dogdude

This is an open forum to discuss all views held by everybody. I certainly am against any personal attack on a point of view regarding training methods, but although very greatfull to receive help from the professional people on this forum, its still an open forum. The professionals on this forum drum up plenty of business from it, so im sure they wont mind another persons point of view. After all, they too have different methods they believe in.

Leopuppy04, Myszka, I now understand your point regarding the rules, but I still think it should be standard practice to teach a trialling dog correct focus ie; handlers midriff - chest area. This is where your hand signals begin to be sighted by the dog, but more importantly, where your body signals change of pace. When you move forward, your upper body naturally bends forward under the momentum (cue for dog to move off or increase pace). The opposite happens when we slow down (body slowly straightens) (cue for dog to slow down or stop & sit). When teaching this to a green dog, I exaggerate the motion slightly, until it is clearly understood. If the dog is allowed to look in any other area while working, it will be more likely to be distracted or miss a signal. It can take a very long period of time (up to a year) for a dog to heel properly at the proper trialling level while focusing its vision upward. The dog virtually has to learn to walk and balance itself again as its an unnatural position regarding balance.

As for the titles etc - while Myszka is right - you don't NEED the dog to look at you for any obedience level, if that is what you want for your end goal, work for it now.... it is much easier to start training for precision at day one then change the criteria half way through when the dog is already set in concrete. JMHO I am confused by this statement. Are you saying that a dog does not need to look at its handler while working? If so, how is the dog supposed to cue itself using your body language or hand signals?

Hi Sasjeep It sounds to me like your dogs problem might lie with a lack of socialization with the outside world. If you exaust all of his interests in all the strange and new things, he will be fine. Getting focus is great for a working obedience dog while the "switch is on", the difference being that you are simply walking him, not working him. It is asking too much of a dog IMO to have the switch turned on all the time. Formal training at a club will allow you to both regulate that switch when needed, and also exaust his interest in other dogs and people. Being in "prey drive" is a little more complex than just having a ball in your hand. It sounds like his version of prey drive is everything else he sees while out walking, which has a higher value to him than the ball. A 10 month old pup wants to explore the world, and he should be encouraged to do so under your watchfull eye.

I can certainly understand everyones various points, but what is the answer? Ideally large dog - small dog group stays? Who knows? Proofing is another hot topic where I am concerned. It seems to me that some obedience clubs have forgotten what it means! I commonly here comments like "setting your dog up to fail" etc etc. IMO its setting your dog up to win! How many triallers actually pounce on rainy days to work their dog? I have to agree with Alfa, and the rest of you that beleive the problem lies within the clubs, for a variety of reasons!

Hi poodlefan But I want the last word!!! I like to win remember!!! :D

Sport is full of backmarkers and also rans. Do we take them out and only compete with the front runners? How will they ever get to the elite level? In the case of '' dangerous dogs" in trials, there are rules in place to disqualify and remove dogs like this in a trial and that type of thing is rare. I think it is great that a lot more people are having a go, ready or not. The more, the merrier. I suppose this debate could go on forever! :D

Poodlefan: The question I pose for you is how many of those students would have bothered to go on to "real trialling level" had they not been encouraged to have a go. A lot of these get motivated by their experience and go on to bigger things. The trialling dog is a showcase of the handlers talents and if sound, will not be worried by outside influences. In most cases, your dog will show you up as the problem! To be worried by this to me is worrying about my own ability. The problem is, novice is made up of probably 70% of dogs that are not ready as well. Where does the debate end? Just remember that we compete in a "sport". People get involved in sport for a number of reasons, not just to win. (me not one of those :D )

It may be a pain for serious beginners to enter CCD with the level of most of the competitors but there needs to be some bridging level to encourage new blood to the sport. It gets boring to see the same old trail blazers at every trial all the time. The serious triallers with experience would not bother entering anyway, why would you? When I was trialling around 8 years ago the sport was starting to take a dive until this was introduced. This at least shows them what they need to strive for.

Hi Leopuppy04 The way I proof is usually to get a dog from an earlier class (crazier the better) to approach my dog during the sit stay while on lead. I then allow the owner of crazy to allow it to get within sniffing distance, building up to light contact. Of course, I would be very carefull to choose a proofing subject for a small dog. At the end of the day, fear factor will overide any proofing if strong enough but you can go a long way in conditioning them somewhat.

The question I pose for you guys is this: Is there a need to ware a maximum impact training device on a TRAINED dog on a lesurely walk. If so, I personally, would seriously be thinking about how well my methods/devices have worked to make the dog understand what is required from it. My idea of a walk with the dog is just that, a walk. I have had to have full confidence in my dogs while in public as a past owner and trialler of Bull Terriers. They were all walked on flat collars while one of them was trained with a prong.

