Trouble With Recall

[Kerrin]

thanks working setters and everyone else who has given input i will try a few of the ideas to see what works best then stick at that one. Its so frustrating as ive only ever owned border collies or some type of working dog and all ive had to do is think about what i want them to do and its done lol

[ILFC]

WS- this sounds bad- but I don't personally know that many people with dogs- and no one with what I would call well trained. The people at the park just let their dogs go- and I only know them for a polite chit chat. We go to agility training- he recalls there- do you think that is Mid level? Seems quite exciting-lots of dogs-barking etc. Just don't know where to get a well trained dog. to practise with...Any other Mid level ideas?

[Tangwyn]

Lastly -if you dog is free running in a high level distraction environment and you don’t think your dog will recall, then don't give the command.

ILFCs,

This is the key. If you give a command, (eg "Come") and the dog ignores it you need to be in a position to follow up immediately with a correction. If you're not in a position to follow up immediately and you think your dog is likely to ignore the command do not give the command at all. Go get him instead. Every time you allow your dog to disobey a command or ignore an instruction you actively de-value that command or instruction.

Personally, I'm all for keeping the dog on a long line until you have proofed the recall.

As for feeding out treats, there is a bit of an art to getting the treat into the right dog when you're being mobbed by a pack of dogs. Make sure your treats are soft so that they are swallowed easily and hold it tightly in your fist until its your dog's mouth against your hand. Then quickly slip the treat straight into your dog's mouth. The other dogs won't even know what happened. You will only get into problems if you throw treats on the ground or drop them.

Hope this helps.

He's a smart dog - I'm sure you'll do ok.

[Working_Setters]

WS- this sounds bad- but I don't personally know that many people with dogs- and no one with what I would call well trained. The people at the park just let their dogs go- and I only know them for a polite chit chat. We go to agility training- he recalls there- do you think that is Mid level? Seems quite exciting-lots of dogs-barking etc. Just don't know where to get a well trained dog. to practise with...Any other Mid level ideas?

Did you say you do Ob as well as agility, if so, there must be somebody at the Ob club that would help you out. It will only take 10 min of their time after the regular class is over. If you don't do Ob, perhaps approach the head instructor at a couple of local clubs, they are usually "doggy people" and you might find one willing to help you. If no luck with the Ob clubs, where do you live, I know there are a number of DOLers with well trained dogs, maybe one of them lives close enough for you to access. I guess if all else fails, you could pay a pro trainer and use their dogs. (If their dogs aren't reliable enough on recall to be of any use, I'd definitely be finding another trainer).

Also try training at the dog park, but with a twist. You walk and train your dog on the outside of the fence. Your dog will be plenty distracted by the smell, sight and sound of his old play buddies through the chain link fence, but you'll be able to train with a long line, treats or whatever without interference from the other dogs.

Lastly, IMO there are very few people that can train what I consider a reliable recall with 100% positives and treats. Those that can do so by conditioning the dog from a very early age and for you it's too late for that (again IMO). So I would suggest that +90% of the time your dog should be succeeding and you should be praising/rewarding him. But when that 10% come up, you must be prepared to correct and leave no doubt in your dog's mind about the seriousness of it's transgression. You must also be in a position to administer this correction very quickly, as soon as possible after your dog fails to comply.

Other mid level distractions, cats, birds, rabbits, food, toys, it really depends on what your dog values. Anything that will tempt your dog not to recall, but not tempt so strongly that he will fail the test regualrly.

If all that fails, see a pro and learn how to use an e-collar.

Edited March 22, 2007 by Working_Setters

[Erny]

8 months; 12 months; 18 months; 2yo > 3yo.

All the typical (approximate) ages when our dogs seemably 'lose' what we recognise as responsive training. Quite often this isn't recognised because it occurs incrementally. First a little something like (eg) a "sit" where this one day we had to remind him by putting our hand on his butt (which we more recently didn't have to do); or a "drop" to which he normally responds on the first command, but this time needed two commands for compliance. Before we know it, we're seeing real command response deficiencies - usually evidenced when we don't get them but NEED them.

You do need to factor in to account things (ie sufficient training under distraction; reward level for compliance; etc.) to which you know you have or haven't trained your dog in and whether the training environments have been generalised, but it is not uncommon at all for people to be surprised that their dog simply began to ignore them - either in one or more commands, and typically the off-lead re-call, because it is the more difficult of commands to attain and maintain and because we are often in a position of minimal to zero control - so we can't enforce it. And the dog is very quickly self-reinforced for his non-compliance.

As soon as you detect your dogs have 'slipped' in any command, first ask as to whether it is because you haven't trained thoroughly for it. If this is the case, then you have just identified an area that requires more training.

If you're in an environment where it has previously not been a problem but now is, take stock of your leadership and the possibility that your dog is 'testing' it (and hence losing respect for you to govern) and immediately take a step back in training (ie back on the lead) whilst you re-adjust your heirarchy status to your favour.

