rdr71 Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Ok, Sasha has just turned 9 mths. I took her to puppy school for 4 weeks at 11 weeks. Then at about 17 weeks i started obedience with her once a week. She heels with a check chain collar, she sits 98% of the time, she doesnt jump much any more, her biting (puppy play) is really only with my OH who just keeps roughplaying with her. I am home a fair bit, have 2 small kids (nearly 5 and just turned 2). I rarely find the time to practice training with her in the week **big no no I know**. We play outside most days at some stage , and she is usually in for a couple of hours all up in the day and most evenings. I cant handle her inside more than that bdecause with ther 2 kids it is like a 3 ring circus. I know that probably seems harsh but I just cant do it. I have a few things going on personally and i need to reduce my stress as much as possible. She gets a walk most days - every 2nd day at worst. I am posting because this dog is driving me insane: She barks at EVERY noise she hears in the garden. Boredom? I dont know. I cant really give her more time than I am right now. Maybe when my bigger kid goes to school next yr it will be better but thats a long way away for Sasha. WHen she is inside we cannot get her to stay sitting where we want her to. We want to get her used to being in the family room with us while we have dinner since when its winter it will probably happen more often. But she wont stay. I end up yelling at her which I hate. It doesnt help and exhuasts me. I dont know what to do.,i dont know how to make this work better. I knwo I need to spend more time with her but i just cant. I mean i probably can but it will be hard. I dont know the best way to teach her to stay in one spot inside - making that her spot. And it becomes a vicous cycle because i will bring her in - she causes havoc, i send her ou t and she goes off and barks....so i want to bring her in to get some peace!!! HELP!!!! i need good advice!!!!!!!!!! Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Have you ever thought about crating her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdr71 Posted April 18, 2006 Author Share Posted April 18, 2006 well, not sure if i understand the context of crating in the question to be honest. She was crate trained for toilet training, and has a crate that she sleeps in at night (we have to bribe her in there with food every night)... how can i incorporate the crate into solving my problems? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog_Horse_Girl Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Have you ever thought about crating her? Ditto. That and NILIF Training (Nothing In Life Is Free). Make her work for *everything* esp your attention. Give her a good walk every morning, no excuses! This will help. But you must be above her in the pack and ATM I'm not sure she gets that message. When she comes indoors, have her in a 'down stay' for a good 15 minutes before releasing her. This is to reinforce that you are above her in the pack and that she must respect your position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melisski Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 A 15 min down stay for a 9mth old dog might be a bit much... Try incorporating the crate during the day. Bring her inside, and put her in there with maybe a biscuit or chew toy to amuse her. Start off with only small period (eg. 5 - 10 minutes) and build it up. You might want to bring the crate into the family room during the day so she can still watch what it going on but not be in the way as such. You may find after a while she will start to go in there herself during the day for a snooze or whatever (which is good). Basically it means you can contain her inside (and stop the barking) without having to watch her 24/7. As long as you're not crating her all day she should be fine, just make sure she's got something to amuse herself with. Basically, the crate becomes 'her place' ALL the time, not just at bedtime. Like having her own room I agree with the walking also. Even if you can only walk her for 10 - 15 minutes some days, it's better than nothing. If you do it in the morning it'll wear her out a bit (hopefully) for the rest of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdr71 Posted April 18, 2006 Author Share Posted April 18, 2006 its interesting what u say about being above her in the pack. that is totally spot on. i tihnk she thinks she is the boss. i am having enough issues with my nearly 5 yr old that challenge me daily - so having Sasha jumping on the bandwagon is really pushing my limits. How do i even approach a 15 min down stay? and with the crate, what do i do when she barks in there - which let me tell u she will do for sure. thanks guys i am really really appreciating these responses because i am feeling really worried about this Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Sorry, I left work and went home! Yeah crate her inside for small periods like 15 minutes If she barks, ignore it til she is quiet, and only ever praise her when she is quiet it will drive you more nuts at the start but she will start to understand quickly Chew toys and long lasting treats are good as they show her the crate is good Oh, and when the time is up, don't let her out if she is barking only if she is quiet Start the down stay at 30 seconds, then a minute, and build it up til she knows that it is expected EVERY time no exceptions My two still get a treat when they go to bed, not because they need it to go in but just becasue they like it, sometimes they evn put themselves to bed, no treat