Lablover Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 KK, I apologise for confusing you with somebody elses quote. It is ..........um an "annoyance", to me, when some people think of well trained dogs as robots/machines. Good luck with your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 (edited) People often use the term robotic to describe a dog with high level training.... Foibles could cover anything from totally untrained & loveable to having a totally aggressive dog.. Except that in my post I specifically said I wasn't referring to real behavioural issues. I would also like to clarify that I 'm not saying that highly trained dogs are robotic, but that to an average dog owner whose dog has just had average training and enjoys his daily romps at the dog park and naps on the couch, a dog that doesn't show their personality through their likes/dislikes, quirks, choice of play etc etc because they have been highly trained to respond only to the trainers likes and dislikes, will seem, *by comparison* to be robotic- ie. programmed to respond on cue. I'm not making a value judgement, just trying to explain why some people may well decline to go further with training- it may not be laziness, lack of time or money. They may just prefer their diamonds in the rough state Your Foibles may be what someone else would consider unacceptable.... Yup- that's exactly right. :rolleyes: edited coz I stuffed up the quotes Kismet,I am interested in your translation regarding robotic dogs. For example, is a guide dog for the blind robotic? I understand that you mistook the poster lablover, but did you actually mistake my meaning when I used the term robotic? If so maybe my answer to K9 has clarified that for you Edited March 6, 2006 by cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Funny my dogs show their personality through play and likes and dislikes and are highly trained i watch people with dogs that come fiftypercent of the time ignore their owners but have been to trianing and enjoy romping over the hills and far away and see something undesirable and somewhat of a nuisance to toher people at the park for example we went training with a small group my dog played with me did some trianing ahd heaps of fun one pet trained dog spent half its time at the dam barking at birds and finally came back just to nick of again two others kept racing off to play but ignore their owners call to come back half the the time the other kept coming over to my dog and trying to get his toys and food ye i got in some nice training played ball rough house with the dog i let my dog have short interaction with another dog f similar size that has a nice personality and while they interacted i prctised recalls away from them and when it was time to go my dog happily trotted off with me to the car while others were still chasing their dogs in the dark lol I know which dog i'd prefer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latisha Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 (edited) Ok, just wanted to say it is 10.11pm and I have been reading this for about an hour from the start (on page 10 now) and just wanted to see how long it is going to take me to read the rest. K9, how often do you socialise / neutralise pups with other dogs or other things and for how long? Is taking the pup on the kids playground equipment for 5 mins enough for a lifetime or do you need to do it daily even if it doesn't seem bothered? This may have already been asked but I needed a break from reading. When I get a new pup, how do I go about separating / raising my little doggy from the pup? Is a crate and puppy pen enuff during the day? or is it advisable to separate the yard so they can't even see each other? Maddie (little dog) is a little submissive to bigger dogs but she usually doesn't pay any attention to other dogs, she would rather be with me. I know I can't police 2 dogs together when I am at work so I do want them separated but need a little help defining that. This may not relate to this so much but my brain is tired haha. Sorry if this has nothing to do with the price of fish in China. Whats the going rate for that nowadays anyway? haha Edited March 7, 2006 by Latisha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latisha Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 (edited) Ok, finally all done. I think the below answered one of my previous questions about the neutralisation (playground equipment, barrels etc): K9: I make sure my voice is a big motivator to the pup, I show the dog maybe a car tyre & expect him to climb through, if he is struggling, I guide & help him with the leash, when he comes out the other side & give him food or prey item. I repeat & when I see the dog activly wantin g to do it, I move to something else. The robotic label bothers me, as an owner of a dog with behavioural issues (which I caused inadvertently), I would love to follow K9s program to the end. I would much rather a dog that I could trust than one you can't even if people think it looks robotic. I went to one workshop at K9s and then worked with my dog after this with the prong and started desentisation and she came a long way. For her to walk past a dog a few metres away without going spaz was a big achievement for me (K9 did it within 30 seconds though). I know that even if I get the chance to train her again frequently, no matter how robotic she became, she would never lose her spirit or personality to her handler. The eyes do speak a thousand words and even though I only cracked the surface, she was happy and willing to do what I wanted (once I communicated what I wanted). Bub ByE!!! Edited March 7, 2006 by Latisha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 Latisha: K9, how often do you socialise / neutralise pups with other dogs or other things and for how long? Is taking the pup on the kids playground equipment for 5 mins enough for a lifetime or do you need to do it daily even if it doesn't seem bothered? K9: I do this until the puppy see's the item Im working on as neutral.... Some dogs 5 mins a few times, others it takes more... When I get a new pup, how do I go about separating / raising my little doggy from the pup? Is a crate and puppy pen enuff during the day? K9: I use a pen that would keep my pup separate from the adults whilst Im not there... or is it advisable to separate the yard so they can't even see each other? Maddie (little dog) is a little submissive to bigger dogs but she usually doesn't pay any attention to other dogs, she would rather be with me. I know I can't police 2 dogs together when I am at work so I do want them separated but need a little help defining that. This may not relate to this so much but my brain is tired haha. K9: I dont let them run together at all, seeing is ok, until Im sure the neutralisation is