Agility But He Has Agression Issues

[mrose_s]

I would love to get my dog buster (the ACD mix in my avatar) going on Agility. i jump him and train him at home. so far he can get about 1.61metres or there abouts maybe 1.9 but im not sure, but this is a biga acheivment for him considering he is only 44cm tall.

Anyway. He HATES other dogs, eventhough we have two others at home. I know I can't do any form of sport with him untill he doesnt act so aggressively towards other dogs. because he will just become completley dostracted and wont listen to a word i say. PLEASE HELP

[Erny]

You need to work with a qualified trainer and behaviourist. We could all put in some advice/tips on training and behaviour modification methods, but, in cases of aggression, I think you should look to professional help, in person (or, in this case, in dog!).

The cause of the aggression needs to be determined and then a program put in place. The behaviourist should, after thorough consultation, be able to give you some idea as to whether the aggression can be solved, or whether it can only be managed.

The trainer (who may be one and the same as the behaviourist) can put you on a training schedule and give advice to improve your dog's command responses, in particular, the recall.

As agility is (apart from the lower grades) an off-lead sport, I don't think just getting advice of the internet or from books is going to be good enough if you haven't already got some qualifications as a trainer/behaviourist in your background.

Going off-lead around other dogs would put others in danger (as you're no doubt aware, which is why you're calling for help anyway) and therefore warrants professional supervision (IMO).

Good luck - I hope your efforts afford you and your dog the luxury of enjoying dog sports! :fetch:

[Kavik]

My dog is also dog aggressive and I also want to do agility with her, so I sympathise!

My dog's recall is good though, and she is more interested in doing agility than being aggressive. She will do the course off lead fine and does not run off course looking for trouble. I can keep her attention at other times with the 'watch' command and food. Our main problem is waiting in line for our turn (this is where she gets toey), and the fact that a lot of other dogs who don't have a good recall often decide to visit other dogs, which mine does not like.

I have found a club which looks good as I can crate her in between runs and I have told them of my problem so they know to keep their distance. I have been for an intorduction, but have been too busy lately to give it a proper try. Maybe this week.

It is a good idea to get a handle on the problem first (at least a very reliable recall and be sure he won't run off course) as agility is a high energy and high excitement sport, and I have found that increased excitement = increased aggression in my dog.

[mrose_s]

he is pretty good most of the time. But if you dont grab him before he takes of he gets tunnel vision. There are no professional trainers in the area that I know of... (small town) but there are obediance classes. he is so obediant at home, but typical of his breeding also (hunting/working dog) he just has to go. Got any ideas for how i can make him see it as a job... so he knows that it is more important than the dogs?

he is very good though, he knows a lot of tricks and helpful comands ie wait and heal. but once he is outside he just goes macho and has to be in the lead. So i am working on him letting me out the door first so that he doesnt get that dominance thing going

[Erny]

he is so obediant at home, but .....

So - you know he's great at home. Now you have to train him in different environments. An unfamiliar environment can often be distraction enough, so find quiet but unfamiliar environments with minimal distractions. Then build on the distractions - ie incrementally train.

Building your dog's prey drive for motivation will also help. K9 has posted quite a number of references to his method of building prey drive. I can't remember where they are, but they're fairly recent and numerous. Check this forum (training) over the last couple of weeks.

In addition, working to emphasise your leadership is a common and valuable recommendation, and is absolutely necessary if there is any possibility that, in your dog's mind, there is any doubt of your status being higher than his.

As far as the aggression to other dogs is concerned (leadership and solid foundation training helps here too) you really do need to work with a trainer/behaviourist who can correctly guide you and your dog in a desensitisation program. It's about working with your dog in a manner and at a distance where he can retain self-control in the presence of another dog and actually come to feel comfortable about it. And then descreasing the reaction threshold over time. This can be difficult if you can't work in a controlled environment and are without guidance.

Don't have a professional trainer/behaviourist that you can go to? It is possible that a Boarding & Training kennel might be able to decrease your dog's reactivity to other dogs to a managable and satisfactory level, although there can never be any guarantees. Where are you located, Mrose_s? I might be able to recommend some training kennels with staff who have experience in this area of behaviour, if you feel this option is viable to you.

[mrose_s]

im in the NT, basically, the only kennel im aware of is one that is owned by horrible peple. we took our dogs there a coupl of year ago. just meaan. but Buster wasnt around then. And we do have dog obediance classes. Should I ring the person that does them and see if i can organise private classes.

As for the domination thing, im pretty sure he knows im the boss. He is SO protective about food, yet you have to encourage him to eat it and he stops as soon as you get any where near him. This may seem a little submissive but it is mainly my dad, he is the only one that has ever hit him properly.