As a victim of this experience in one of my first trials, have done my best to proof this in my training at every chance I get. It only makes sense that this is the main thing that you should proof a trialling dog against. It has since saved my bacon on several occasions. My dog was very briefly humped, after a few seconds he then chose to get up. I was not offered a second chance. Its is also a good idea to proof your dogs for down stays on muddy ground.

Hi Myszka The only arguement I have for those points is that they are both issues that should be taken care of in formal training. The time you should need them the most, is while training, not out while walking the dog although I can see your point, (leaning towards unusual and unforseen situations?)

Hi Myszka While personally, I wouldn't have a problem, I cant see why you would want to keep one on a trained dog. They are after all, a training tool, not an accesessory. When I walk my dog I use a flat collar, as he is trained. I dont have confidence issues therefore dont need the check chain needed to get him to that level. When I walk him, I choose not to train him, or correct him, as it is his lesure time. When its training time, on it goes. If my dog was unreliable while on a walk, I would be looking at the effectiveness of my training methods.

I think that what many people that are not informed about Prongs dont realize is that they are designed to be a short term, but effective, fast working method to getting your dog on a flat collar. I think that some get visions of dogs wearing them for the rest of their lives. If you use them for more than a short time, you are not getting the result intended.

I would be interested in being involved in trying to change the prong legislation in Victoria, but where would we start? Dr Hugh "Wirthless" doesnt listen to anyone but his own echo. Do we have any Victorian DOLers that are legal eagles?

KylieandPossum I think you expected a reaction to your attack on aversive methods and I wanted to point out that if used fairly, there is nothing wrong with them. I use a combination of both positive and aversive with good results. I also worked on a mixed Dairy/Beef farm for a number of years and have no problem with farming or herding. There is no malace intended even no I knew you would be offended. Just a poor attempt at being light hearted.

Kylieandpossum Just could not work out your line of standards concerning what you might consider cruelty, when you dont seem to have any problem with your dogs herding sheep. Im sure the sheep dont enjoy the fun in a herding trial. Is their well being a concern to you as your dogs well being are? Perhaps I misunderstood something but it seems like double standards to me.

KylieandPossum I agree in that everyone is entitled to their opinion. And in my opinion, I think that we should clicker train sheep to herd themselves so they are not scared and put under undue stress or nipped at by herding dogs just to win ribbons! :D My genuine oppologys, couldnt resist As long as you are being fair and the dog is enjoying what he is doing, there is nothing wrong with aversive methods. My dog certainly loves training.

I think that I can see what you want from your dog now. I think that you would get more value in your training by concentrating on proofing your recall with distractions, whilst also proofing your stationary drops working at a distance. To start teaching the drop on recall requires you to first have a positively reliable dog doing the standard recall. Both are easy to teach but must be thoroughly proofed. As a self confesed Diane Bauman fan, I use Roms method (but use multiple low boards) for the drop on recall. Most dogs will slow down when you begin to teach them because they are worried about missing the hand signal. This is quickly gotten over by giving clear, steady hand signals. You need to build a 100% confident dog whith this exersize for it to be done well.

Hi Kismetkat Im not too sure exactly what you are aiming to achieve? Is it the drop on recall? or simply to drop on the move during heelwork, or other? Are you aiming to trial?

I think its more a horses for courses thing. Personally, If I was to start out again with the intention of trialling, I would seek out a mentor with a dog with the highest degree of title, in which I aggreed with their training methods. Their ringcraft and interment knowledge of trialling would be more than usefull. Their dog would be one that I admired, and be all that I wanted my own dog to be. A newbie handler usually just wants a managable dog and dosnt know anything about competition, and are not often interested until they eventually get bitten by the bug. There is always something to be learn't about dog training from most experienced handlers, no matter what methods they use, or what you think you know as one. Thats why this forum is so good!

Hi Myszka Not sure if this question is directed to K9, but I would perhaps try rewarding maybe every second recall, and possibly stand against a wall to make sure she wont run past you. If this didnt work you could perhaps create a little obstacle close in to where she is required to stop, by placing some broad jumps on their edges, fashioned into a slight funnell shape that ends just in front of your feet. She would have to navigate her way a bit slower to avoid a collision, and sit in a pefectly straight position in front. (I used a couple of bricks for a gate to force a straight sit) I dont think that these methods would affect her drive status, but I have not yet tried the prey drive method.

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Hi tizey I think that perhaps you should be looking at the dogs height being a problem! Focus on the handlers eyes are designed for mainly medium to large dogs. If a JRT was to heel along in the correct position while looking in your eyes, I feel his head would have to be at an angle beyond 90 degree's, or he would be heeling wide. Focus with small dogs needs to be directed lower, ie; waist or knee. Perhaps someone who has recently taught focus to a small dog may want to expand on this and share their experience? Lab & Poodle?