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Thanks for your thoughts Pinnacle, got me thinking. I started to answer, but realised that my answer would depend on what your definition of a training tool is. If one dog can train another through body language, is body language a training tool? Can body language be misused in an abusive fashion? I think it can. But then, that would also be dependant on your definition of abuse. Another thing to consider I guess is that there is the 5 minute education (where we are talking about educating dog owners) and there is the 20+ year education that some of the members here have. No matter what issues some people are having with their dogs, they will only ever be interested in the 5 minute education because the dog isn't that high on their list of priorities. ETA: Another thought....I see people who have absolutely no coordination...they can barely walk around without tripping over. I see people who are off with the fairies, they just cannot focus on the dog...they are chatting away and socialising. There is no question that they love their dogs, but their dogs are uncontrollable because their timing sucks. All the knowledge about dogs in the world isn't going to help some of these people. Sometimes the dogs issues stem from problems that are inherent to the nature of the owner that may not be able to be changed. Its the diversity of characteristics between both dogs and their handlers that make a variety of tools necessary if we really want to improve things for dogs and their bond with their owners.

Great post Am. Different tools have their different strengths and weaknesses. Failure to consider the use of a tool because of the potentiality of misuse would be kind of like a mechanic who says "I never use screw drivers because they are useless at undoing bolts and I know a bloke that spent hours trying to get a bolt undone with a screw driver and he ended up damaging the bolt" I think that trainers sometimes develop a preference for a tool or method, and then try to apply that tool or method to every single situation. This is like the another mechanic developing a preferance for screw drivers so he doesn't carry any other tool in his tool box. Both mechanics are going to come across things that they won't be able to fix. Even if they do fix some things, the results will not be as good as if they had used the right tool for the right job. But they may fool themselves into believing that they can fix everything with their limited tool box and therefore they may not see that there could be a better way. On the other hand some tools in a mechanics tool box need a greater degree of expertise in order to get the best use out of them....doesn't mean that the backyard mechanic can't get his hands on them and do a botchy job on someones car. Having said that, I don't believe that the e-collar should be freely available...I think that it should only be available through and under the guidance of professionals. But I also feel the same should be true with prong collars, check chains and haltis. The problem, as I see it, is that if somebody comes from a background of using a high degree of force/compulsion/punishment and they purchase a tool where that is really not necessary without training and guidance they still try to use that tool based on their own methods and belief systems. That is the real issue...not the tool. The words in bold above have been changed by me...not to pick on you LL nor deride your experience which I have developed some respect for....mainly to show where I'm coming from. Your quote could still ring true with my changes.

Hey DT, Why not hang around and do the PPS classes, get some experience that you can take into your own business before you leave? Might be a pain in the butt in the short term, but there is some benefit in it for you....then you can really thumb your nose at the b1tches before you go. You can also be developing contacts and good impressions about yourself that could be a benefit to your business later...... Keep your eyes on your goals :rolleyes: Ask yourself, why are you studying to be a dog trainer/behaviourist? Keeping your eyes on your goals might just give you the confidence to go ahead despite the obstacles that are in your way. I understand that you are feeling anxious about it all right now, but there is something you can do about that. A wise person once told me that "Anxiety is the price you pay for the unprepared mind and mouth". So try to identify what it is that is causing you grief and do what you need to do to prepare your mind and mouth to deal with it in a way that you feel confident about. You can do it! I think I'd almost kill for the opportunity you have at the moment. Sometimes opportunities come dressed in disguise. Oh, and I had another idea for a PPS topic....crate training.

I believe that you would be covered by your employers insurance....this is a duty that they have requested that you undertake. To be sure, put your program together with a cover note stating that this is the program that you've done up at their request and get them to sign off on it. If there is something that arises during the class that you are at all unsure of...put a stop to the activity. Nobody is going to hold it against you if you state that you are unsure and would rather protect the puppies until you can get further advice....this is the mark of a professional...don't be afraid to use it. The same goes for any questions that you are asked when you are unsure of the answer. You say that you don't want to give misinformation or make mistakes....the bottom line is that you don't have to. You don't have to be a know it all...you are free to state your level of experience to the clients and let them know up front that if there is something that you are unsure of you are going to take the time to check with somebody more experienced. Your clients will appreciate that honesty from you and they will appreciate that you care to check for the best possible out come for their puppies. By your description, it seems that the last PPS facilitator had less experience/knowledge than you. This combined with the fact that you feel unsure tells me that you wish to do a good job. That is a good thing. If you let it, the unsureness will keep you honest and striving to do the best/right thing by both the puppies and their owners. Finally, speak to your boss and see if you can get some contact details of some of the previous PPS clients and give them a call. Ask them what they felt of the service, and if they were doing the same thing over again what would they like to see done differently. If the clients have percieved any flaws in the performance of the previous PPS facilitator, then you'll have an idea of how to tailor the service that you are about to present. You've been given a fantastic opportunity...don't let your fears get in the way