required! Make sure you do the same things every time, and don't do one thing one day and ot the next, like if you make her drop when you come in, do it every time or she will think it's optional I'm no expert at all, so others may have other ideas, my two 9 month olds staffords are pretty good, though goldies are known for not wanting to grow up lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldielover Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Hiya Ruth, Sorry luv, but i think you'll just frustrate yourself even more expecting Sasha to stay in the one spot. I'm working on 'stays' with Chelsea now, and i'm lucky to get 5 seconds LOL. The crate is a good idea if you want to keep her near you. Naturally you will have to keep working at 'stay', but to be honest my other girl, Jazz, didn't conquer the stay (for anything over a minute or 2) until she was around 1.5 years old. Work on the stays at your leisure and don't try any training if you're feeling down or in a bad mood. Another thing you could consider is a puppy pen... gives her a bit more room than a crate (you could even buy 2 and connect them together) and provide her with toys.. Chelsea looovees Nylabones and Pup Treads! Do you have Clints Warehouse there? They sell puppy pens quite cheaply. They're not the sturdiest, but it will probably suit your purpose. It's so hard when time is limited, but the more time and effort you put into Sasha now, the better she will be as an adult. Is your hubby able to take her for a walk in the evenings? With training, even 5 minutes every day or 2 will help. It's better than nothing. Is she still going to obedience classes? Be great to keep that up as it forces you to get out with her, and it's great for her to keep up the socialisation with other dogs and people as well. It's a rough age for a Goldie... they have boundless energy and they're also larger and increasingly difficult to control. Another year and she'll be an angel!! LOL (sorry!). I haven't had to deal with barking a lot.Chelsea is more of a barker than Jazz, but isn't too bad. Some people have had success with associating barking with something negative eg using a bottle to squirt water at them whenever they bark, but i can't really help ya there. Also, don't forget to take a bit of time out for yourself!! I'm no expert at all, so others may have other ideas, my two 9 month olds staffords are pretty good, though goldies are known for not wanting to grow up lol LOL oh yeah!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 Yeah a puppy pen is a good idea too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melisski Posted April 18, 2006 Share Posted April 18, 2006 How do i even approach a 15 min down stay? and with the crate, what do i do when she barks in there - which let me tell u she will do for sure. thanks guys i am really really appreciating these responses because i am feeling really worried about this Ruth With the down stay, I really wouldn't attempt it yet if you can't supervise her fully - if you can spend 5/10mins a day training her do it then (when your focus is on her!). Don't try to do it when you're occupied with the kids - it just means if she gets up and moves around after a minute you're basically letting her think she's allowed to do so. Maybe when she barks in the crate try squirting her with a bit of water/vinegar mix, if she's really annoying. Like SM said, do try to ignore her at first... but if not, squirt her. I've got a barker here too (Indy) and I've found the best way to stop it is to either ignore her, or when she really gets into it, make a really loud noise (eg. bang two pans together or something). It takes her by suprise and then she will stop. If she's occupied in the crate (eg. nylabones, a kong, anything) then she'll be too busy chewing to bark I had a GR/Lab cross who would chew for hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdr71 Posted April 18, 2006 Author Share Posted April 18, 2006 ok well thanks for the reality check on the stay thing Jen.....but can anyone just clue me in on the way to start the whole down stay thing for when Sashie is ready? i dont even know the best way to go about it. What to do when she gets up etc. What sort of tone to use....yknow all that sort of stuff. I find that very little really grabs her attention chew wise. Also we have a small problem with her getting diahrea when she has something different/more commercial. Does anyone know of any real winners when it comes to chewie things? She like pigs ears...but Im not sure how often she can get them at her age. We do have clints, will take a look next time i am near. I am trying to make her work for everything - she has to sit when i put her food down, she has to sit outside before i let her come in and i am trying to get her to sit at least when she first comes inbut not much success with that one , but then im not being consistent. Speaking of which - my OH doesnt make her sit everytime he feeds her and lets her in without getting her to sit. So the poor dog is getting mixed messages all the time. I just cant seem to get my OH to take these little things seriously. He doesnt get that she will be an out of control adult dog if we dont get it right NOW. (kind of like kids really...) Anyway am going to realy try and do some training with her every day. And Oh took her for a walk this morning. See, we do a 4km walk on alternate mornings snd that is too far for Sasha so we just ahve to try and squeeze in her walk as well somehow ...we talked about it this morning and will try and do it. She is compltely zonked out on her bed outside at the moment - so it certainly tired her out!!! Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldielover Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 Chelsea loves Kongs (only if there's food stuffed in them), Pup Treads and Nylabones to chew on. At the moment she has a T-Bone Nylabone and she loves it! You can get them at most pet supply places. If you have Pet stock there, i know they sell them cheaply. Just work gradually with the stays, even if you have to hold her in position for a few seconds, then praise when she has done it. Personally i don't expect more than 10 seconds from Chelsea as i know i'm not gonna get it! LOL... she has zero attention span. I know how frustrating it can be when they just don't get it. At the moment i'm focusing on recall more than anything. Also bear in mind that if you're not going to be doing obedience trialling, do what works for you!!! When on a walk, Jazz would never stand stay eg when she was off lead and we were getting close to a road. Once i yelled out 'wait!' and she did... she knows 'stay' now, but for some reason on walks she will respond better to wait, so that's what i use! It's also harder for you... i have no kids to try and control as well! With the walks, could you possibly change your routine so Sasha could go along? eg do a 1km walk with her, drop her at home, then continue on? We had to do that as well. I'd take Jazz and Chelsea and return Chels when i'd walked about 15 to 20 mins. She's 10 months now, so i do walk her 20 to 30 mins now (i don't jog or run though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog_Horse_Girl Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 If your partner is not giving the dog the same signals you are, I'm afraid your job will be that much more difficult. If he's not willing or not able to work with you, then the dog will become increasingly confused and you will likely never train/teach her to do what you require. IMO he either works to your instructions, or he leaves her alone. He is doing more harm than good ATM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldielover Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 If your partner is not giving the dog the same signals you are, I'm afraid your job will be that much more difficult. If he's not willing or not able to work with you, then the dog will become increasingly confused and you will likely never train/teach her to do what you require.IMO he either works to your instructions, or he leaves her alone. He is doing more harm than good ATM. Certainly doesn't make it any easier when people aren't consistent. My (almost ex) partner would completely disregard anything i said or asked him to do with regards to the dogs and it's been like fighting an uphill battle the whole time. Thank goodness Jazz was a sensible girl, otherwise god knows how she would have turned out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerJack Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 but can anyone just clue me in on the way to start the whole down stay thing for when Sashie is ready? I can tell you how I was shown the downstay by my Kelpie breeder and you can start now. It has been the most useful thing and it reinforces that I am pack leader. It is certainly easier to start on a baby puppy but you can do it on an older dog, it just takes longer. Unfortunately, you are pressed for spare time and , at least in the first few days this might take a bit of time. You need to understand that if you decide to do this, you have to keep going until the dog relaxes and stays down. If you get sick of it after half an hour (took me 45 minutes the first time) and let her up then all you've done is reinforce that she is in charge. Each time you do it, it takes less and less time and eventually it is just a verbal thing. First time - choose a word that will be the command and will always mean 'time to settle down and wait until I'm ready to pay attention to you.' I use 'settle.' (I don't use 'down' as I use that more during obedience type activities.) Sit down on the floor with the pup, tip them over onto their side and say the command word - settle in my case, and let go of the dog. (Doesn't matter how the dog is lying, as long as they are off their feet.) The dog will promptly try to get up. Don't raise your voice, just tip them over again and say settle again. Repeat - endlessly. The thing with this is that you must let the dog go, don't hold them down. The dog has to have the choice to obey or not. You have to have the persistence the first few times to outlast the dog. Like I said, it took 45 minutes the first time with my Kelpie until she relaxed and stayed down. The next time it was 30 minutes. Now she does it almost instantly, wherever she is and it also works as a stop command at distance. She is only 11 months old now. Once the dog relaxes and chooses to stay down, you don't have to elave them there long, especially at first. Keep them donw for a minute whilst still and then release and reward. The dog learns that to relax and stay down does not mean sitting still for an endless time. Work on increasing the time they stay still after you work on getting an immediate response to the settle command. The dog will learn that you are the boss because unless they choose to stay where they are, they will be told to settle again. It gives you a command that they know means 'down' and it gives you pack leadership over the pup, which carries through to everything else you do with them. With regards to the barking, get the downstay going and then, when she barks, tell her to settle. It gives you soething to stop a behaviour with. Good luck and let us know