Training

[purplepulse]

Training this week has turned to frustration. My 18 week old pup knows sit, drop and heel but has suddenly decided “give me treats or I won’t listen”

Short of giving her a good old fashion bitch slap, what can I do to get the results without the treats?

[ElectraWoman]

It depends on how you've trained your puppy previously. If you use treats as bait, you might have taught your puppy that you are actually bribing them to follow your order.

Have you tried spacing your treats out? For instance, giving treats to your puppy every second "sit", then every third "sit"? I've found that randomizing the treats means the dog will comply more often, because they are never sure when the treats are coming.

If you really don't want to use food, you can always use toys. Although with anything, the above principle still applies.

[purplepulse]

Some times I think she’s just a bit lazy, she cant be bothered so I give it away for an hour & try again when she’s in the mood. Is this a girl thing. :rolleyes:

Here’s one for K9 Force, at what age do you use Ecollar’s

[ElectraWoman]

Again, I don't know how you've actually been training your puppy. I did pose the question earlier but either you missed it or assumed I would read your previous posts?

Why do you want to use negative methods to train basic obedience? :rolleyes:

[haven]

Why wouldn't you want to use negative reinforcement to teach basic obedience?

ETA: PP, no it's not a girl thing its a handler issue. It is your job to ensure she is motivated to work for you.

I second what EW said, don't offer treats until after the excersise has been completed and start spacing them out EG give every second time, then every third etc etc.

Edited October 26, 2005 by haven

[purplepulse]

I have been using treat & toys but would like to move away from bribes. Some days I’m amazed how well she’s doing & then the next day she just shoots me down in flames so I go back to bribes. Yesterday she was walking on a loose lead, today pulling like mad.

[haven]

Also, don't give her free access to treats and toys outside of training time. Cut down on non-contingent reinforcement if you're like me and can't help but pat your og every time you walk passed. Why would she work for something that was freely given for doing nothing 5 minutes ago and will be again in another 5 minutes?

[purplepulse]

Treats are strictly for training………..toys, um…well we do like to have a game of tug with the rope for play time & yes I do give her a pat & a scratch every time I walk past her.

[ElectraWoman]

@haven: Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the operation of e-collars, but it seems like overkill for this situation?

I always thought such devices were used as a last resort...it doesn't quite sound like the case here. Using e-collars when it sounds like a handler issue [not dog] doesn't sit right for me. It sounds like demanding compliance using fear of consequences.

@purplepulse: 18 weeks is quite young as well, so don't expect too much. There will be days when your dog will do well, and days when they'll look at you as though you've grown two heads.

The actual process of giving food - or toys - itself is not bribing. It's how you actually give food that matters.

[purplepulse]

Yes…probably getting ahead of myself a bit. Back to dog training on Sunday (no training last week)

[haven]

@haven: Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the operation of e-collars, but it seems like overkill for this situation?

I thought you were refering to the use of negative reinforcement in general, not specifically the e-collar.

I always thought such devices were used as a last resort...it doesn't quite sound like the case here. Using e-collars when it sounds like a handler issue [not dog] doesn't sit right for me. It sounds like demanding compliance using fear of consequences.

Not so long ago EW, I thought the same. However E-collars are not the 'shock collars' of old, they are a need breed (pardon the pun) of training tool. K9 Force posted a link to some info recently but I'm unsure where. Anyone able to provide it?

[purplepulse]

It sounds like demanding compliance using fear of consequences.

I haven’t used fear on her, quite the opposite.

[purplepulse]

http://www.k9force.net/ecollarlc.html

[haven]

That's the one, thanks PP.

Although her perception of the use of a E-collar my not be accurate, I agree with EW in that you don't need one to overcome the issues you are having.

[ElectraWoman]

Thanks for the link, PP. Quite informative and I like k9force's use of an e-collar.

@haven: I admit that my initial phrasing about negative reinforce was poorly-worded. I was meaning the use of the e-collar in this specific context. Negative reinforce is not bad per se, although we'll be moving into territories not specific to this thread [and I believe it has already been covered extensively in the past].

@purplepulse: Apologies, I wasn't meaning that you were using fear on your puppy right now. In fact, "fear" is the wrong term here - the appropriate term is "positive punishment" [see, I did read the link!].

[sidoney]

It's possible the dog knows the difference between you having treats (or other forms of reward) and therefore the possibility of a reward, and not having them and no possibility. Get them off your body and stash them around the place so that you can reward her unexpectedly. Do you have a bridge, eg. clicker or praise word or similar? You can give her the bridge/conditioned reinforcer and then dash off with her to a convenient location where the reward has been placed. Don't let her be able to predict whether you have the means to reward her or not.

I'd also be mixing up the reward type. Not just food. I reward with food, toy, pat, backscratch, game, allowing her to get into the car, allowing her to go out the door, etc. This leads to another point - training the dog is an all day every day thing, it's not a thing that you just do at "training time".

[purplepulse]

It could be, I’m too predictable. There are times when I call her its like “Yawn” wonders over & goes straight to “drop” position at my feet.

I’m going “No, get up I haven’t given the command yet” :rolleyes:

[haven]

Like i said, you need to motivate her, she needs to see there is something in it for her, something super duper that she won't have access to unless she sits, right now!

ETA:

It could be, I’m too predictable. There are times when I call her its like “Yawn” wonders over & goes straight to “drop” position at my feet.

Do you train this in a sequence normally? Recall then drop? If so, she may be anticipating your command. If that is the case don't punish her for it, just try not to form a pattern when you are training, mix it up.

Edited October 26, 2005 by haven

[Lablover]

Training this week has turned to frustration. My 18 week old pup knows sit, drop and heel but has suddenly decided “give me treats or I won’t listen”

Short of giving her a good old fashion bitch slap, what can I do to get the results without the treats?

This pup is 18 weeks old not 18 months, right?

What breed?

Slap? We all feel ourselves becoming frustrating from time to time. The best thing to do, is to slap overselves first, take a deep breath, stop training, have a nice drink and try to think like a dog.

[purplepulse]

Yes, 18 weeks old & I regularly slap myself, take a few deep breaths, stop training, have a nice drink (beer) but how do I think like a dog? I some times cock my leg behide the shed.