When you're certain that you've covered all of the above then yes, steps need to be taken to show the dog something he doesn't like will occur if he doesn't heed your command. As to what this is does depend on the dog. A remote trainer, used appropriately and timely, is often a tool which brings efficient success. But there are some few dogs for which this might not be necessary or even suited. IMO it should not be experimented with unless you are aware of how to recognise and achieve the stimulus at your dog's working level and should not first be applied in an unsafe (ie unfenced) area until you know your dog's reaction to it once off the lead. If recalling from other dogs is the problem, you also need to understand your timing - application of a stimulus in the very close proximity of other dogs can be paired by some dogs as having come from another, and a negative emotion towards other dogs can be developed if not handled with care.

A friend's dog would have found even the lowest stimulus from an e-collar as overwhelming. We set the situation up (time and time again, waiting for the 'event' to happen). On the occasion when he did not recall, I had my friend quickly return to her car. In the meantime, I went to him, clipped him to a long line, tethered him to a tree and stood away out of sight (but where I could see him). I allowed him to watch his owner drive off.

For a long time he did not refuse the recall after that.

This won't work for all dogs nor necessarily many and only the level of negativity the dog derives from it will dictate its success. The negative emotion must be greater than the positive emotion your dog receives for having ignored your recall command in the first place (and conversly the positive emotion for compliance must outway the negative your dog receives from coming away from where he was). Another downfall is that you generally need a partner to work with you on it.

Edited March 22, 2007 by Erny

[ILFC]

Yes-I do Ob training too! You know WS I never thought of that- my instructor may help me withh a trained dog. He is certainly back on the lead in a high stimulus situation-low no probs-mid level will be testing it out. Erny the driving off bit would work but my only help would be the OH and he loves him too much to care if I leave. What do you mean correct him? smack, drop stay or back on lead and head home? I could adminster quickly- I am a fast runner! I've never really known what do re; correction wise with running off. Like, all you read in books is don't punish for not coming or the dog won't want to come to you etc etc.

Tangwyn- some very dominant dogs at park (where the problem is)- if I don't get the timing right- Grover won't get the food and he will get bitten (Is off lead park) . Dogs follow me cos' I have the treats! But I am taking squashed cooked sausage. Sounds dumb- but how do I use a long lead at the park with lots of dogs? His recall is great without lots of dogs- do I use the line all the time? or just in that situation (I have a long line)

Erny this has definitely crept up again- and it stops here-I am sorting it out once and for all- I want a good dog at the park. I don't know about the e collar- I would stuff up the timing I think-I'd rather pay a pro trainer- then I can learn how to do it with training and build doggy skills.

Sorry guys-this is really bothering me- Tangwyn-this would solve the licking problem if I could call him out of it-you're right.

[Erny]

Erny the driving off bit would work but my only help would be the OH and he loves him too much to care if I leave. What do you mean correct him? smack, drop stay or back on lead and head home? I could adminster quickly- I am a fast runner! I've never really known what do re; correction wise with running off. Like, all you read in books is don't punish for not coming or the dog won't want to come to you etc etc.

It's getting late! I've read and re-read my post a few times and can't find where I said to "correct" (need to identify context so I can explain). Did I say that? Would you quote me my sentence please? In a "re-call" there is a risk that a physical correction that can be paired by the dog to you can result in a reluctant recall, if a recall at all.

I don't know about the e collar- I would stuff up the timing I think-I'd rather pay a pro trainer- then I can learn how to do it with training and build doggy skills.

Don't know how much unneccessary attention you give your dog, but you could try backing it off some. If he values it you might find his attentiveness increases.

[ILFC]

You didn't say that Erny-WS- did. I stuffed up and wrote in the wrong place-sorry . Yes- I am overattentive at home- huge fault! Am trying hard to back off on attention due to his separation anxiety (don't worry-had a good but expensive behaviouralist help us) but have actually regressed (me and OH) and am giving too much attention again. Sometimes he even snatches a treat and takes off again ;) So I would say that we are quite low in his pack order in regards to recalls.

[Tangwyn]

The plot thickens! You will have problems ensuring compliance in one area of the dog's training if you are not clear about where he stands in other areas of his life. Respect is so, so important!

You shouldn't have too much of a problem using the long line at the park with other dogs. How many other dogs are there? If you are able to have a quick word to the owners' of other dogs in the park, let them know what you're working on. They can assist by not letting their dogs mob you when you're trying to reward yours. Perhaps they might like to practise some recall training

With my pup, the correction for ignoring a recall command is a few persistent tugs (not pulls) on the long line. Its like, "Hello, anyone there?" . I then repeat the command (because I now have the dog's attention) and reel him in and reward. I then release him immediately to continue playing.

