Herding: Round Yards

[stumped]

The least complicated way is to be in line with the stock, then just whssh him to go, he cant go wrong way then, as he commits to a direction, move towards the stock and a little in to him to get the slightest kick out as he passes you heading to the sheep, any deviation is a plus and you can give it a nome at this point if you wish . Then basically, follow his path to encourage him to go right round to a nice position and as you can stop him, pull him up as you back away , so he has somewhere to bring them and thinks you sent him further than you did, it is about his perception of the job.

regards Tony

[WorkNBCs]

We haven't done much on his cast yet but he does tend to go in quite straight and then arc around - the sheep he is working are well-dogged and so he gets away with it but I don't think he will have much success with that method with flightier sheep. I'm more interested in getting a cast like your boy - more pear shaped - looks lovely and doesn't hurry the sheep. How does he keep control of just two?

Hi again Superminty - first of all casting - it has been about the last thing I really worked on (but he needs more on his walk up too). Before really working on casting I worked on distance so that he knew what "get off" meant. Then back to the drawing board with his cast which had been pretty horrible.

I started with sheep in a small pen and sent him round with me right up at the pen pushing him out with the "get off" command. When he got the idea that he really had to get behind them - it was out in the paddock - and again I started up close to the sheep gradually moving back towards him. He is a pretty smart dog and soon realised that if he kept his distance the sheep were not going anywhere. His cast is a bit shallow still but luckily he has a pretty reasonable stop and again learned that if he stopped so did the sheep - well hopefully. As you move away from the sheep you need to be aware of where he starts to slice in and put pressure on him just before that point. With Tex I found myself moving out toward him and then up toward the sheep to get that result - a sort of L shape. Hope that is some help.

His back cast still needs some work as he tends to cross - something I inadvertantly trained in to him. I made the mistake of concentrating on his good side (the round) to the point where he has got it into his head that he needs to go that way and for now that is the way I would always cast him in a trial. We are starting to get somewhere on the back side to the point where I am now about half way back on a 150m cast. Interestingly when he doesnt cross his back cast is probably slightly better. I would recommend that when you are working on casting you do as much one side as the other so Cash learns that he is supposed to do it whichever way you send him.

As for how do I work with just two sheep? LOL it is about the only way I can get them to move because they are so dogged. We have six or seven of us train here on a fairly regular basis and those sheep know the routine and know the dogs. I only have nine merino wethers which with just 30 acres of not very good ground under pasture is a bit of a luxury anyway. Normally I can use my ewes but they are running with the ram right now and some out of season lambs which are too young to work are in with them anyway. The upshot is some very quiet sheep which is great when you are teaching something new but not so good if you really want to test your dog.

Cheers

[WorkNBCs]

Anyone got an answer for why the border collie didn't herd the pet sheep in the flock?

LOL CTD you are going to get into trouble if you say that about kelpies - some of us might say the same about some lines of show bred BCs too - especially the black and white ones.

Interesting question about the pet sheep - I would be inclined to make my dogs go and put it in with the mob if it was mine if only to make sure that the dogs dont learn that it is OK to leave one or two behind. Tex was particularly prone to doing that - but less so now because I would insist - as long as he had something to work it didnt really matter. Dogs with a lot of eye will tend to concentrate on the leader/leaders which could be an explanation but doesnt sound like it if that was the only one that was left.

The only other thing I can think of is that the pet sheep has been away from other sheep so much that it doesnt behave or move like a sheep so the dog thinks it isnt one - sounds a bit strange but some friends of mine have a pet lamb that lives as part of the family - it runs with the dogs and their jack russells and border collies treat it like it is just another dog.

Cheers

[jesomil]

My dog was taught the cast by leaving him in a stay then walking half way between him and the stock.

I then sent him and would step towards him to encourage him to arc out.

Then we got to the stage where i would lob my poly pipe at the area i didnt want him to be if he cut in. That worked wonders. Greg Prince showed us how to use the poly pipe toss. Has anyone else used this?

Now he does a lovely wide arc but i still use OUT if he gets a bit enthusiastic and tries to cut in. He is a natural forceful, in close dog, so we had to work quite hard on getting him out. I am hoping maturity will settle him also.

I also booked in for the seminar. You will have to come and say hello to me as I will be probably the only with a choc and white border so should be easy to pick. LOL. All your kelpies look alike. LOL )))

Thats great that you have booked in, its going to be a great day!!You will be easy to spot .

You have to meet a few working line Kelpies. They all look completely different as they have been bred for work not looks. Unlike the show bred dogs which are all bred to a standard and look the same the working dogs come in short/tall, short haired/semi long haired, leggy/stocky ugly/pretty etc etc etc.