complete... ************************** K9: Some people like their dogs to play with others so they can be let off the hook, as someone suggested, its easier to turn up at a park & let someone elses dog entertain yours... They were right it is, its also very risky to your dog, it also teaches your dog that other dogs are of great value, greater than you, which in terms of training means that you will struggle to get any sort of reliability from your dog... Scenario: You have a dog that see's other dog as a level 10 on the scale of 1 - 10. You want this dog to recall away from that dog, the only way to get this to happen is add pressure or pain... Food will not be a level ten & even if it was, its only equal to the other dog.... If your dog see's other dogs as say a level 1 - 3 then it wont take much to get him to recall... If your dog is neutralised, the level of interest is zero... Its easy, no pressure nor pain required, like calling your dog away from a cement path.. The reasons dogs dont comply with known commands is simply, its that they havent been trained to comply under that level of distraction... Why would you make strange dogs into a high level distraction only to want to call your dogs away later? Dog packs normally dont welcome a strange dog to the pack, thats abnormal... But we expect it to happen every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I think that this subject calls for a workshop, K9 will you let me organise one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 K9: Maybe an ifo nite would be possible, with soe video footage, otherwise its hard to show the effects of the neutralisation... Like watching hair grow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Dog packs normally dont welcome a strange dog to the pack, thats abnormal... But we expect it to happen every day. I walk my dog with a group of other dogs every Sunday. We have been doing it for about 3-4 years, our dogs get along, but I have to say that they dont really play together, they just hang around. Occasionally one dog will invite another to play, its rare. They all are interested a lot more in either sniffing the bushes and having "who can mark a bigger torritory" competition or chasing ball than they have in each other. All together there are 8 dogs (5 males) Whenever we see another dog on a horison all dogs go on lead immiediatelly. People often aproach us and want their dog to play with ours but they are just turned away. There is no way that we will accept a new member to the group. Is this sort of scenario acceptable in your opinion K9? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 K9": sure thats fine as you describe it... I just wouldnt be at the park from the start... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 If the dog is neutralised why not? Providing you know other dogs and people. its not an off lead park we are breaking the law... we might see a "outside" dog there once every 6 weeks. How would this be applicable to someone with a large amount of dogs at home, if I had 6 lets say, all grown up, brought up by your method, what than? Lets use a "in theory" scenario. If I found people that brought up the dogs up in this way, would it be a problem if we met once a week? with the dogs that is Same dogs each week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I've been thinking about it and I'm still a bit confused I see the benefits of neutralisation especially in regards to recalls and formal ob work etc. But I still don't understand how you would go about it with a pup? How do you find these dogs to neutralise your dog to? People I can see how you would do it as you can control them more, but you will still have people wanting to pat it, do you just say no? And how does this help your dog to deal with (my pet hate) loose dogs running up while you are walking, whether friendly or not? Or aggressive dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 (edited) Kavik Im after a list of neutralised dogs and educated owners so I can do some desentising with Rex. Let me know when you come across one, Ill pay you for one Re people wanting to pat the puppy - just tell them that you dont want them to wipe their dirty hands on your clean dog Edited March 8, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Be sure to let me know if you find any I now have a dog aggro dog and a dog that wants to play with other dogs, but not a neutral dog! Oh, one more thing I thought of - while neutralising you are getting dog to focus on you? But doesn't that mean doing a bit of control work? And control work, (which is what I've done with food with Diesel) is why I am having problems with drive building. So how does that all work? I've loosened the control with Diesel (which means he was a bit wild at training last night!) - so how am I to control a 30kg dog if I don't use control work in ob. until this drive building stuff works anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 (edited) Kavik - I have plenty of agro or friendly dogs as well. I had one neutral dog, you have met him at K9s - Benny a GSD belonging to casima. I love Benny, but casima moved out of Sydney Re drive building v's control. I have been doing the ball thingo with him daily for a while in the same location, he is crazy about it now.... My out of control slightly driven dog has basically taken my arm off yesterday. Accidently and not intentionally I might add. Ouch!!! It was fun I find that you gain control with the drive building, the toy is like a hypnotic item you wave it above their head and if you practiced enough they will be sitting there shaking waiting for either the next comand or a release of the toy. Oh I love it, the intensity, the willingness, the look in the eyes, completly obessed... probably better look than OH when in love at first I took him to a diff location few days ago, there were barking dogs behind fences (could clearly see the dogs), a storm was forming and Rex didnt want to do the ball chasing. I persisted and done the "into my arms" thing near fences several times and he relaxed a bit. We moved away a bit and he decided that its not so bad after all and chased the ball few times. Im planning on going to the same location again over next few days. Edited March 8, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Drive building is going better here too. So far my best idea has been to tie Diesel up while I do drive building with Zoe - so he watches and gets frustrated, and then I do drive work with him and he works better. I have started doing it in a few new locations too, not as good as home, but better than before (where he wouldn't even look at it!). You didn't answer my question of how I am to control him without controlling him while I build drive I was in a different location last night and decided to guest train at a