What a great thread. I just had another thought after reading the general forum....What about a topic on dogs and kids. Since it seems that kids are statistically more likely to be bitten then perhaps talking about the kinds of kid behaviours are appropriate to allow around your dog and what dog behaviours are appropriate around your kids?

I have read that the socialisation and learning experiences we expose our pups to in the critical period actually does have an effect (or affect, depending on whether the experiences have been + or -) so profound that it alters the shape of the brain as it develops. The shape of the brain is 'set' (for want of better word) once the dog reaches 16 weeks of age. There is I expect an amount of development that we can (and need) to produce in pups especially in an effort to counter genetic propensity. But I don't believe the genetic component (the "leaky hose" as in Kelpie-i's post) is altered and that under duress the genetic tendancy is likely to re-appear. The difference will be that with broad and good social experiences (the "tape" as in Kelpie-i's post) inside that critical period, the reactivity (in this instance, shyness) threshold may be lowered than if those social experiences were absent. Still thinking on this..... I wonder if the neutralised dog who has also had confidence developed in positive drives has developed stronger neural pathways to that end and even if it did possess neural pathways that led to negative reactions, they have been weakened through lack of use? Is it the same with neural pathways as it is with muscles....that which isn't used atrophies? And is it that the sooner that you prevent activation of the negative neural pathways in a puppies developement, the less likely they will be relied on when the puppy matures? ETA: And, is this the process that is occuring in a dogs brain when we talk about response prevention during desensitisation work? IE, weakening an neural pathway by preventing its use?

Hi DT, I haven't had anything to do with puppy preschool so can't be of much assistance. If you look a little further down the page in the training forum, Sammyballerina asked a similar question a few days ago. There might be something there to help you. I guess as far as puppy preschool goes, some of the things that you might like to educate owners on are:- Preventative training....stopping those cute puppy habits from becoming unwanted behaviours later on. So, what are the most common unwanted behaviours that people complain about in their dogs?...nuisance barking, destructive behaviours like chewing, jumping on people, leash pulling, mouthing, house training etc. Independence training....having puppy learn that its OK, and safe to be left alone. Making sure that there is good leadership in place so that training goes smoothly....The NILIF program could be given. Also how about teaching the owners about the applicable legislation in your area affects their ownership and what things might affect what they can let their dog do, what are the implications of not adhereing to legislation. EG...what are the rules of offleash parks? What does the owner need to know and train their dog to be able to do in order for safest compliance? Also a biggie in my mind is that owners need to be aware that not every other person or every other dog is going to love their dog as much as they do, and they are within their rights and in some cases protected by the law to have those rights.....so perhaps puppy preschool is a good place to start having owners realise that they can't or shouldn't just let their dog approach any other dog or person without asking first? What are and what are not appropriate greeting behaviours between dogs....teaching something about body language and when its safe to let two dogs meet and when it isn't. But also what behaviours should not be allowed when greeting....for example, jumping on the other dog. Probably a lot more to do with it than that....but thats a few that fly off the top of my mind anyways.

There is a DVD that I hired from Blockbusters called "What The Bleep Do We Know" that covered this phenomenon of changing neural pathways in humans. It was quite interesting....it basically said that its difficult at first to form a new neural pathway, but the more the new pathway is used, the stronger it gets. The less the old pathway is used the weaker it gets. The stronger the new pathway gets, the more we are likely to default to its use as opposed to the old neural pathway. Kind of like forming a new habit or changing an old one maybe....its not always easy, but it can be done. I guess that dogs would be limited in this capacity because they don't have deductive reasoning or an analytical mind and the ways in which we can communicate with them are limited.

