won't listen to their owners and have no manners spend a lot more time looking silly than those of us who put in the effort early for the long term benefit!

You always impress me with your knowledge and maturity Terri, don't be disheartened!

[dididog]

Well, she's probably bigger than you so easy to forget she's still a pup! Most people have trouble really letting go when training their dogs but two things to remember:

1. Other people don't think about us anywhere near as much as we think they do

And 2. People who don't put effort into training and have dogs that won't recall, won't listen to their owners and have no manners spend a lot more time looking silly than those of us who put in the effort early for the long term benefit!

You always impress me with your knowledge and maturity Terri, don't be disheartened!

Thanks for the reassurance SG :) your points are definitely true, I'll have to remember to remind myself of that more often.

This whole 'raise your first puppy and don't stuff it up' thing has been so nerve wracking but I am really starting to see everything pay off and I'm so glad I found DOL, so many nice people like you with way more experience and better perspective have helped me a lot.

[hankdog]

Yea I've never raised a pup, I think it would be nerve wracking. Much easier to get a renovators delight and blame it on the previous owners! How big is Didi?

[dididog]

Yea I've never raised a pup, I think it would be nerve wracking. Much easier to get a renovators delight and blame it on the previous owners! How big is Didi?

:laugh: Hopefully the next puppy I can enjoy more instead of being in a state of constant panic I am ruining them!

And Didi is about 38kg now at 9 mths, her head comes up to my hip and she can almost give me a hug (I'm slightly on the taller side of average). But honestly I am so desensitised to her size that she's normal in my eyes. Anything smaller then say a beagle freaks me out!

[Simply Grand]

You are not ruining her! :p

[dididog]

You are not ruining her! :p

Don't worry I know she's reminds every day that I've done a good job, I'm just a bit prone to unnecessary worrying and dramatics. Lucky Didi is super chill or she'd probably be a bit of a mess :laugh:

[Amax-1]

I generally keep the balance of correct and reward, even on walks where I know she'll walk nicely I bring treats and will after a correction (when she has gone from doing what I don't want to what I do want) mark it and treat and do a lot of fussing 'You're such a good walker!!!'. Even if we've been walking for 10 minutes on a completely loose lead I will keep telling her how nice her walkies are, I must look a bit weird :laugh: But you're right I do think in the situations where she's over excited that I get really frustrated and tend to correct more than I reward and am probably a bit more restrained in my rewarding when I do

I think I might give her a quick run around and then take her somewhere new tomorrow so that she's a little calmer and not being set up to fail and be way more liberal about rewarding the good walkies!

It's so weird that we can walk down a super busy street in my suburb full of people and screaming kids, trams and buses going past and all sorts of dogs (normally reacting to Didi aggressively) and she'll stick to my side like glue but put us in the exact same situation somewhere different and she loses it.

You on the right track.....what I do is build more handler focus by changing direction, when she surges ahead, before she hits the end of the leash, turn around and walk briskly in the opposite direction and let her self correct, when she catches up make it fun and praise her for catching up and give her a treat......don't let her pull against the leash, turn around before she hits the end of it and what happens is the dog thinks it's a game. The correction is NOT a punisher, it's a "hey, we are going this way" but along with praise and treats for the right behaviour, you have a double reinforcer. If the dog values toys more than food, use a toy or ball as a reward for maintaining composure :)

I would ask my obedience trainer but I'm fairly sure she doesn't like me and her only advice regarding walking has been to get a front-attach harness as if that would solve all my problems

Tell her you just bought a prong collar and she will hate you with a passion :laugh:

Edited July 16, 2014 by Amax-1

[Simply Grand]

I generally keep the balance of correct and reward, even on walks where I know she'll walk nicely I bring treats and will after a correction (when she has gone from doing what I don't want to what I do want) mark it and treat and do a lot of fussing 'You're such a good walker!!!'. Even if we've been walking for 10 minutes on a completely loose lead I will keep telling her how nice her walkies are, I must look a bit weird :laugh: But you're right I do think in the situations where she's over excited that I get really frustrated and tend to correct more than I reward and am probably a bit more restrained in my rewarding when I do

I think I might give her a quick run around and then take her somewhere new tomorrow so that she's a little calmer and not being set up to fail and be way more liberal about rewarding the good walkies!

It's so weird that we can walk down a super busy street in my suburb full of people and screaming kids, trams and buses going past and all sorts of dogs (normally reacting to Didi aggressively) and she'll stick to my side like glue but put us in the exact same situation somewhere different and she loses it.

You on the right track.....what I do is build more handler focus by changing direction, when she surges ahead, before she hits the end of the leash, turn around and walk briskly in the opposite direction and let her self correct, when she catches up make it fun and praise her for catching up and give her a treat......don't let her pull against the leash, turn around before she hits the end of it and what happens is the dog thinks it's a game. The correction is NOT a punisher, it's a "hey, we are going this way" but along with praise and treats for the right behaviour, you have a double reinforcer. If the dog values toys more than food, use a toy or ball as a reward for maintaining composure :)

I would ask my obedience trainer but I'm fairly sure she doesn't like me and her only advice regarding walking has been to get a front-attach harness as if that would solve all my problems

Tell her you just bought a prong collar and she will hate you with a passion :laugh:

Correction = consequence that reduces likelihood of behaviour recurringr. Punishment = consequence that reduces likelihood of behaviour recurring. Therefore correction is punishment.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Simply Grand

[Amax-1]

Correction = consequence that reduces likelihood of behaviour recurringr. Punishment = consequence that reduces likelihood of behaviour recurring. Therefore correction is punishment.

It depends how the correction is used whether it be a punisher applied by the handler for non compliance with a command or used as a behaviour interrupter as to how the dog associates with the correction. Punisher as in "cop this correction for disobedience or being naughty" or correction used as an interrupter from the dog making the wrong choice are two different things in the dog's mindset.

[raineth]

I can see you've got some great advice here already Terri :)

What does she do if you walk her on leash around your backyard and house? Give it a go, as it will highlight to you whether you primarily have an understanding problem or a distraction problem, or maybe a bit of both, as your house and yard should be a very low-distraction environment that enables her to perform at her best.

What is your aim? Just loose leash, or loose leash and by your side?

I would tackle the problem in the following ways:

Firstly I would determine what function her pulling is achieving. It is likely that pulling is rewarding for her as it involves moving more quickly and possibly accessing reinforcement such as interesting smells.

So then your job is to ensure that pulling never, ever results in these things. Make sure she never gets to move forward when she is pulling, or reach interesting smells (or whatever it is that she finds reinforcing).

So I would focus on that, and not give corrections at all.

Then you want to teach her that she can get these things that she wants by walking loose leash. So the moment she starts to pull you stop dead in your tracks. Wait for something polite from her, like looking at you, or a sit, then turn her around (walk in the direction you came from for a few metres) and attempt it again. Often dogs will pull at a certain point because they are interested in something, and they want to check it out. So you would keep stopping, then turning her around, until she can walk past whatever is distracting her on a loose leash. Then you tell her how amazing she is and let her check out what she was so interested in (or if that's not appropriate, give her some treats and lots of praise).

When she is walking nicely, you can reward her by going faster, maybe even running. If she makes a mistake get her to practice until she gets it right.

In regards to new environments, if you can manage it, try to take her to new places as much as possible. But instead of going to a new environment with the idea to walk in that new environment, go there to just hang out. So take a matt for her, and a kong, and just get her to chill out.

Then when she is more confident in new places and has more ability to focus on you, then try going for walks.