Griffo

Rachelle, eg 1: you have a female dog - which you know very well, but it is very dog aggressive. The level of dog aggression is intense. Dog is well socialised, great with people, confident and not fear aggressive. has no prey drive. Pack orientated. eg 2: You own a male dog - your previous dogs have been GSDs and Dobes - you are a competent dog handler but the dog is exhibiting aggression towards your famiy (partner and children) who the dog has grown up with. Has no prey drive, pack orientated. Does it matter what breed of dog the above are? So you know what the dogs like and don't like - what if you are missing something? what if what you 'know' about your dog is wrong. Most breed issues are because people incorrectly 'know' their dog and what it values. How do you go about training a dog when your fundamental understanding of what and why your dog is, is wrong? Is the dog misbehaving by not dropping or sitting? How soon should you expect a response to your command? To fix the problems? It does not matter what breed the dog is, except to establish how big a threat the dog's aggression is. There will be WAY more information you'd get from seeing a dog than what you have mentioned in your little (very little) "case examples", and many different answers you could get from the little info you have given. You can nog get answers to those questions over a forum, although, you can get many opinions and "maybes" for sure. The dog may be disobeying for several reasons, but i am telling you now, it is not because it has spots, fluffy hair, big feet, a deep chest or whatever else. Yes, it might have something to do with having more of a one trait than another, and this might even be something prevalent in it's breed (it might be something unheard of in the breed too), however, without knowing a single thing about the breed, you can still fix the problem. The fundamental drives & needs of all dogs are the same, just in varying degrees. The thing is, if you have a problem you have tried to fix, and you cant, then is when you need a professional, because you must be missing something. Is it because the dog is Y breed and this behaviour should just be accepted? Hell no. Not in my opinion anyway. I would never settle for that as an answer because i believe it is a cop out and a person's way of justifying their dog's bad behaviour, when, actually, there could be several reasons why your dog is not sitting and not one has to do with the dog's breed; -handler technique -training methods -dog's individual drives -dog's individual motivations -pack problems Just to name a few.

So you believe that it's possible to train a CAO using the same methods as a pug? Or a dobe with the same methods as a lab? A mastiff the same as a KCS? Before you answer that from a broad view I think that you can, afterall you just want them to sit and all dogs sit in the same way. But I think that the breed definitely needs to be taken into consideration as temperament vary vastly between breeds and be very significant so the finer details such as rewards and training tools must vary depending on the breed and/or dog. It depends on the dog's temperament. Not the dog's breed. You wouldnt train 2 pugs with different drives the same, you wouldnt train 2 CAOs with different drives the same (what is with these CAOs people? Do you think they are a super breed of dog or something LOL?) The vast differences you are talking about occurs between dogs WITHIN the SAME breed. I am saying that you would train a dog dependent on it's likes, dislikes, drives, not because it is a pug or a BC. I dont think i can be any clearer than that. And i am about tired of repeating myself. *yawn* NO, no, no, doing that to a soft DOG, not BREED, is a bad idea. There are soft dogs in EVERY breed. To say that all of Y breed will be soft because they are Y breed is absurd. You will get a mix of hard and soft and in between and many other combos within the same breed. The only reasons im interested in the breed is to determine whether the dog can do much damage (a JR vs a GSD) & for interest sake, apart from that there is no reason I personally am interested in the breed.

I think we should ask Troy to close the training section, way to much advcie here Now i think that's a little extreme.

And I responded, saying your assertion was incorrect and that when it came to ASD and CAO - understanding them as a breed is the first step to successfully training them. Hence, why breed advice was/is relevant This is where i disagree, i believe the first step in training any dog is finding out their drives, what they like and what they don't like. I think this applies to any dog of any breed. If you can recognise these things then knowing the breed is not relevant. Well thats what i believe anyway. However that said i do appreciate your opinion and understand what you are saying.