[Vickie]

Mrose S,

Please don't jump your dog 1.6/1.9 metres . That is not what agility is about.

Agility is about being able to direct your dog from one obstacle to the next and this can be trained using no height at all.

My 3 dogs measure between 47-50cm and the most they are ever expected to jump is 57cm and even this will be lowered next year.

Vickie

[Staranais]

As for the domination thing, im pretty sure he knows im the boss.

No offense, but if he won't listen to you when you're out walking and constantly "goes macho", he probably doesn't know you're the boss.

Being boss doesn't mean beating up on your dog or hitting him. Look at how dogs interact with each other - the top dog hardly ever bites the other dogs. He doesn't have to, since the other dogs just know that he's top dog. You need to have the same kind of relationship with your dog.

I would do a search on NILIF ("nothing in life is free") and start using that programme with your dog - it's a great way to practice your commands while enforcing your alpha status.

I also think you've got great advice from Erny, as regards your dog only obeying you at home. When you ask your dog to do a well known trick in a new environment, it's easy to assume that your dog knows what you're asking for. The problem is that dogs don't always generalise very well. For instance if you teach him "sit!" in the bedroom he might be great at sitting in the bedroom, but might not be able to do it down at the dogpark. If you want your dog to perform well under distraction, then you need to practice with him under gradually increasing levels of distraction.

And like Erny says, getting him to a behaviourist or professional trainer who is experienced in working with aggressive dogs can only help. These folks see "problem" dogs all the time, so can help you diagnose the causes of the aggression and prescribe work to correct it.

I'd also recommend a book to you... Emma Parsons "Click to Calm". It focuses mainly on fear aggression so don't expect it to necessarily have all the answers, but it does have exercises that are good for all sorts of different dogs. And it's positive, so I think you'll like it.

Edited June 9, 2005 by Amhailte

[mrose_s]

ok, first a note to vpzn

I know that that is not what agility is about. It is because we dont have agility in our town, but what we do have is high jump, a flat wall for which the dog is to jump over, landing in a ute with hay stacks in the tray on the other side. He just kept clearing them.

ok, now to Amhailte,

I also know that dominance is not about hitting him, i can get him to sit and stay when there are fenced dogs all around (i have to walk past them when i walk him) I get him to stop and sit whenever he gets aggressive at dogs through the fene, but when dogs walk by, there is only so much i can do, so i have to get off the track as far as i can without going through a fence or falling down a rivver bank, sit him, grab his collar as it is the better chice to holding the lead, I dont want to yell at him otherwise he is disobeying and getting away with it, so i wait it out, wait for him to calm down then i say "look away" and walk on, whenevr he looks back, i keep walking and say "look away"

I know about NILIF dont worry, he has to drop for his food and I am constantly training him through hoops, barrels over jumps and tricks (spin, rolloever etc)

[Staranais]

get him to stop and sit whenever he gets aggressive at dogs through the fene, but when dogs walk by, there is only so much i can do

So, this is what I'm hearing:

1. Your dog can sit calmly when he sees dogs on the other side of the fence.

2. But he won't do that when other dogs are close by to him.

Sounds to me like you need to find your dogs "critical distance" - the distance that he can tolerate dogs at and still focus on you - and then work to decrease this distance.

How to do this?

I assume you've already taught your dog the "focus" or "watch me" command? So the next step is to start setting up situations when you know you will meet other dogs, and reward your dog for focusing on you. Don't push your dog too fast - if he starts to growl and bristle at the other dogs, you're way too close. Work at the distance that makes your dog slightly uneasy, but not actively aggressive.

You're asking your dog to do a difficult thing, so you need to make it really worth your dog's while to focus on you. Make sure your rewards are great. My dog will do just about anything for a tennis ball, and his behaviour around other dogs really improved as soon as he figured out that calmly focusing on me in the presence of other dogs invariably earned a game of chase.

What you are working towards is a dog who will focus on you on command, even if there are other dogs walking close by, because he knows paying attention to you will bring far greater rewards than fighting will.

Hope that helped.

(In case you didn't pick it up, I have a similar problem with my dog - he's quite dog aggressive, and I'd never ever let him off leash to play with strange dogs. But because I have taught him to give me his full attention on command, I can still take him to our obedience school and do some off leash agility work safely.)

[mrose_s]

in no way does he sit calmly when the dogs are in a fencem he sits just off the ground ready to shoot out again, whining and getting even more excited.

and in some places i cant stay far enough away from the dogs, the space on the path i walk is about 2 or 2 and a half metres across. its bad when other dogs come because i have to get as far off into the scrub ias a can, but i know it is too close, should i just try turning around and walking the other way untill i get a chance to head back.? but thanks for the help

[Staranais]

Aaah, I misunderstood. Sorry.