Thats a very interesting point Vickie. It struck a chord with me because last night I read through the entire Socialisation vs Neutralisation thread. I wonder if in a sense, these dogs were actually neutralised in that they were allowed to develop a lot of confidence in a restricted/limited environment before they were exposed to the outside world and in that sense everthing else already had a neutral value? Also because they were working dogs, their drives had already been developed and they had been allowed expression of them to reach drive satisfaction....so this presented an area in their mind where they could remain confident and thus be able to naturally prevent themselves from expression of negative drives? ETA: On the flip side, we can all think of examples of working breeds that are kept in the backyard who are socialised and to a certain extent are prevented expression of their natural drives who are very reactive.....mmmm. Good pondering point! Perhaps some of what we attribute to genetics is not really genetics at all.

What is your fee structure like? Do you charge for a beginners ob class, then go to nightly fees after they graduate from that? Just wondering because our club charges one annual fee. Members can keep coming back for the entire year. The major reasons people drop out in my opinion is that they are either not getting anywhere with their dogs or they have attained a level of obedience that they are happy with and find the classes boring. I believe that the former accounts for the majority of drop outs. The latter is easy to fix if you have enough willing instructors....organise some fun activities or new ways to apply distraction or vary the circumstances in classes so that the participants are always testing the skills that they have learned with their dogs instead of just repeating the same old stuff over and over again. So as Dogdude says quality of instruction is important. With this in mind, even if all instructors can't have the required level of education (and I say this recognising that instructors are volunteers and volunteers are generally thin on the ground) its important that there be instructors who do have a good degree of knowledge who are spare and can be available to give one on one to those who are struggling with the same issues week after week. After all, if you're not getting anywhere with your problem, why would you continue going back? Its also important to recognise that often the problem is with the handler and not the dog......the handler sometimes gets into a spot of bother and they lapse back into old habits...they need constant reminding until they form a new habit. I've heard so many times an instructor say of a particular participant "I told him/her X, but they just won't listen". I don't think its so much that they don't listen, sometimes its that they don't really take it on board in one telling. It needs to be re-iterated in a number of different ways at a number of different times under a number of different sets of circumstances. As an example, I've been attending my old club as an observer while I'm studying. One lady asked me for advice on a particular issue with her dog and for 6 weeks I've been spending 10-15 mins with her each training night telling her and demonstrating the same thing over and over again...she is only just now taking it on board and starting to habitually react in the right way to her dogs issues. Funny thing is, the dog got it straight away.....and the handler could see how it worked, she just kept lapsing into old habits. In a class environment, the instructor would not have had the time to spend 10-15 mins with one person. When you get drop outs, consider the person and the dog involved.....were they getting the results that they desired? Some clubs just don't ask enough questions of their clients to find out what it is that they actually want. The best marketing tool any form of business can have is clients who become advocates of that business. Results are what creates advocates. Here are some generally accepted statistics of the business world: *If a client is happy with the service they recieved, they will tell an average of one other person. *If a client is not happy they will tell an average of 10 other people. *Only 1 in every 10 people who are not happy will let that business know that they weren't happy or that the service didn't meet their needs. So, on the surface of it, it may seem that you're not getting that many complaints...but those few complaints can do a lot of damage to the business in the public eye. Often those that are making a complaint are very nice and self effacing about it....so their complaint may not be taken on board by the club for the potential damage that it may be doing in the public eye. The complainant may be saying things such as..."I know you are just all volunteers and doing you're best", or "My dog just isn't learning, its not your fault". They may be telling a very different story to their friends. But even if they are telling it to their friends the same way that they are telling you, if their friend has similar issues with their dog, they aren't really going to have any faith that you can help based on what they've heard.

I think that diversity is what helps promote survival of a species. There may come a time when environmental pressures for survival are altered and this alteration may not favour the survival of the confident, outgoing dog. Working lines that have been selectively bred for their abilities for hundreds or thousands of years still produce litter members that don't have what it takes to perform the duties that they were selected for to the required level. So regardless of breeding I think that mother nature ensures that there is still some diversity in characteristics. If you think about it on a human scale, despite the information age and access to education, not every child grows up to be an Einstein.....if they did nobody would be out growing crops for us to be fed. I don't mean to imply by that that those that grow crops are any less intelligent....just that sometimes diversity means that certain types of intelligence are more suited to different fields of knowledge. Its diversity that allows us to function as a society in a manner that promotes survival.