how you go. Jo + Kobe the Kelpie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdr71 Posted April 19, 2006 Author Share Posted April 19, 2006 Tigerjack thankyou so much for that lengthy and informative post about the down stay - that is exactly what i needed to hear. I will definitely try that. Is it a case of doing that EVERY time we let her in? and yes i know it is an uphill battle with my OH and training the dog. he has never had a dog before so he is like a kid with it - just wants to hang out with it, let it lick him all over, playbite, doesnt want to be "mean" etc.....i am constantly reminding him that we are looking at a lot more frustration down the track if he doesnt do it properly now. But he wants to take a big role with the dog because it has been his dream. So its a tricky one thats for sure! Thankyou to you guys who responded - this has been GREAT help Ruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 Ahhh yes what is it with OHs ... mine thinks that a little rough housing with a 47kg puppy is a FABULOUS idea ... and then wonders why the dog wont listen to him at all ... infact Skoots common reply is either a fart or he goes back to sleep Easy way to fix this is to let the OH be in charge of leading the dog on walks. Chances are the pup will tug and be a pain in the A$$ to him because it wont respect him. If you refuse and get him to be the sole leader he will soon get fed up with being yanked around by the dog Also get him involved in the obedience side, get him to come to obedience classes etc and dont let him back out. He can then see how embarressing it can be when everone else puts in the effort of training and SOME individuals insist on mucking it up... sometimes peer pressure is a good thing hehe Remind him that its not being mean, its being responsable. That puppy will one day grow into an adult dog which has the capabilities of inflicting serious damage if it has control issues. Ask him what then? Pound? Put it to sleep? Pass it off free to another unsuspecting family? And if it seriously injures a child it will be too late. We are women ... we have the power of guilt so use the force wisely my young acolyte ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerJack Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 Is it a case of doing that EVERY time we let her in? Ruth - to do the down stay the way I have described, you need to find some time (maybe when the OH and the kids aren't home) where you won't be interrupted. Do it as I described for as long as it takes for the dog to relax and stay down. Might be 45 minutes the first time. Leave them down only for a tiny time once they have relaxed so that you have released the dog, rather than the dog getting up themselves (because in that case, you haven't finished and have to keep putting them down until they relax and stay down.) It takes less time each time you retry this. Its only the first few times, while the dog is learning this that it will take a long time. Maybe it will take longer with an older pup than it will with a baby one, I don't know. For the first few times, try and do it without the family around distracting the dog. This will also reniforce that you are the pack leader, rather than OH unless he does it too. Once the dog gets the hang of 'settle' (or whatever word you choose) meaning lie down, then you won't have to physically touch the dog at all and the dog will do it themselves. Once she understands the command, I would let her into the house, take her to the spot you want her to drop and give her the command. Once she drops, tell her to stay and leave her. If she gets up, don't raise your voice, just take her back and put her in a downstay again. The trick is to outlast her. (And she will test you out so stick with it!) I'd have a regular spot that is hers, maybe with a mat and she will start to identify it as her spot. Persevere, my 8 week old pup understood it within a week and she will now 'settle' wherever she is at whatever distance away from me and she is 11 months old now. Something else to try to reinforce the pack order is to hand feed for a while. This is the NILIF principle. (Nothing in life is free.) Take the dogs normal ration of dinner and do not put it into the dinner bowl. Take the dog and spend 5 minutes training. The dog has to work for dinner and a Goldie is going to want dinner so will work for you. Just do simple things like sit, stay, heel around the yard, drop etc and every time the dog does something right then feed a bit of dinner. AFter about 5 minutes of this, give a command yuo know the dog will obey like sit, and feed the rest of the dinner. You should see how well my Kelpie obeys me when she's waiting for dinner and the other dogs have already started. Remember, its only time consuming at the start. Persevere and it will quickly get easier and it will pay off in the long run when your dog is an adult that obeys you. Consider crate training but do some research and do it properly, don't just stuff a dog in a crate or it will be perceived as punishment. Good luck and keep taking her to obedience training too. Jo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 K9: as a base program for respect & control, try my program the Triangle of Temptation... Its here in DOL, there is a later version & the basic version, if you cant find it PM me & I will email it to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted April 20, 2006 Share Posted April 20, 2006 I did ToT with an over the top foster and found it effective and easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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