So when you say he acts excited, what exactly do you mean? If you were to let him off his leash would he go play with the other dogs, or go seriously attack them, or run in the opposite direction?

As an aside - if you can't get to a proper trainer, I'd recommend you borrow or buy Patricia McConnell's "Feisty Fido". Really useful.

Edited June 10, 2005 by Amhailte

[mrose_s]

thanks, ill buy that book this week

when i say excited, i mean if i let him off the leash he would bolt to the fence and attack the dogs on the other side with everything he had

[Coco & Buddy]

Being invoved in Agility i have seen dogs that show aggression successfully train and compete in this sport, the first step to a good Agility Dog is to build a solid relationship between dog and handler, this involves sitting at the sidelines at training classes and doing attention exercises- teaching tricks and getting dog to perform tricks for you while other dogs are doing there agility training, crating your dog while others are doing there exercise, and when its your turn bring your dog out and simply play a good game of Tug with him around obstacles, then back in crate. start with short sessions and gradually increase the time the dog gets out to play with you, Your dog learns then that when it is out of crate you are more important than anything else that goes on, a dog that shows aggression takes a lot more time and effort to train but the results are worth it.

[Kavik]

I'm beginning to think I can't be bothered to deal with the stress of doing agility with Zoe. We have done obedience for 5 years, and agility for a while. During the time we did classes, my stress levels were so high and I was always upset about her aggression and didn't enjoy her good qualities. Since I haven't been doing classes lately I am enjoying her much more, we do trick training on our walks which she loves. I don't think I can face that stress again, she'll just have to deal without agility

I am doing obedience with Diesel which has really made me appreciate how nice it is to finally have a dog friendly dog! I'll just have to wait till I get another kelpie to do agility.

[Erny]

Since I haven't been doing classes lately I am enjoying her much more, we do trick training on our walks which she loves.

Maybe this is a good place to start ... then build up? Keep the trick training going and introduce one dog, then two (over time and with distance etc etc - incremental training). Maybe classes were just too much for her to deal with all at once.

[Kavik]

I understand the principle, but the problem is how

When I take her to classes, that is exactly what I do - we do attention exercises and tricks and anything that will keep her focus, but it is very tiring (for both of us) to do it the whole class. I spend 90% of my time in class keeping her attention. NOT fun!

There is no point trying on walks - people have no clue and often their dogs are out of control. Classes - besides there being a lot of dogs, again, often their dogs are not under control. And people often don't understand that she is not friendly and get offended if you tell them to go away.

I don't know anyone with a few dogs who I trust to help me with the problem.

She is better at obedience as it is not as stimulating, agility is more exciting and more difficult to keep her attention.

[Erny]

I understand the dilemma, Kavik. I was fortunate when I was working my girl through her aggro (fear) issues. People were very curteous at the places I went to, and if I called for them to put their dog on lead, they did so without issue. I was always able to thank them and they generally seemed happy to oblige. I avoided off-leash parks (not to say everyone was on-lead where they were supposed to be, but, as I said, they were curteous - probably because they knew they should've been on lead anyway).

There were some people who, during the varying progresses of de-sensitisation, that I'd ask to help me out .... they seemed to enjoy the fact they were part of my dog's learning curve and training, and it would only take a minute or two of their time.

I guess it depends on what suburb you live in and the facilities available to you. Is there no chance that anyone from your obedience club is in your area and willing to work with you (outside of your obedience class venue) on a regular but periodic basis?

I don't know how severe your dog's aggression is, but I have found "walking parallel" a really great way to "melt the ice", even if it means initially walking one dog on one side of the road and the other on the other side, and over time, gradually coming in closer, provided the dogs remain relaxed. (Of course, you need to find a suitable area to do this, as you can hardly narrow the distance with a road in between!)

I used this "method" on a friend's dog some time ago - we walked for absolutely kilometres (the dogs were fitter than us!) with another friend walking her dog along with us (but across from us). By the end I won't say the dog with the issue was exactly bouncing to "play" with the other, but was relaxed enough to exhibit self-control and obedience compliance (including drops) by the end of the "session".

Hope you can find someone to help you out ... seems like you've put in alot of hard work already. Try not to give up on it. What about training kennels? Ever thought of that option? Can take the initial hard yacka out of it so you can carry on from there...

[Kavik]

She is actually better in a class than one on one with another dog - we can do heeling patterns fine in class, she does not try to be agro. It is more in between exercises when she has nothing to do and focus on that there are problems. We can do long stays at a distance fine. Mainly it is when dogs are relaxing and having fun (bouncing around) that she tends to get narky.

Have done the send away to get trained thing - the problem is the methods they used don't work for me - only make her worse.

[haven]

What did they do?