It can be. Some dogs are notoriously difficult to house train, some make life very tough when you're trying to teach them to sit. Some dogs will learn "sit" with a heap of praise, some need more motivation (ie. food, toy reward) and some just need a good ol' correction to really get the point through that sit means sit. Sometimes there's a behavioural reason why a dog won't obey, sometimes a medical. No-one is going to be able to accurately determine that over the internet though. Also we all know there are generalisations about the temperament of every breed and although a lot of dogs vary, the basic temperaments are generally similar from breed to breed. So I do think that even with a simple sit or heel that breed comes into it, behaviour certainly does. So where do you draw the line? Should people just stop giving any advice so the next person who asks how to get their dog to heel is immediately told to see a behaviouralist? I don't see the harm in providing general advice and training tips. I also don't think that giving minor behavioural advice is a big problem as long as it's made clear that a behaviouralist would be the best person to seek out. I've learnt an enormous amount about dog training and behaviour from forums and websites alone and if people were to stop posting this information for fear of leading others astray I think it would be a real shame as it's such a valuable way to learn about many different areas of dog behaviour and training. Just look at Leerburg.com and flyingdogpress as examples...ooooodles of behaviour and training information there and I don't think it's harmful at all to have it around. I absolutely agree with most of what you have written here. I think that advice has a place on this forum, but as the thread was about the dangers of giving advice on a forum, well yes there are dangers. Should we stop giving advice? Absoltely not. Should we be careful and understand that the dangers do exist? Absolutely Should we INFORM the OP that there are dangers in giving advice over a forum? YES! Should we stress that a professional is the best place to seek advice for things which DO need behavioral work?... well i think we should. I think there is a line where the advice is safe and is not safe to give. I think there are also things you can to do to cover your bum when giving the advice like urging them to go to a class, trainer, behaviourist, whatever. However, I dont think training is breed specific.

I guess I took the use of this emoticon wrong when placed next to the breed of the dog. My appolgies, and thank you for clarifying. You can assume what you like. We both know that PP is a specialist field and has nothing to do with advice on behaviour & training problems in dogs on this forum. You really do like to split hairs dont you? And must have way too much time on your hands to go sifting thru all that...

FYI bloat isnt breed specific... Well actually it is more prevalent in certain breeds, as you know, as are certain drives etc. considering you have dobes, i should think you'd know that. I dont belive any part is breed specific! It wasnt me that evolved the thread into the breed specific training, I was trying to stay on topic, just like you asked So you believe that this is the type of advice has a place on the forums? If yes than great, we agree Books are written information, just like advice on the forums. Books are written by professionals and not so very professionals, just like advice on forums is. but interesting comment on your part I believe that teaching a dog to sit, carte training, house training is not breed specific, i believe that is what i said? The rest you can make assumptions about the rest till the cows come home. IMO the only place for books is to become a more informed person, take what you want and leave what you want, we are talking about giving ADVICE on forums. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree...

That's because you are not familar with certain lines of Anatolian and Central Asian. There are some common 'unwanted behaviours' that are not going to be untrained out of them. Problems arise because people think they can. A dog is a dog is a dog. All dogs have drives. All dogs want to be comfortable. The problem comes down to a handler/training issue, not a breed issue. Which is a dog's drives, not their breed. A prey high drive dog can appear regardless of breed. A low drive dog can appear regardless of breed. It would be silly to give a prey drive program to someone with a BC just because it is a BC... when their particular dog might have absolutely no prey drive or high rank drive which needs to be dealt with first. Whatever terminology you want to use: mindset, outlook, psyche, drives - this is breed related. Breed advice does not equate to dispensing a 'drive program' based on breed alone, but it does mean knowing what drives are at play, and probable reasoning/outcomes of the situation. I disagree with you. You don't know the drives that are at play from a description on a forum just because you have had experience with that breed. You can err that it can more likely be this or that, but to make an accurate diagnosis you need to SEE the dog. The things you have to worry about is not the information you are given, but the information you haven't been given, key signs that the owner has missed because they are not trained to look for it. As i said, you could be right, but there is a chance you could be wrong, to me it is not a worthwhile chance to take. Doesnt mean you cant do it. I just think it is dangerous and it is a good idea to cover your bum when giving the advice. Okay this is where i am having a problem, this part is a bit dangerous IMO...just because i own a GSD it does not make me a GSD trainer/behaviorist. The problem with that mindset (to me) is if someone comes to me abuout their GSD, I will have a clouded view because of my preconceived ideas about what a GSD should/should not be. Hence my advice coulld also be clouded. I'd imagine that someone offering breed advice would have owned more than one of their said breed, and have a pretty good grasp of the breed population in Australia, temperaments of contributing dogs, and experience handling them at and from different ages. What you see as a "clouded view" I regard as an OVERVIEW. I absolutely disagree with that. I know people who have owned several dogs of the same breed yet they now nothing about the breed population in Au, the temperaments of contributing dogs, and maybe they have raised them, but it doesnt mean they have done it in the best way. I believe that an "overview" is not good enough information to work with. Maybe YOU have this knowledge, but a regular person asking a question usually doesn't have this knowledge. I have owned several GSDs, i knew none of that information till very recently. Yep and if someone had experience in a spectrum of causes for the above described behaviour, they'd be aware of the contributing possibilites and the myriad of ways each drive related owner/dog issue could manifest. Someone offering breed adivce on BCs would be well aware that either scenario could be a possibilty, so no big problems. No, that is not true. I have read plenty of advice given in this forum... many times people jump to one conclusion because of their past experience. Not long ago, i would have done the same thing. And yes there ARE big problems in giving training advice over a forum to a person with a fear aggressive dog or a rank aggressive dog. Huge problems. You can make the dog worse, you can put yourself and others in danger, or you might hit the jackpot and get it right. Basic advice like "work on leadership, implement NILF, TOT " etc is pretty safe. Making a call on what you think the problem might be is fine too. Actually going ahead and saying... i think the problem is Y and you need to do Z to fix it - that is dangerous.