Interesting.... I wonder if that's the same as having a high or low threshhold to a trigger? Are people like dogs in that they just don't connect with the stimulation until it gets to a certain intensity that's individual to each? And I wonder if those threshholds can be manipulated to a certain extent in people as they can be in dogs? ETA: Thinking about that a little further and I think they can be manipulated somewhat in the same way that we sensitise or desensitise a dog to a stimulus.

My experience isn't vast enough to give a qualified opinion, but for myself I wouldn't now that I understand something of critical periods. I guess there is a possibility that the puppy may have good enough nerve to overcome the conditioning that it has missed out on.....but I personally wouldn't feel confident enough to judge that yet. Having said that, I do know of dogs that weren't socialised early and they seem to do OK....but what is it about them that they do OK...is it a hit and miss thing or something that can be judged early? Also, is one outing in one particular environment enough to judge on?

Ooooh, yeah! I think its easier to train dog than it is people. I'm faster on the theoretical uptake than I am on the practical application of it and I think that that is the same for a lot of people. I read somewhere that it takes a human somewhere between 30 to 90 days to change a habit. This can present a bit of a difficulty when you are teaching them something new. I don't think that it is always so much that they aren't capable its just that they subconsciously lapse back to old habits. With a lot of people I don't think its sufficient to demonstrate a technique once or twice, give them an explaination and then expect that they can do it....we need to look at the people and train them the same way we would train a dog. We don't expect that if we lure a dog into a sit once or twice that it will always sit on command. We need to go through the steps of teaching, training and proofing the behaviour in a number of different environments and under a number of different circumstances before the behaviour becomes habit for the dog. Some people need to go through a similar program when they are learning a training technique I think...teach, train and proof under a number of different circumstances in a number of different ways. After all, we need to teach the people to change their habits as well as the dogs. But once again, this isn't a fault intrinsic to the tool that is being used.

Yeah Sidoney, I've heard that they come with a DVD these days...must get a copy to have a look at. NW, I think I see where you're coming from. Thing is, all the studies in the world really do not educate as much as practical application and experience. Everyone has heard at least one story of how somebody with a bunch of letters after name come into a practical environment and performed uselessly because the science really didn't prepare them for the practical environment. The reality is that basing education on science alone merely sets up an environment that can sometimes support superstition and opinion that may be off centre. The most realistic and true to life information comes when the scientists and those with practical experience come together. Once upon a time scientists said that the earth was flat and everybody believed that...then somebody with the practical skills actually went out and had a look. One of the reasons why the studies mentioned have been so easily refuted is because they were working against those with practical experience rather than with them. To date, those interested in conducting studies into the e-collar really haven't been interested in working with those with the practical experience. If they were, then there would be no superstition. Those with the practical experience really have no need to conduct formal experiments to know why they stand where they do....in a sense, they have been conducting informal experiments for many years on many hundreds of dogs. They already know when and why fallout can occur and have developed methods to avoid this that those scientists that are interested in conducting experiments seem determined to ignore. So for them... the e-collar earth will always be flat.

You know what? Despite that little bit of cheekiness I'm glad that PP and PDTS posted what they did. I haven't used an e-collar but I can't rule out that one day there may be one in my tool box. When/if that day comes I won't have the benefit of the years of experience of some of the pro's that have also contributed to this thread. The training steps sure do look simple, but I'm glad of the opportunity to spend time looking into all the pro's and con's that this thread has pointed out and doing some personal research so that I could find a comfortable place within me for the knowledge. I'll also be able to speak of the pro's and con's with a lot more confidence..... So thanks to all the pro's and con's (sorry for that little pun...being cheeky again) I really do thank everyone for their contributions here

I don't do herding myself....I somehow have doubts about the 'herding' ability of Ridgies I stumbled across the following articles and enjoyed reading them so thought I'd share: Click here The herding articles start about 1/4 of the way down the page.

