dogdude

Hi Erny I think when I wrote that statement I was making a connection with my own dog in that he has no interest whatsoever in playing fetch. I would not bother to teach him the forced retreive because I think that he would like the game more, because that was my wish. Im happy for him to do it when "I" require him to do it, in an obedience trial or training while I provide the motivation that he prefers. If I throw a ball, my dog will look at me with "that look" (pfttt!) This subject came up with Lab and Poodle and he seemed to disagree with me too. Cant seem to put it in the right words! Does any of it make sense to you? Disagree?

Hi Helen There could be "reasons" why your dog spits the dumbell. But it would be hard to troubleshoot from behind a pc Do you use food to motivate the dog? and if so, what is the routine? If you reward with food either too much or at the wrong time, the dog will often mouth or spit the dumbell in antisipation of the treat. The times I use food to motivate the exercise is after the finish is complete with dog back at heel. If this is not the problem it seems like it is just a basic misunderstanding of what is required. Simply go back to the drawing board of the initial learning process until the dog is clear. Sometimes this sought of thing can happen when you teach the dog to quickly. I teach them to be able to do a heel pattern during the "hold" stage with it in their mouth. When the dog drops it on the rare occasion, I usually just point to the dumbell without a word as a reminder and no further correction is required.

JulesP: There is no good reason to "not teach" a dog through to UD before starting to trial. When a dog is ready to move on to the next level, why worry about a title to proove it? Most clubs have now broken up for Christmas so why waste that time waiting to trial in a couple of months. Some members of this forum have got their UD titles shortly after their dog turned one year old. The trouble with obedience clubs and the reason that they dont usually hold specific trialling classes is because of the lack of numbers interested in trialling, especially newbies who think that they will never own a dog capable until they train one themselves and gain the confidence to have a go. The process is also slowed because the clubs tend to not worry so much on focus and heeling precision needed to have a successful high scoring dog. They then find that to be really successfull, they need to basically retrain their dog to the required level to some extent. They often tell you that you "just need to apply some polish" to get them there but often because some important things have been "overlooked" in the training, the newby trialler ends up "having a go" with a dog that is not ready.

My fav's have always been Bull Terriers and I got hooked after I fell in love with the breed. Found them extremely hard to train but managed to train a trial winner. I love obedience and trialling and I always promised myself a working dog to kick butt with but just couldnt choose a breed that I didnt like when it came to the crunch. I did make a slight deviation though and now train a Stafford. My hair is now starting to grow back and they now allow me to take off my straight jacket on weekends

Hi JulesP Have you trialled before? If you have a pup or very young dog, why not train through to UD before trialling him? This will give him time to mature. Trialling dogs seem to get a real "air" about their confidence when about 2 years old and it gives them plenty of time to gain proper balance while heeling with their head in the air looking up at you. You should end up with a very high scoring dog! Maybe a trial winner?

Yep, mine arrived thursday but I hav'nt been game to look up the cost yet

Hi Boxagirl Nice focus Looks to be coming along nicely!

I wish the Northern suburbs of Melbourne had a club with a set up like that!

Hi Leopuppy I just want to clear up any misconceptions about your version of the "real forced retreive". It is most imperitive that absolutely no force whatsoever is used to keep the jaws shut around the dumbell other than taking the weight gently at best by placing your hand under the dogs chin. If you use any kind of force you will end up with broken teeth and a bad association with the dumbell. It seems that there is a lot of misconceptions about the forced retreive. There should be no "slamming" or any other kind of dangerous forced used. It is certainly a method to be used with trainers with a very cool and calm head because there is no room for frustration with this way more than any other.

Dont know of any in Victoria but maybe there should be a couple? It would be fantastic to attend a class with a purpose instructor! It would also cause problems with instructor levels at normal clubs even if it was held on an alternative day i'd suspect. With everyone competing at trials of a weekend they would have to train during the week.

Wheres my rock If someone hung my dog i'd be tempted to put it on them! Unfortunately, some clubs have huge bank accounts but dont use it to further educate their volunteer instructors. I here Myszka's club are leaps and bounds above many others in this regard?

Wheres my rock: Personal choices aside, would you not take a dog to obedience rather than to put a check chain on it? What is the difference in the harshness of the correction? Check chain uses a more dangerous level than the forced retrieve. What are your thoughts?

Wheres my rock I can see what your saying but the only connection I made regarding prongs is that they use no more force, and are often misconcepted like them. Like all other forms of aversive type training, there will always be someone that abuses it. That is why I think it is an execise that should be learnt under close supervision like any other form of training. The main reason I originally learnt the method was that the club that I originally attended gave me no alternatives when their method didnt work. Have you ever tried to teach a Bull Terrier anything let alone retrieve? This method worked a treat for me and I suppose I have used it for most of my following dogs except one (which was trained using positive methods) who I found to be an unreliable retriever. Without too much thought, went back to the forced retrieve and never had a problem again. This is just my experience and why I beleive in using it. Working in Prey drive has me interested and I have purchased an orbee. I am interested in all forms of training. Think I will have to wait for my next dog though as I have finished the main part of his training using a mixture of aversive and positive methods.

