What Exactly Is "training In Drive"

[Steve K9Pro]

M:

I have stoped correcting people on spelling my nickname loooong ago Denis

K9: ;) nice return

[MonElite]

I dont have it here, but I promise a photograph of my dog in prAy LOL drive, just have to scan it.

[Denis Carthy]

Mind you I think Steves Mal has someone 'praying' out of camera range..yes I did write these below some time ago:

What is Instinct, what is drive.

In order to analyze and understand voluntary human behaviour psychologists worked out that some differentiation had to be made between involuntary and voluntary behaviour to attempt to understand and interpret the underlying motive behind given behaviour(s) and to understand the difference between learned behaviour, intelligence, habit etc.

I am not sure who the first behaviorist psychologist was who defined and explained the difference between instinct and drive but I think I read Skinners or Mcdougals definitions. He first defined instinct and then separated them from ‘drives’ the later being the term used to describe to the underlying motive of ‘learned’ behaviour.

The probable reason for this need to differentiate between instinct and create the concept of drives was a reaction by human behaviorist psychologists to the traditional Freudian psychoanalysts and others who ascribed all behaviour as instinct.

An illustrative example would be a sexual fetish whereby someone experiences erotic pleasure by smelling a piece of rubber. Such tendencies are far removed from the ‘instinct’ of reproducing oneself in order to ensure the survival of the species, the sole purpose for sexual activity in a species, therefor a sexual fetish for rubber could not be the instinct to reproduce the species.

The fetish for rubber is learned and not universal throughout the species, but, the underlying force is the survival of the species by means of copulation (in mammals ) and is universal throughout the species. Therefore the fetish is said to be ‘instinctive’ but not instinct, it is ‘learned' and 'acquired’ whereas instinct is innate, unlearned and cannot be modified by learning.

The fetish was described as ‘drive’ having its base in instinct but altered by intelligence and learning, the 'degree' of 'learning abilty' is dependant of the species and the total of its environment. Dogs are unique because (a) they are a synthetic species (b) they are the only known animal, excluding the apes, which can form an emotional relationship with man and which is universal throughout the species.

The above simple example illustrates what is probably the most important difference between instinct and drive i.e. instinct is innate, independent of any experience and cannot be modified by learning. Below is the generally accepted differentiation of instinct and drive.

Instinct.

1. An innate behaviour universal throughout a species.( dogs do not all have a genetic predisposition to herd sheep, do not all have a genetic predisposition to go underground for prey, do not all bark etc, etc.)

2. The behaviour is independent of any learning experience.

3. It is unchangeable by experience and is not susceptible to a learning process of any significant degree. ( e.g. a dog does not have an ‘instinct’ to chase a stick thrown by a person, not all dogs will but some will learn )

Drive.

Drive is a behaviour having an unlearned innate base, i.e. instinct, but drive is defined as being modified by the environment and learning, it is a ‘predisposition‘ which can manifest in many diverse behaviours and it is the underlying motive for behaviour, understand the drive in dogs and you will understand what we call might call its ‘mind’, in anthropomorphic terms.

A more detailed paper on instinct and drives try the following web link:

http://www.dogstuff.info/understanding_drives_denis.html

Edited June 2, 2005 by Denis Carthy

[Denis Carthy]

I just modified the above, it makes sense NOW!

[Vickie]

For those not interested, sorry, but I think there are a few who are interested. I found this on a BC discussion where they were discussing prey drive in working dogs:

"I wanted to make my views on prey drive as it relates to stock work more clear. I confess what follows is something, in its entirety, that I have written on this subject previously so please excuse any repetition on my part from earlier posts:

Although portions of herding instinct originated from hunting

instinct, researchers such as Michael Fox have demonstrated that

domesticated breeds such as herding dogs have been selected for

truncated prey drive that stops before the kill bite (Fox M.W.,

1978. The Dog. Its domestication and behavior. New York and

London: Garland STPM Press). However, all dogs are predators under

the right circumstances, so they can still learn to hunt and kill

stock. Border collies may do so easier than other breeds because

they are naturally attracted to stock. This does not mean herding

ability is merely handler controlled hunting instinct. It has

components of prey drive, but it by no means only prey drive, and it

is by no means a simple collection of traits. Increased intensity

of parts of the truncated sequence of predation have been selected

for. For example, the desire to stop and control stock known

as "heading behavior" is modified and expanded from what would be a

weak, situational skill in most predators. The same is true of

driving skills. As well, it has been said that sheepdogs have an

extreme interest in stock when compared predators such as wolves. If

the prey are too difficult to catch, wolves will usually give up

easily and wait for easier prey whereas border collies will work

long and tirelessly, no matter how difficult the job. In nature,

keenness to pursue prey that is too difficult when easier prey could

be had would be selected against.