Still thinking on this....... Perhaps those that conducted the studies used medium level stims because their knowledge of dogs or their training methods were not sophisticated enough to be able to detect that the dog had felt the low level stim? So if the handler's/those conducting the study couldn't detect the effect, how could they know what and when to measure? Just another angle to look at it from I guess. I also figure that there was more happening in the training environment with the study on the dutch dogs than what that study reported on.....How did the dogs associate the stim with the handlers? What was happening for the dog to be able to pair the stim with the handler? ETA: A little more on Non-Ohmic stuff. Apparently those materials that are considered Non-Ohmic are generally those that have a high proportion of gas or liquid in their make up. Can't find anything to suggest what level it has to be at before its considered Non-Ohmic. Examples given include the air, plasma like in plasma screen TV's, battery acid as well has human and animal organisms. The resistance of Non-Ohmic materials is still measured in Ohm's despite the fact that these materials do not obey Ohm's law, but the value is found by algabraic manipulation of the Ohmic formula. That is, an x is placed where the R or Ohmic value would normally be in the formula, then the other variables in the formula are measured and applied in the formula to find the value of the x. From what I can find there is no other way to figure out what the resistance is in a Non-Ohmic material...it isn't measurable by itself. Take the above with a grain of salt though...a non scientific mind trying to interpret scientific jargon leaves room for error You're right LC....twould be good if there was a qualified electrical engineer on DOL who could help us out with this :tongue in cheek icon:

I taught the DOR in the triangle of temptation. Note, Steve didn't suggest this so he'll probably be able to poke it full of holes Imagine a triangle with dog on one point, me on the other and the food bowl on the 3rd. If I called her to me past the food, there was a point of slight resistance as she ran past the bowl...she wouldn't wash off any speed, just turn her head to look at it. Its at this point that I gave her the drop command. Initially, I guess because of the speed that she was travelling at she'd almost make it all the way to me before she dropped. So, I knew she'd heard the command. She just had to figure that she was only going to earn the release if she dropped the instant she heard the command. I just run her back to the starting point and do it all over again. She had already learned that she never gets the release when she's looking at the bowl....so you could see her trying to figure out what I wanted. I didn't practice this every day because I didn't want to wash off any speed in her recall...maybe once a week. It was going to be a while before we needed it in a trial anyways and I was kind of feeling my way through. At each weekly session, it probably took 3 or 4 reps before she dropped at the right time. And when she did, I'd immediately mark and release her. When she was solid at dropping right on time I started to mix it up a bit...Sometimes straight recall, sometimes drop and release, sometimes DOR and release after the front, and sometimes release after the finish. I didn't have a problem with her washing off speed in the recall...but initially a slight hesitation when I re-issued the recall after the drop. But it only took her a few moments to realise that she wasn't going to earn the release after the drop all the time and she'd still rocket in. My only problem now is that she's coming in so fast on the recall that even though she's in the process of dropping as soon as I give her the command, it takes her 3 or 4 strides to actually be down all the way. But I don't think they mark you down for that....do they? Interesting side note. During the initial stages of training this...she was just getting the hang of dropping on the run and wasn't really 100% at it yet, I was mowing one day and noticed a big paper wasp nest on the fence on the first run with the mower. I just slowed the mower down and poked past it slowly thinking that I'd deal with it after I got off the mower. Finished the first run and was heading back for the second run when Siekah woke up and come looking for me. When she spotted me down the bottom of the paddock she come barrelling down the fence line in the nice short grass right next to the fence. I thought...oh shyte, she's gonna get hit by those wasps. I screamed out for her to drop...she hesitated, washed off some speed but kept coming so I screamed out again and she dropped....phew! I'd never screamed the command at her before. DOR is a bl@@dy handy thing for a dog to know!

I'm sure that someone will correct me on this if I'm wrong but I think I remember reading somewhere that Delta's Cert 4 is in "Companion Animal Services". NDTF does do Cert 4 to specialise as a Dog Behaviourist as opposed to dog trainer (the Cert 3 part), but the Cert 4 part is not run on a regular basis.....its only done when there is sufficient interest and the applicable lecturers are available. Choosing which you want to do will depend on how you wish to specialise I guess.

Here's an interesting observation I made at dog club a few weeks ago. Dog looks to be a Wolfhound cross, male, entire, 12 months old. Handler is his second owner. In her words the previous owners didn't treat him very well so she asked if she could have him and they said yes. This dog humps the handler only after she rewards him for the correct behaviour. No reward, no hump. The handler is rewarding verbally and with pats as he is not food motivated....they haven't suggested a game with a toy as reward cuz they haven't really taken that side of things on board yet. Any suggestions?