[WorkNBCs]

Then we got to the stage where i would lob my poly pipe at the area i didnt want him to be if he cut in. That worked wonders. Greg Prince showed us how to use the poly pipe toss. Has anyone else used this?

Yes I used to poly pipe or honky nuts to show him what I meant by out (but I use get off) - he got the idea fairly quickly and now kicks out beautifully when I ask him to get off. I started by just stepping towards him and saying "out" but he didnt really get that and would only go out to a maximum of around 15m. I then changed the command to "get off" to avoid confusion and used the poly and it worked wonders. The guy I go to for training basically uses the same method and structure as Greg Prince and they talk to each other all the time too so a lot of the stuff I have been told is probably pretty similar to Greg Prince.

Incidentally someone told me that Greg Prince kept his trainers for nine years - anyone know if there is any truth in that? I can't imagine keeping my poor old dogged down wethers that long!

Cheers

[whatevah]

I was just joking about all kelpies looking alike, thats why I put the smilie after it. Just meaning I think I will be easy to pick. I mean went i went to the first flatcoat retreiver fun day I memorised my dogs colour collar as I thought I might go home with the wrong dog. There are some border collies that all look alike to me as well. But to try and look at your kelpie on the computer and then to try and find which one is he/she would be very challenging. At drouin where I did the herding this lady had some lovely mismarked border collie pups. One had markings like a hereford, and a black ear. I watched her kelpie and her border herd and completely different. Does anyone do herding with cattle? I have heard that some kelpie and cattle dog owners were looking to do this.

[mjk05]

Re the pet sheep- I had 3 hand raised lambs from last year's lambing, and they've been put in with the trainer mob (about 15-20 killers and experienced trainer sheep). Initially they were a nightmare to work with dogs, because the 3 lambs wouldn't move off the dog, they'd walk straight past them, they didn't follow the other sheep, and they didn't behave normally with people either. When a dog went around the sheep, the lambs might go with the flow, or they might just go half-way and then decide to turn around and walk straight past the dog.

Some of the dogs tried really hard to put them back, others gave up. I think the main problem was that the pet lambs didn't watch the dogs, didn't make eye contact at all, didn't even acknowledge that the dog was there. It wasn't really fair to the dogs, so we used to draft off the pet lambs and use a smaller group to train on.

Now, after quite a few months running with the mob, and occasionally being worked by dogs that gave them reason to notice, the pets behave basically like other trainer sheep, and we can work them with beginner dogs.

Hopefully they'll form the new core of our long-term trainer mob -we have a couple of excellent training sheep that will live out their lives as trainers, in amongst various killers and lighter sheep, so we can alter the mix for different dogs.

Greg Prince showed us how to use the poly pipe toss. Has anyone else used this?

Yep (having done lots of training with the same trainer as WorkNBcs)- and its worked well for most. One of mine couldn't care less, but seems to be figuring out a natural cast based on experience.

We have been warned about a top local trialler who was using this technique and the polypipe bounced off hard ground and hit the dog in the shoulder, end on, shattering her shoulder. So its not something I'd use lightly. Or maybe try hosepipe or horsepats or softer options. I'm working on stopping the dog if they go too tight, walking in and recasting, to teach them to move out, but its not quite the same as having an "out" command. Anyone read Derek Scrimgeour's basic training book?

We have six or seven of us train here on a fairly regular basis and those sheep know the routine and know the dogs. I only have nine merino wethers which with just 30 acres of not very good ground under pasture is a bit of a luxury anyway. Normally I can use my ewes but they are running with the ram right now and some out of season lambs which are too young to work are in with them anyway. The upshot is some very quiet sheep which is great when you are teaching something new but not so good if you really want to test your dog.

Well you're quite welcome to visit us some time if you feel like a change , especially for some farm work, help is always appreciated! Nothing like working a big mob for a change.

I think some local training days are being planned anyway, to give us all a chance of a change or location and a range of sheep.

[WorkNBCs]

Some of the dogs tried really hard to put them back, others gave up. I think the main problem was that the pet lambs didn't watch the dogs, didn't make eye contact at all, didn't even acknowledge that the dog was there. It wasn't really fair to the dogs, so we used to draft off the pet lambs and use a smaller group to train on.

Now that sounds like a better reason than mine and makes sense. Presumably because they were pets they they were exposed to dogs albeit at a reasonable distance and so lost respect for them/saw them as nothing to fear or be concerned about.

We have been warned about a top local trialler who was using this technique and the polypipe bounced off hard ground and hit the dog in the shoulder, end on, shattering her shoulder.