Just for you Myszka, this is where the breed specific advice came into the thread..... :rolleyes: I don't understand why you'd be more likely to offer advice about your breed of choice, as temperament has squat to do with a dogs breed. Of course you can offer advice on issues like grooming and feeding etc, but it is no safer offering behavioural advice for a breed you know vs one you dont. Temperament is not breed specific.

Can you expand on the breed specific advice on lets say feeding? For example how to feed to avoid breed specific health problems like bloat. Thread evolved... :rolleyes: Okay i am about to correct you because you're wrong, i was concerned because the fellow was winging PP. I dont believe any of my comments pointed towards the breed. Except that they might end up on the BSL list after he'd finished with them. How about we stay on topic hey? You are still talking about behavioural issues, PF has pointed this out to you before. several people here belive that you can give general advice to anyone about with any breed of a dog on how to teach the dog to sit using a lure, how to crate train the dog or how to house train a puppy. Are you of a different opinon? No I am saying that a dog's drives, training & behaviour go hand in hand, regardless of what I am commenting on, threads tend to evolve. So lets not waste our time on silly details like who has pointed out what. You'd be silly to take training as a unity when the dog may have a series of other problems which may interfere. When giving advice on a forum about training, behaviour, whatever, this needs to be considered. No, once again, what i am saying is that things like crate training are NOT breed specific, why would you need breed specific advice? Oh except for the size of the crate you might need. Things like teaching a dog to sit are NOT breed specific, house training is NOT breed specific. What part of it do you believe is breed specific? whats your opinion about training books? Seeing as you are so insistent about staying on topic...ie TRAINING, my opinions of books is irrelevant. I am not interested in splitting hairs on yet another topic. ETA: Actually i believe what i said is it can be dangerous and people need to be careful giving and accepting the advice.

yes they can apply to any breed but because man has selectively bred traits which are desirable for certain conditions, work or lifestyle those dogs carry inherited traits which may and often can be breed specific. When these traits are not met by the owner then they can develop into breed specific problems such as chase, nipping, digging, pulling, following a scent, etc etc. All of the symptoms you have mentioned occur from a dog's drives. Nowhere have i said that traits are not more prevalent in some breeds, of course some traits have a higher occurrence depending on breed. However, the same modification/training programs apply regardless of breed, they are, however, dependent on the dog's temperament and drives. I can not see an instance where a training/behaviour program should implemented because of the dog's breed rather than their temperament/drives. You dont look at a JackR and immediately say that the root of it's problems is high prey drive. You can maybe take that into consideration when assessing, even then, if you know what your doing then you wont need to because you will see it with your own two eyes. I am surprised that some people are are happy to admit that training certain BREEDS out of or into behaviours is like "pushing s*** uphill"...rather than realising that you can use the drives causing the behaviours to your advantage... Which is a dog's drives, not their breed. A prey high drive dog can appear regardless of breed. A low drive dog can appear regardless of breed. It would be silly to give a prey drive program to someone with a BC just because it is a BC... when their particular dog might have absolutely no prey drive or high rank drive which needs to be dealt with first. Okay this is where i am having a problem, this part is a bit dangerous IMO...just because i own a GSD it does not make me a GSD trainer/behaviorist. The problem with that mindset (to me) is if someone comes to me abuout their GSD, I will have a clouded view because of my preconceived ideas about what a GSD should/should not be. Hence my advice coulld also be clouded. Lets take the behaviour of nipping on ankles with a BC - a common problem for this breed.... Someone who has had a high prey drive BC would be leaning towards it being a "herding" instinct/ prey drive. While someone who has had a high rank drive BC would be leaning towards it being a "correction" from the dog It could be either one of the above or neither. If it is a rank problem and the person starts prey work with the dog then there could be big problems.

