Motivation

[leopuppy04]

Ahh now I see what you mean Vickie! It happened to me in training this week - we went over a jump at a weird angle - I told Leo to turn - turn he did but I forgot to call him off the next jump and I was pointing all systems go to that exact jump!!! You couldn't really get mad at him for that!

We are in the middle of training & someone comes over to chat or the phone rings...do we attend to our dogs, complete the behaviour & reward or do we get distracted?

Is it OK sometimes for our dogs to jump on us but not other times? How do they know the difference?

We are walking along & they fall into a perfect heeling pattern, do we notice, stop & reward? or not notice b/c we didn't ask for it?

The list is endless, I think dogs are simple creatures & we are complex. We communicate so much to them without realising it & it is often not the right communication & I think we are often imacting their motivation without even realising it.

Yes, that is interesting and I have thought about it before - I don't know what I do - is it confusing to sometimes reward and other times not? If we ignore it are we missing a perfect opportunity to reward.... ahh - whoever said training wasn't complicated

Cosmolo:

I do the same - have a no-reward marker if the dog did something wrong - If he does it wrong again, then clearly there is something wrong with what i'm asking him to do - has he done it before, what am I telling him to do etc,etc.

Yes I agree with what you are saying - I certianly don't reward for every sit etc..... but I think that a dog needs to be paid one way or another (of course depending on the exercise), particularly in a complex task or something like a trial - Some just walk out of the ring and fail to reward their dog.... then they wonder about why the dog flattens off. I think that with complex tasks particularly, the motivation should always be there - same with the basic stuff - we may reward 1 out of 50, but I still think we need to reward them!

[Vickie]

You raise an interesting point about 'motivation'..... which gives me another question to ask.... SHOULD we be reducing the level or rewards???? I don't think we should - we should reduce predictability and we should ask for more to get that one reward, but IMO the dog should ALWAYS be paid for good work and ALWAYS have something to work for - I hate seeing trainers who never reward their dog aside from a simple "good dog" because the dog knows it and therefore doesn't need the full-on rewards anymore. Do you see a lot of this also? I mean, the dog has to be 'paid' after all - sure vary what they are being paid with, but not take out the rewards.... it amazes me how many people make this mistake. I was actually told when I started training Leo that since he knows it, he shouldn't be rewarded anymore...... hmmm.....

I'm often in 2 minds about this. In theory, the dog should always be rewarded, whether every time or on a variable schedule.

But...I also know that the 3 most motivated dogs I know work for no external/tangible reward. I think the reason for this is the consistency of their trainers & the relationship they have built with their dogs and to a big extent the breeding of the dog.

It goes back to what I was trying to say earlier. If every dog started with a score of 100 for motivation & gained a point every time we rewarded & lost one every time we confused them, I think most dogs scores would reduce over time. The 3 dogs mentioned above belong to handlers who very rarely confuse their dogs...they have simple rules & are amazingly consistent about what receives praise & what doesn't. It is not something that most of are able to do, but I think it certainly deserves some investigation.

I think it is also different when you are doing activities that the dog finds more rewarding than anything you can offer. Trim is completely & utterly tennis ball obsessed, but when she is on sheep I doubt she would even glance at a ball.

I know I have said this before, but I was told at a sheep clinic by a very experienced trainer "QUIT praising that dog! You are irritating the hell out of her!" LOL, I was taken aback, but I now understand what he was getting at. My praise was an interruption of her work, it was like she was focussed, then I said something meaningless, she rolled her eyes at me..."can you just shut up, I'm trying to work here". I see a little bit of that with her agility as well. Sometimes it is appropriate to stop & reward & sometimes it is not & would be more of an irritation than a reward.

Edited April 12, 2007 by Vickie

[ness]

So Vickie what do you do in a situation like Cosmolo suggested - a dog popping weavers. I just ran back and did them again and then rewarded her when she completed them (we had a similar situation happen last night).

Interestingly on the topic of motivation - I ran a friends kelpie last night who was running ok for the handler but nothing special. This dog is getting on in age and has all his masters titles. Anyway we ran a blinder of a round. Then I went and got my girl back and ran her immediately after. Before when I ran her she was a bit flat (still in recovery mode from the weekend) but when I tried after running this other dog she certainly perked up a lot and ran quite a nice round herself.

Edited April 12, 2007 by ness

[leopuppy04]

Ness - who invited you into this thread - stalking me again!!!

I notice the same thin g- If Leo is flat and I run Kinta first (in training) he is all systems go when I bring him out - even if I just bring Kinta and not work her - he knows the competition is there

[ness]

Yep I am stalking you again .

Hey I discovered a couple of other things last night. One being I can toss her ball as a reward and she will drive after it but she still expects a treat when she returns it and secondly she is slowly improving on her tugging out at agility.

She is getting so good at chilling in her crate with the door open until I release her .

Edited April 12, 2007 by ness

[Vickie]

So Vickie what do you do in a situation like Cosmolo suggested - a dog popping weavers. I just ran back and did them again and then rewarded her when she completed them (we had a similar situation happen last night).

This is a pretty big question really. As a one off, I would do exactly what you did. But I would analyse the problem if it reoccurred. If a dog is popping out in the middle of weavers, there is an issue & I would be concerned about it.

There are a few possible issues with weavers: not making entries, hitting the 1st gap but not the 2nd, popping out in the middle, pulling out on the last 2. All are different issues for different reasons & would require something different to fix them. JMO.

[ness]

Sorry I love asking loaded questions .

We had two different ones but they were both handler fault. First time she popped at pole 10 (and she does that on the rare occasion) I think I pulled her out. But did fine when I put her through again.