It must have hit pretty hard to do some serious damage - I thought the idea was more to waft it gently - but I am English and anyone who has been watching the cricket this year would probably have little faith in my throwing ability. (and yes I have had some stick about it in training sessions). Honky nuts are pretty good because you really can lob then and they dont bounce much - same with small sticks. Fortunately Tex learned it pretty fast so I rarely need it nowadays.

Well you're quite welcome to visit us some time if you feel like a change , especially for some farm work, help is always appreciated! Nothing like working a big mob for a change. I think some local training days are being planned anyway, to give us all a chance of a change or location and a range of sheep.

That sounds like a great idea - you are only about a couple of hours from us and I have been told to give the boy as much away from home experience as I can - although he is pretty controlled here and a few other places he goes regularly - no guarantees that he wont go feral at first although he is getting much better. I tend to be a bit pushed in the mornings with the kennels although I could pay someone and get away for a day once in a while. Take it you guys wont be at Esperance but please keep your fingers crossed for us. Catch up soon anyway - cheers

[jesomil]

We have been warned about a top local trialler who was using this technique and the polypipe bounced off hard ground and hit the dog in the shoulder, end on, shattering her shoulder. So its not something I'd use lightly

Wow, i have never seen it used that hard before. I called it the poly pipe toss because thats the best description i could think of for the manner in which it is thrown. Greg Prince only tosses it.

That person must have been doing some serious throwing. I generally cant throw it the distance i need to and it generally doesnt end up in the right place as i am a bit unco with my throwing but there is definately no way a dog could be injured by it.

[superminty]

Ok, here's my attempt at casting using tmc's advice

Sorry it's so short but there was a naughty puppy moment that I had to edit out...

Now I just need to work on pushing him out more. I have been shown the "poly pipe toss" but don't have much confidence in my throwing ability or my timing - comes with experience I guess.

By the way, what's a honky nut?

[stumped]

Good job SM, you can see the shape of his cast is correct in that practice, you just need to keep him off a bit around the back, stop him and back up to give him a "lift" by letting him advance only until the sheep move and stop him , this cuts down on the rushing in. Good luck with him and well done for videoing and working to improve, hopefully you will get some good help from someone that can watch the dog work first hand, easier to judge what needs to be worked on,

l love working dogs, Tony

[WorkNBCs]

By the way, what's a honky nut?

A honky nut is a gum tree nut - the ones I use are about the size of a ping pong ball because that is what we have in our paddocks rather than for any other reason.

Nice video he is starting to get out a bit. If you can physically take a step towards him rather than just wave the poly that is likely to push him that extra bit.

Cheers

[MrsD]

Love all the advice & videos . I took Jonty & Jarrah for their first taste of herding yesterday, both look very promising (despite working very differently) & loved it (& were very keen to go back & do more when the other dogs were having a go ).

Now we just have to wait another week & a bit until we can go again - that's the hardest part ;) .

[whatevah]

But have you got videos? LOL Have never seen a sheltie heard. herd.

[MrsD]

No, no videos, didnt have anyone to take one cos I was in the yard with them. Jonty was very good, stayed off the sheep quite well & didnt crowd them. He was only in there for 5 minutes or so but was changing direction by himself by the end if we shifted position & headed the sheep.

Jarrah was also very good but very different, he stayed off the sheep & used all of the yard as well, but uses alot more eye & more attitude than Jonty, he had to get told off a couple of times for ignoring the staff & a stop he even tried to bite it once ;) but got told off & worked really well after that. I was worried that he may be a bit too pushy with the sheep & work too close but considering the size of the yard I think he was great .

MrD will be there next Sunday so I'll get a video of them both in action & will put it up.

ETA - Im planning on doing their HIT at the Belgian Shepherd trial in April & then see how they go from there.

Edited February 10, 2007 by MrsD

[WorkNBCs]

Have never seen a sheltie heard. herd.

There are a few shelties over here in WA that have been herding - but on quiet sheep as a rule. I think a couple got their Pre trial but I have been a bit out of touch with ANKC herding here so someone else would need to confirm that. I heard a three sheeper comment once that he had seen some really good ones - but it was a shame that they would never do three sheep because their little legs were not long enough to catch up with runny merinos. I would love to see someone get one really fit and prove him wrong - if only to see everyone's faces. I have really liked watching the ones I have seen and they certainly enjoyed it.

Look forward to seeing your guys on film MrsD - now you have said you are doing it we are going to harass you till you do.

Just as an aside - do you realise this is just about the busiest thread in the training/obedience/dog sports forum - who said we were a minority sport?

Cheers

[MrsD]

WorkNBCs keep your fingers crossed for that video cos its raining here atm & is predicted to go on for most of the week, so no herding if it's too wet. Cant complain though we so desparately need the rain .

And minority sport or not, I certainly enjoyed it & enjoy reading the discussions about it (even though I rarely ever contribute anything ).