I'm not sure about the legalities of using an e-collar in WA (they are illegal in NSW) but I wouldn't recommend it for your situation. The dog needs to be appropriately conditioned to the collar and you need to have excellent timing when it comes to administering a correction. You have a soft, intelligent dog that I believe will respond to amish methods of training just fine.

[Erny]

Yes- I am overattentive at home- huge fault! Am trying hard to back off on attention due to his separation anxiety (don't worry-had a good but expensive behaviouralist help us) but have actually regressed (me and OH) and am giving too much attention again. Sometimes he even snatches a treat and takes off again ;) So I would say that we are quite low in his pack order in regards to recalls.

If you are low in his pack order, it will be in relation to everything - whether you recognise evidence or not. And it definately won't be helping any of his separation anxiety!

So get a move on girl and re-establish your heirarchy status. This requires consistency - for your dog's sake. You'll be doing him and yourself a huge favour. In the meantime, he has had opportunity to establish a learnt behaviour ie not recalling, so you will need to take a step or two backwards in training (revert to long line) to re-address that. I am not discounting the possibility of need for the use of a remote trainer under the supervision of a qualified trainer (and one who can also assess temperament suitability), but put everything else in place first and see what results you get from that.

[ILFC]

Yes Tangwyn-plot thickens! Sep anxiety vet believed (research hospital vet) linked to the neurological problems he has (i.e LP)- so is also on drugs to control this area (plus the training). (This has been decided in consultation with behaviouralist and two specialist vets-don't worry) Enry-actually he can't wear a collar anyway because of his LP- he has to wear a harness. So- I will have to leave that one. Yes Tangwyn he is intelligent-learns very quickly-so obviously reinforced this quite quickly. Do you use a long line every time- or should I take it with me and only use it when it is a high stimulus time i.e. lots of dogs there?

Erny-am working on it definitely- we both realised how we have slipped back Our problem is 'loving him too much'-e.g. when he seeks a pat we give it to him-walking past - he looks really cute give him a hug- free affection-not earnt. At the heart of the problem though is we nearly lost him with the LP and realistically at any time his heart can give up because it has to work overly hard or the paralysis could become worse. Sounds like an excuse but I guess that's how we feel and we have to train ourselves and not the dog! We feel that everyday is precious with him. But anyhoo- no excuses - off to practise the recall with the naughty flat coat!

[Working_Setters]

What do you mean correct him? smack, drop stay or back on lead and head home? I could adminster quickly- I am a fast runner! I've never really known what do re; correction wise with running off. Like, all you read in books is don't punish for not coming or the dog won't want to come to you etc etc.

I'm not suggesting you correct your dog for coming, quite the opposite, I'm suggesting you correct your dog for NOT coming. If you call and the dog comes, you can't correct, no matter how many times you call, how long it took the dog to respond or what the dog did on the way back. Once the dog gets to you, he has recalled, and therefore obeyed the command, hence no correction. What I'm suggesting is you call once, a good solid recall so you can be sure the dog heard it, then if the dog doesn't recall, you GO TO the dog and correct. Recall is a command, and like all commands it needs to be obeyed, if not there will be a correction (at least that's how I train).

What constitutes an appropriate correction is impossible for me to say, each dog is different. Some dogs will cower with a stern look or a firm word, others will need a more physical approach. The correction must fit the dog, not the crime.

Your discussion with Erny has unearthed a serious fault in your pack hierarchy, it's going to be hard to get your dog to recall, or do anything else it doesn't feel like doing until you regain the dog's respect. Your praise is a huge card in the training game, and knowing when to play it (and not over playing it) is an important part of training. Making the dog earn the praise is generally the approach I take. I also would never tolerate a dog snatching a treat and running off with it.

I'm sure many consider my training methods out dated and simplistic, but to me they are effective and have stood the test of time. Never give a command you can not, or are not prepared to enforce. Start exercises simply and add distractions and complexity. Set the dog up for success and praise when success is achieved. Correct only when you are sure the dog understands the command and is wilfully ignoring it. So you teach (no corrections), then you proof (corrections when required). I correct firmly, I prefer to correct firmly and infrequently, rather than lightly and continually.

Maybe back to some basics like TOT and NILIF to regain some respect?

Edited March 23, 2007 by Working_Setters

[ILFC]

Yes-Ws I totally agree-serious faults-I am reading up on TOT (pinned post). Yes I agree with corection and i will go to him and I can catch him too. The snatch of the treat was when he was a pup but it is very naughty and he would probably do the same given a chance. Yes-I agree about a serious correction rather than a series of little ones and if we were a bit stricter when he was little-he would have a good consistent recall now. What I don't understand is how he can be great at agillity and ob. training and then crap at the park with lots of dogs. There's lots of feral dogs there but it is the only off leash park with good space. It is not fenced. He is our first dog so I guess you are bound to have mistakes. We just never wanted to go the too harsh path- so I guess somewhere along the line- Grover has seen himself as an equal. I agree with the posts and have been practising.