There are other differences in herding behavior and predatory

behavior that are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Border collies

must work to control and move stock. This involves identifying and

influencing the strong leaders, not the weak stragglers. In

contrast, predators try to find the weakest and most vulnerable of

the prey to pursue and capture. This behavior of only being

interested in controlling the strong leaders is so pronounced in

some border collies that they will ignore lambs and sick sheep

completely, as if they weren't even there. Even wild or unbroke

stock can identify and respond calmly but obediently to a determined

dog with the right work ethic. This response is nothing like the one

of terror the stock would have toward a predator. Dogs that upset

stock too much are not desirable, since this type of stress causes

weight loss and compromises the health of the stock, thus lowering

their value.

Working stock properly involves a highly refined relationship and

communication between the stock and the dog. What we see is only

the tip of the iceberg. Although eons of prey/predator interactions

have honed the senses involved in this relationship, the

relationship between the good sheepdog and its sheep is quite

different from one of a predator/prey relationship.

This type of highly evolved working ability cannot be trained in

those who do not have it. As I have said, many a well bred working

border collie pup can go out and gather unbroke stock even in large

areas and bring them to the owner quite naturally at a young age.

Training should merely be a refinement of what is already there from

good breeding."

[Purple Julie]

Interesting discussion on drive.

I have some comments to make and questions to ask.

Regarding the herding sheep thing. I would say that is prey drive. Jyra has high prey drive and has not been taught to herd, but one time we were at a friend's property with Jyra and her mother, Jessie. These friends own goats. Anyway, the girls were having a good time swimming when a pelican appeared, and they both had to chase it! They went out of sight and Jessie came back, but Jyra vanished! We could hear some high pitched yaps in the distance, so I went running and there was Jyra 'herding' (rather chasing probably) the goats. Now if you ask me, she was herding them quite well! She had them in two neat groups, both groups running the same direction. I suppose if Jyra wanted them in one group, then she had failed, because she had two. Anyway, I suppose Jyra's intentions were to satisfy prey drive and chase rather than herd. The amazing thing is, that even when she was in such high prey drive, she responded to my yelling at her and stopped chasing them and came to me!

Now, Steve, when you're training with prey drive, do you have to have the 'prey' on a string in order to get it back off the dog when you have thrown it? Jyra has her blue, spikey, squeaky ball, and I've put a string on it and torment her with it to get her into high drive, like you said. The ball is easy to take out of Jyra's mouth because she doesn't hold onto it tightly (she doesn't like to squeak it!). So if it's on a string, a little tug and we can get it out of her mouth. If it's not on a string, we can just take it out of her mouth.

But say we're using the bunny (toy!!), if I throw that for her, she'll catch it and either play chasey or bring it up to us if we don't chase, but she won't let go. If we take hold of the bunny, she will want to play tug-of-war with it. We can play tug of war with the rope toy because it's strong, but we don't with the bunny because we'll tear it to bits. To get her to let go of the bunny, I can tickle her tongue near the back of her mouth (good thing she's patient!).

So, what is happening here? Is Jyra switching from prey drive to play drive and rank drive? How can you get her to return and drop the bunny? I've tried using a food reward, but that doesn't work so well, either she won't chase, because she wants the food, or she'll chase and drop the bunny halfway back to me because she wants the food.

Do you think Jyra is high in all the drives? Especially food, play, prey and rank.

Any idea why Jyra will not intentionally squeak her ball? She knows about squeaking it, she has seen her mother, Jessie do it. My theory is that she doesn't want to 'hurt' it as if it were a real living thing.

I thought I'd add some more colour to this post and put up some pictures!

For Myzska, Jyra and her old bunny. Jessie (Jyra's mum) killed this bunny in seconds and Jyra had had it for months!

Jyra mid-flight in prey drive. Gosh, she looks so vicious in this picture!!

Wow! That was a long post!

Edited June 2, 2005 by Purple Julie

[Lablover]

This is another link which may help:

http://www.dogstuff.info/modal_theory_part1_macdonald.html

[MonElite]

I dont have it here, but I promise a photograph of my dog in prAy LOL drive, just have to scan it.

:rolleyes: And here it is

He is sooo deep in his prAy that its bordering on meditation

[MonElite]

Here is more on the "life baiting" subject

Edited June 5, 2005 by myszka

[MonElite]

Pals :rolleyes:

Taken over MY spot on theh lounge !!!

[Lablover]

Every time I see the rabbit with your dog, I cringe. Hope it never injures itself and shows blood.

Many a dog will not eat an uninjured animal, but once its skin is torn, it is a different story.

[MonElite]

Bunny is up for adoption, I have a "maybe" from a friend and will know tomorrow.

I can not keep this rabbit, it spends majority of the time locked up and doesnt get the attention if deserves. It has became very confident around my house over the weekend and walks around everywhere, dog became immune to it and ignores it completly.

But I can not leave them unatented hence it is better bunny finds a new home. Bunny is extremly friendly, toilets in one area, will not dirty its enclosure.

If anyone would like it please let me know.