different club (my old ob club) because I was in the area, and of course Diesel decided to be wild when normally he is reasonably calm! It didn't help that the instructor did things very differently and much quicker than I was used to so I didn't get time to settle properly. And they didn't know about the training in drive or food spitting (I told them about the food spitting though)! I would have preferred it if the instructor didn't come around and give food to all the dogs - she did it so fast without telling us I didn't get time to say don't feed him. I just realised that my old dog Belle is the closest I have had to a dog neutral dog! She would have a sniff but was not interested in playing, accepts new dogs into the house, but does not want to play even when they have settled in. But she will react if the other is aggro or is barking (so she is reactive and a bit aggro I guess). Zoe of course is aggro but once they settle in (few days - week) she wants to play with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 You didn't answer my question of how I am to control him without controlling him while I build drive I only told you that Rex somewhat controls himself while in drive initialisation. He shivers tho and looks obsessed, is this what you want? Becouse I certainly preffer the "Im obsessed about you" look to "Ok I will do it becouse you asked me and I have to" look Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Unfortunately we don't have that much drive yet! If I am in a new area I am lucky if he even looks at the prey item! I got him to have a little chase last night at the different training ground (don't think we will go there often) but he didn't have a good grip - easily pulled out of his mouth. Certainly not enough drive to do focus work in a strange place, not interested enough. But he was plenty interested in other things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I dont know if thats of any use or if that is correct but... If I take Rex somewhere and he is interested in god knows what He just ends up on lead and not allowed to do what he wants. I dont correct in any way (verbally including) He just has 1m of lead and after a short tantrum of "but I want to go there, or there or sniff this or that" he just gives up and says - you stubborn b*tch you got me again. You are the only interesting thing in the vacinity of 1m, so how about I suck up to you Sucking up to me is no good unless he does something I ask..... And providing he doesnt have an issue with the area I provide the ball and triggers for play. Oh it sounds so good when I talk about it its not that rosy in reality, but we are working on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 M : If the dog is neutralised why not? Providing you know other dogs and people. K9: whats the gain? if your dog is neutralised he wont enjoy it, all that leaves you with is the risk from the other dogs... its not an off lead park we are breaking the law.. K9: lol like that worries me... How would this be applicable to someone with a large amount of dogs at home, if I had 6 lets say, all grown up, brought up by your method, what than? K9: you would either separate them, advisable, or know all your dogs better than you would know other peoples... If I found people that brought up the dogs up in this way, would it be a problem if we met once a week? with the dogs that is wink.gif Same dogs each week. K9: what for? what gain? K: I see the benefits of neutralisation especially in regards to recalls and formal ob work etc. But I still don't understand how you would go about it with a pup? How do you find these dogs to neutralise your dog to? People I can see how you would do it as you can control them more, but you will still have people wanting to pat it, do you just say no? K9: you say no to people, you control the other dogs... And how does this help your dog to deal with (my pet hate) loose dogs running up while you are walking, whether friendly or not? Or aggressive dogs? K9: The only help is that you can call your dog away before it hits the fan... M: Kavik Im after a list of neutralised dogs and educated owners wink.gif so I can do some desentising with Rex.Let me know when you come across one, Ill pay you for one K9: I can get you about 30 from memory... Didnt you see how my dogs reacts to others, even in his own territory? Oh, one more thing I thought of - while neutralising you are getting dog to focus on you? But doesn't that mean doing a bit of control work? And control work, (which is what I've done with food with Diesel) is why I am having problems with drive building. So how does that all work? K9: you teach the dog to see something new, & come to you to see what to do about it... I've loosened the control with Diesel (which means he was a bit wild at training last night!) - so how am I to control a 30kg dog if I don't use control work in ob. until this drive building stuff works anyway? K9: You ideally dont put too much control in until you get the drive where you want it, you also dont try train many things at once. If you do drive work & go to local club avoidance training (drive extinguishing training) you wont get anywhere, all you will go is give your dog more corrections.... K: You didn't answer my question of how I am to control him without controlling him while I build drive K9: You dont go to the club... I would have preferred it if the instructor didn't come around and give food to all the dogs - she did it so fast without telling us I didn't get time to say don't feed him. K9: yet another reason not to go to the club If this is to be successful, you must only do the drive building, any correction style training will kill drive... K9: I was able to find a spare few minutes on the weekend & brought my dogs out for a session to see if I could use either one in the drive workshop coming... I probably wont, reason being that when a prey item is presented they feel it will end in biting a person, we cant really have that.... Anyway it has been 3 years since I did this work with my GSD bitch who is now around 5... She had what I would call moderate to high drive for the toy... Much higher drive for a sleeve or bite suit.. I had to modify the procedure slightly as the jaws slamming shut just near my hand would have taken off a finger or hand if she got closer... She was leaping 2 - 3 metres at the glance of the toy... She would drop in drive & stay for upwards of 5 minutes under very high distraction with 100% total focus.. Other dogs there, people, car driving close to her & other dog in pack closer to the toy... Once done right this work is undoubtadly the highest level of compliance you will get.... If I can get this on video I will do & upload it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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