If I took him on a long line- do I do it everytime or only at high stimulus times?

[Erny]

If I took him on a long line- do I do it everytime or only at high stimulus times?

Without prescribing to the form of corrections nor, in the absence of seeing you and your dog work in the recall exercise, as to the moment of correction, remember that consistency is one of the major keys in training. This counts whether or not you are in high, low or zilch distraction areas.

[Griffo]

You will get much great advice on here about training a recall but my advice to you is DO NOT let your dog off lead outside a fenced area until his recall is 100%. Ever. Ever.

Get yourself a long roap or a long lead and use that.

[ILFC]

I haven't been doing it every time as he likes to get a really good run- and if I know it is a quiet time at the park no problems, or down the river/beach. I haven't worried as I know when he's going to do it- I don't like it-but I managed it. It is hard to play with others on a long line and he is an only dog. Anyhoo-long lead here I come.

[Erny]

Ops! Sorry. I thought you were asking about whether your corrections should be consistent. I now think you were talking about the use of a long-line?

Use the long-line at any and all times you are not certain you will achieve a re-call on command and/or when you recognise the possibility of the environment changing from one where you would, to one where you wouldn't. Even then, given his learnt behaviour, I'd be inclined to take a step backwards and return to long-line for practice work in environments when a recall is likely. This will grant you "error-less training" and you can work on pepping up reward for compliance.

What I don't understand is how he can be great at agillity and ob. training and then crap at the park with lots of dogs.

Seems to me that (a) you may not have generalised his training to this environment and proofed under this level of distraction; (b) that your leadership and hence his respect for your right to govern has dropped; and © that he has self-reinforced for non-compliance (so you now have learnt behaviour to deal with as well).

Our problem is 'loving him too much'-e.g. when he seeks a pat we give it to him-walking past - he looks really cute give him a hug- free affection-not earnt. At the heart of the problem though is we nearly lost him with the LP and realistically at any time his heart can give up because it has to work overly hard or the paralysis could become worse. Sounds like an excuse but I guess that's how we feel ...

This is not intended as a harp, nor a criticism, ILFC. I'm hoping my words will actually help you feel better about yourselves if you were to heighten your heirarchy status. Being a leader is not about being hard (or harder). It's not about being stern. You are still free to love your guy as much as you want - but it just needs to be done on your terms rather than his. (Eg. NILIF etc.) It sounds as though the behaviourist you had out gave you some sound advice. Don't waste your money nor simultaneously do any dis-favours to your dog. Remind yourself that what you would be doing by exhibiting leadership attributes is far more selfless than not doing them to feed your heart's needs. If it helps, I know what you mean. My girl (since passed) was ill for quite some time and especially in the latter months when I knew time was short, I wanted to give her the world - and certainly anything of me. I indulged myself with the usual cuddles/pats and spent as much time with her as I could, but I maintained leadership to the end as otherwise her stress levels would be increased and I had to remind myself that would hardly be a gift that I'd want to give her. Even asking for a shake paw or some small trick your dog can do easily, before attention etc. can make a difference. My girl used to act all chuffed when I asked her to do something before me giving something to her. Moreso than if I gave her something without asking for something first. Provided leadership is well and truley in place and has been for some time, I find little harm in the occasional passing pat (ie "freeby"), although I wouldn't advise this whilst trying to re-establish leadership nor for a while after.

Edited March 23, 2007 by Erny

[ILFC]

Yes Erny- I totally agree- we have been saying to ourselves- we need to get back to what we were taught- but not acting on it. I took him tonight at a time when I thought that there would be a low stimulus time and he ran off- so it stops now! I'm using the long line at the park every time. I think I have generalised his training as I have a special small park or at home that I train him at (no off lead dogs). He has never really listened at the "fun" parks, looking back. I don't take it as criticism at all-this is valuable advice. We are dog novices-so all advice is helpful and this only reinforces what our behaviouralist says too- she also said we have to train ourselves. It only upsets me as i am trying hard but I feel that lack of knowledge stops me (i.e. recognising my own behaviour for what it is). I have found this forum to be excellent-as these posts are awesome and i will be rereading as needed. Where I live (and probably everywhere) every random person is an expert. This advice from yourself, Working Setter and Tangwyn makes sense and is easy to apply. I'm looking forward to the dog that I know he can be-and I'm working hard to achieve that. Sometimes you just get caught up in (especially if you have never had a dog before and if you only have one) in seeing them as a fur child not a dog. Very easy to do and I don't know how society has shifted from "dog outside-dog is a dog" into "our dog is a fur person" because our situation (loving too much) is common (according to our trainer and the general public that I see). Thanks heaps-will be refering to the posts often.