The other instance was a missed entry and again it was handler fault because I hadn't shaped her approach so she was wide enough to take the first pole. Again I took her back to the obstacle prior (which happened to be the dogwalk) then sent her again.

Edited April 12, 2007 by ness

[Vickie]

We had two different ones but they were both handler fault. First time she popped at pole 10 (and she does that on the rare occasion) I think I pulled her out. But did fine when I put her through again.

The other instance was a missed entry and again it was handler fault because I hadn't shaped her approach so she was wide enough to take the first pole. Again I took her back to the obstacle prior (which happened to be the dogwalk) then sent her again.

So now...the big question is...not how you dealt with them at the time ...but what are you going to do to fix both these issues so they don't happen again next time you are on course??? How are you going to make sure that she doesn't need you to keep her in or help her get in?

[ness]

Oh yes that question . Entries she never misses at trials but the popping at 10 well yep that is a problem. Case in point second agility round the other weekend. First one she completed them nicely second time she popped. I MUST not try and get ahead of myself when we get to pole 10 and not just expect she will do it and add in another weaving command.

<Now to just remember to do that>

ETA. Just to add insult to injury we were playing around with startline stays at training as well. The course had a lovely straight 4 bar lead out. No matter how hard we tried Ness wouldn't break her startline stay at all. We threw toys, food you name it, had pretend judges calling out are you ready in a loud voice - emphasising the ready. Nothing she wouldn't budge till I gave her her release command. Whats the bet she won't hold on at the trial on Sunday. Time to kill I think LOL.

Edited April 12, 2007 by ness

[Vickie]

Oh yes that question . Entries she never misses at trials but the popping at 10 well yep that is a problem. Case in point second agility round the other weekend. First one she completed them nicely second time she popped. I MUST not try and get ahead of myself when we get to pole 10 and not just expect she will do it and add in another weaving command.

LOL, where is the buzzer for wrong answer

Or you could train every day at home, 3 times a day, using guides or offset poles to be able to run past her whenever you want or need to so that next time you go to a trial you don't even have to think about it, b/c you know it is no longer an issue for you or her.

ETA. Just to add insult to injury we were playing around with startline stays at training as well. The course had a lovely straight 4 bar lead out. No matter how hard we tried Ness wouldn't break her startline stay at all. We threw toys, food you name it, had pretend judges calling out are you ready in a loud voice - emphasising the ready. Nothing she wouldn't budge till I gave her her release command. Whats the bet she won't hold on at the trial on Sunday. Time to kill I think LOL.

Sounds good, I hope you try it on Sunday. It will just be another thing you don't have to worry about when you have fixed it.

Sorry everyone I know this might seem off topic...but really it is part of motivation. When we go into the ring with "issues" we are stressed & so is the dog and that can only decrease motivation. Masters courses are hard enough without having the stress of babysitting things you haven't fixed in training.

Edited April 12, 2007 by Vickie

[ness]

True I could train it to. Maybe when I have a set of weavers - got my jumps now for some weavers .

I'll try it but I can't guarantee she will stay put. We shall see I can usually tell in the first 2-3 seconds when I go to remove her lead whether she will stay or not. Mostly its a not. On a technicality point of view from somebody who trials if I remove her lead and then ask her to set up is that ok? or do you have to have them sitting or standing and then remove the lead and hand it to the steward. I just wondered if I would get better control over the start if I took her lead off earlier rather than later. Means if she goes to start early I haven't set her up yet so I can get her switched on to me. So if I took her lead off further back and walked her to her set up point off-lead.

ETA. Yep Masters courses are god dam difficult enough as it is and starting behind the eightball when she decides to break at the start is costing us valuable time (time I need so we have a hope of qualifying)

Edited April 12, 2007 by ness

[Vickie]

I know LP kicked us out but since the thread is dying anyway...I'm going to answer

You should do in a trial whatever works in training (within the rules)...otherwise you are just adding to the differences between the 2.

As far as I am aware the rules are:

Once YOU cross the start line, you may not return to your dog

Once the DOG crosses the startline, the clock starts & she is in play

I always remove Trim's lead as we enter the ring, same as I do in training. I set her up without the lead, take my position & release her.

My honest opinion is that whilever you let a dog break the startline in a trial & continue the course you will never have a reliable startline in a trial. If you want it...(maybe after the Nationals)...you will have to be prepared to blow a few runs to get it.

[ness]

Hey Vickie,

Thanks I may try removing her lead earlier - she is after all an obedience dog first and foremost so control off lead isn't a huge issue.

As for breaking at a trial - since I don't ask for a stay/wait she isn't really breaking which I guess is the only thing I have in my favour. She did once and now I don't even ask I just have a routine where I do take my hand off her collar and then just run. I have occasionally (when I can see she is relaxed at the startline when I place my hand on her collar) asked for a small lead out but only when I know she is going to be successful and its usually later on in the day after she has already had a few rounds.

Somebody else did suggest blowing runs as a solution problem being she isn't a super high drive dog and there was a risk that trying this method would shut her down. We both agreed that if a low drive dog did that we should savour it. It was great for a while now its frustrating.

She honestly doesn't run faster with a lead out then she does running with me I guess its just catching me a bit unawares now because you think she will start slower and for some reason decides to have a burst of speed.

Thanks again.

[LC fraai]

When Cheirah gets distracted I just clap or whistle. A tiny bit of treat or a bit of normal dog food or a "good girl" with a pat is enough to reward. The reward probably is food rather than a pat when it's harder to consentrate away from distractions.