Gidday Hyland Mist. I train a sight hound. Check out K9 Force's Triangle of Temptation pinned at the top of the training forum. Also checkout this thread: Prey Drive, Control and Focus Prior to learning the above stuff our pass strike rate at trial was 20%. Since its gone up to 100% so far. We're even getting placings even though I'm still learning and refining my skills. There is a lot of reading, but its worth your time.

I've been doing some research and I've found that Ohm's Law doesn't apply to all materials. Those materials that Ohm's Law doesn't apply to are referred to Non-Ohmic materials, resistors or conductors. The human body and other animal organisms are listed as Non-Ohmic. Ref:Halliday, David, Robert Resnick, and Kenneth Krane. Physics. 4th ed. New York: John Wiley and Sons, 1992. Serway, Raymond A. Physics for Scientists and Engineers. 3rd ed. Philadelphia: W. B. Saunders Co. Couldn't find those in bold below.....but we have some authors in common.... Have I misunderstood something?...I'm no scientist and I'll admit to finding some of the jargon confusing. It hurt my head actually On the subject of the 30 pages of review of studies my basic overall impression (and I'm doing it this way cuz if I replied to all the questions I'd jotted down while reading it my post would end up at 60 odd pages) is that while most of the studies seemed to have a bias against e-collars, they come from two basic different directions. There is the camp that says 'don't use them because they harm the dog in ways that negatively affect their behaviour' and the camp that says 'don't use them because they have no effect on changing behaviour'. So....aren't they basically contradicting each other? Funny thing is, when you look at the big picture of the review, some of the studies seem to contradict some of the others and sometimes this is seen in what isn't said. For example, you've got the study that says that electric containment systems make dogs dangerously aggressive. Then you've got the study that says that electric containment systems didn't stop wolves from eating prey enclosed in them in the long term. But there was no mention that the electric containment system turned the wolves dangerously aggressive. If the first study was right, then wouldn't the aggression have also been produced in the second? Then there are the sighing rats. I can only come to the conclusion that this was put in for emotive reasons because none of the studies made mention of sighing dogs as a measurable or noticeable reaction so I really don't see a scientific reason why this study was referred to. Like I said, I'm no scientist....but I do have a laymans understanding of the scientific method which is basically a protocol under which hypothises are developed and put to the test through experimentation. Many of the studies seem to be lacking in their application of scientific method one of the maxims of which is that you can't really prove a theory by experimentation...you can only seek to disprove it and it only becomes accepted when it can't be disproven. The studies included in the review made no or poor attempts to disprove their theories by the inclusion of controls, blinds and double blinds. As LC has pointed out, they have also failed the test of full disclosure. Imagine if human medicine and surgical technique was developed by following similar protocols as was done in the studies of the review....

Hi Debra, Hope you don't mind a reply from a current NDTF student :D I'm currently doing the cert III by distance learning as I live in Qld. I'm off to my second block in Nov. I'm sooo loving not only the course, but how being involved in it is also opening my mind to more questions to persue the answers to. My learning is exploding in leaps and bounds in some areas, but in others showing me how many areas that I thought I was confident in my knowledge were a little off centre....to say the least. I started out as a fairly inexperienced volunteer instructor at my local obedience club....back then I thought I knew it all I became increasingly disenchanted with that world because something about it was failing so many dogs and handlers in so many ways. I do plan to make some sort of career out of what I'm learning. Since I enjoy country living though and don't plan to move to a city anytime soon, I'm going to have to be creative in how I apply what I'm learning. Thats just another challenge that I'm looking forward to. I don't think that the area that I live in has the population base to support a full-time career. Like Erny, I don't think that the course will be the end for me. I'm getting such a buzz out of what I'm learning and applying it to the dogs I come across that I think in a sense I'll always be a student in this field cuz I equally enjoy the learning side too. Since the course has a heavy grounding in behavioural science, one of the great things that I've been able to do is go through all the training books that I've gathered over the years and rule out those suggestions that behavioural science really don't support. I'm gaining confidence in looking at methods and either adjusting them to suit a particular dog/handler combo or totally ruling them out. I still have a long way to go though.

I've got a friend that has a desexed male that looks exactly like her. I'm gonna email a linky. My friends dog is called Barnes, but is known affectionately as Bungy Barnes and from your description seems to have a similar personality to Lucinda. She looks a sweetie.