i still disagree with that tho. Jumping to conclusions over a forum because you have experience with the same breed is not a clever thing to do, ever. if we were to take that view further that would mean that its not a good idea to buy a book on dog training, or a DVD. And the general advice that is often provided on the forums is non breed non temperament specific most of the time. Prime example is my thread about teaching my dog to pull on lead, where ever helpfull PF has given me a one sentence advice. You can do what you like with it, but what we are talking about is giving advice on forums, we are not talking about tv, dvds etc. I also have views on those, but they are off topic. People need to be very careful wen giving advice on forums. Problems can be made worse, or sometimes we get lucky and they get better. I dont think it is a good enough gamble. BTW i am guilty of giving advice, dont get me wrong, but do i think it is all together a brilliant idea? no i dont, in recent times, i always try to cover my bum when i do give advice. The only thing that i think breed specific advice is useful for is; grooming, feeding and breeding. Other than that all training and behaviour problems can apply to any breed - unless it is something to do with a dog's physical structure effecting training etc. (incase anyone feels the need to split hairs over this...)

You are still talking behaviour, not training. Training, behaviour, temperament, drives go hand in hand. You would be silly to separate the two. Are you saying that dogs of differing drive and temperament cannot be taught behaviours using the same basic method eg. lure and reward? Is toilet training drive dependent? I dont believe i said that anywhere, i believe i said "Training, behaviour, temperament, drives go hand in hand. You would be silly to separate the two." Is toilet training breed specific?

You are still talking behaviour, not training. Training, behaviour, temperament, drives go hand in hand. You would be silly to separate the two.

correction should come immediately, the idea should be for the dog to beat the correction. Thats how fast the correction should be. I know that, I was questioning people saying its nr1. yea and i was answering it for you.

no one can argue with that i still disagree with that tho. Some traits might be prevalent but that will also cause people owning that breed & giving advice to assume that it is most likely a dominance issue because it is breed Z, a fear issue because it is breed Y. etc etc. That is still very dangerous. Jumping to conclusions over a forum because you have experience with the same breed is not a clever thing to do, ever.

I don't understand why you'd be more likely to offer advice about your breed of choice, as temperament has squat to do with a dogs breed. Of course you can offer advice on issues like grooming and feeding etc, but it is no safer offering behavioural advice for a breed you know vs one you dont. Temperament is not breed specific.

Very dangerous to give advice on a forum. For a start you can not see the dog to read it's body language which is probably the most vital part of diagnosis. You also can not see the owner and how they are interacting with the dog which is equally important. On forums you will find that the posters tend to post what they have noticed/seen, but the problem is, 99% of the time, they have missed so much... or added in misleading information (usually unintentionally) an example... You might have a highly rank dog which readers have misdiagnosed as a fear aggressive dog or a high prey dog etc, they give a solution in par with what they have read, which could possibly tip the rank aggressive dog over the edge and cause a very dangerous situation. Best and safest advice anyone can give is to see a professional behaviorist.

correction should come immediately, the idea should be for the dog to beat the correction. Thats how fast the correction should be.

i'd say no. 3 say the command, correct, say the command then correct again until the dog complies. If the dog complies too slowly then they still get a correction. Should become a race between dog and correction so the dog sits faster etc trying to beat the correction.

The number of people that come to the obedience club I instruct at with stuffed up dogs that have only been trained to sit is enormous.......... Don't worry I have wrapped my dog in bubble wrap placed him in his cage (which is bubble wrapped too), and when he is let out for exercise I will hire a seeing eye dog to lead him around by the harness (can you teach me how to get my dog to hold the harness, I'm thinking duct tape). He will be fed a liquid diet through a tube so he won't choke on a bone, and water will be intravenous of course in case a bee lands in it and he get's stung in the throat. roflmao

He wrote like a pro because he is a pro. As we said, it is a specialist area.

Ducky you have shocked me, i am very happy you have decided to listen to reason, and actually admit to it. There are not many people who'd be so brave, so good on you. Good luck with your boy and hopefully we'll be hearing more about him around the forum in the future!!

Ducky, we are not going to give you the bullets for the massacre you want to go on. No one who wants a clear conscious will answer your original question. You did not get the response you wanted to hear and now you are chucking a tantrum. Everyone else who has tried & failed to train their dogs using books must have very low comprehension and reading skills because apparently you are finding it quite simple to train your ( ) Pointer ( :D ) in PP, how very clever you must be.......while the rest of the world forks out money on professionals, you are clever enough to just read a book. If only we could all be so intelligent, imagine the money we'd save.... I am predicting that Pointers may be the next target of BSL.....

this person is just unbelievable. really really unbelievable. poor poor poor dog.