Hi Wheres my rock: To answer that question, I would have to say that its probably for the same reason that you think your method is best, it works, and I have a happy dog while working. Is the ear pinch method any harsher than a check chain or prong collar? The answer is no, they are all designed to acheive the same compliance when used correctly. I am not saying anything against positive methods of retreive either. I knew this would create an interesting subject for people to debate and it will highlight different peoples points and views which is great!

K9: Isn't the slinking dog look also a clear sign that a dog is unsure of mechanics of an exercise and not only a "sign of aversive training? Most dogs overcome the "slinky dog look" when they are totally clear about an exercise and I feel generalising can be misleading. Take the drop on recall for instance: At first dog slows dramatically upon the down command because the second command cancels out the first, but after clear understanding, gets back to normal speed. As most novice triallers want to move into open asap their dogs are often caught in transition. The same can be said of retreive on occasions. In my own experience I have found that as long as the dog is motivated, you wont have a slinky dog unless it is not clear on what is required. What are your thoughts on this?

Hi K9 Would you use prey drive in place of food for a trialling dog using your methods? The example you have used was for playing fetch? As I said before, I personally would not use any forcefull method to play fetch with my dog because I hold no importance whatsoever on my dog being able to do this, but yours sounds like a great method to do so.

I can see a major typo with my last sentence and that would be that I certainly "WOULD NOT" bother to teach etc etc and also highlight that it is only my opinion.

Kelpie-i I use it to "teach", not correct. The reason I posted this was to get different opinions and also to highlight some misconceptions, and I thank you for your opinion.

K9: Question: Would you agree that most trialling dogs start life as simple pets purchased without intention of trialling? Question: Would you really get rid of a pet in order to get a retreiving dog? Question: Are you so against obedience trialling that you find need to twist every sentence I and others have written in order to mock people? I can appreciate that you are a qualified person but surely this cant be good for your business? I do however appreciate your constructive thoughts on the matter. I would like to add that I certainly would not bother to teach a pet fetch forcefully because fetch is play, retrieve IMO is work. Anyway, moving on.....

I personally use the ear pinch method. Like all other aversive methods, IMO are not cruel or barbaric. Thats just the reason I liken the method to prong collars as far as misconception goes. If you pinch your own ear you will find it uncomfortable, but not barbaric. Like all other aversive methods, they are not used constantly on the dog for all of time. I certainly see the points made about getting a dog for the job, if you had that luxury, but in the real world of pet owners, not practical. Personally, I cant see merrit in getting rid of a dog because it was not genetically geared to do a certain task otherwise we would not need to train dogs to do anything that they were not bred for. This is why the forced retrieve is great for dogs that were not bred to do so, if not an alternative. K9: Pliers? fishing wire? WTF??? I certainly would never go that far and cant see a reason for anybody to go there in the first place! THANKS FOR ALL YOUR OPINIONS AND KEEP THEM COMING!

Hi Amhailte I too aggree with you about using corrections during the learning phase, but for whatever reason (possibly fear of changing a winning method), make an exception for the retreive although once learnt, revert to food drive for motivation. To answer your question about the advantages, IMO reliability. K9: I too agree with your thoughts about a clear headed dog regarding any exercise. Do you think that what I have done about changing the dogs drive would make a difference? I think that when learning this exercise at first they seem a little reserved of their opinion of it until it is made clear. By introducing the food drive seems to have quickly made it his favorite exercise, but at the same time, kept his reliability. By combining the two, he was reliably retreiving (without full proofing) in about a week and a half. He had no natural play drive to fetch before this. Please remember that I am not here to argue which method is better, just interested in everyones opinions!

Yes Mollassaslas, but very vague at best! What I am interested in is actually how many DOL triallers use it, and if not, what was it that made them choose the methods they do use? I find it strange that many people at dog obedience clubs are so afraid that when they reach the trialling classes that their dog wont retrieve because they're not intrested. On the other hand, a lot of clubs teach retrieve as a play type exercise. I know a large percentage of these instructors use the forced retrieve themselves. I have seen many people give up on the idea because they dont own a playfull dog that "plays fetch". "Fetch", is not "retrieve".

Just interested in hearing your views on the forced retrieve as it is a subject very rarely brought up. Personally, I see it in the same basket as prong collars when it comes to misconceptions. Pehaps you have reasons for having a different view?

Hi Daisy2002 Some dogs respond better using other drives. Have you explored her food drive? Often herding and working type dogs have a naturally high prey drive and others less so. As long as you have some type of motivator, it dosn't matter. There are plenty of knowledgeable people on this forum who will fill you in on prey drive techniques.

I take it we are talking formal obedience training with trialling in mind Myszka? Like to train a new exercise being learnt about 5x2 minute sessions a day until the dog has a clear understanding of what is required. When we have achieved that level I tend to drop the sessions back to around 15 minutes every second day for the proofing (maintenance) from there on in. In Summer I will decrease it to every third day during hot weather unless its right before a trial. In Winter I will often increase the proofing as I find it hard to keep bull breeds motivated in hot weather. I think its most important to tailor a program that keeps your dog motivated 100% and I quite often quit before I start if I think its not there. The biggest challenge is keeping it.