dogdude

I was an instructor at the Portland Club for a few years some time ago, but I have recently got back into it and have joined the Craigieburn Club. I trained at Broadmeadows for a short time last year with another dog, but Craigieburn is closer to where I am in Epping.

Hi Wheres my rock Yes, I find that using her method with the figue 8 seems to improve the dogs general heel work, sometimes by 30-40%. Her understanding of what the dog is thinking while learning is interesting too. Sorry to highjack the thread! I found an intersting website of a victorian trainer with Cavaliers who are Obedience Champion Titled. His positive reinforcment methods for training very young puppies from 8 weeks old are really interesting. I'm not a fan of full positive reinforcment but I think for young puppies they are great. Google "Eddie and Anne's Cavaliers" and read through the training storys for each of his dogs. This also gives some small dog training methods.

Hi where's my rock Yes! I have trained many dogs with her methods as an instructor and use the book like a bible. I dont agree with everything in it, but most of it make sense. I have tried several other methods of training and found many bits and pieces that work from each. The small and large dog techniques in the Bauman book work particulary well. I am now looking into prey drive techniques with my new staffy.

Hi Bikle One small dog method that I have used to good effect in the past was to use a "solid lead". Get a piece of dowel a bit shorter than a metre (custom make it to suite your height) and drill a hole in one end to attach a ring, or fitting that connects onto your check chain (or short leader) depending what method of training you are using. It is great for keeping the dog in the correct heeling position without getting tangled up with the small dog. It also stops you having to bend over while organising him to correct heeling position. If you are coordinated enough, you can also use a back-scratcher in conjunction to guide straight sits etc.

Hi rdr71 To answer your question, the focus should be on you. The trouble is that you need to teach focus first, and separately to the stay. The dog will get very confused if trying to teach both within the same exercise. Focus is the basis for all exercises and is a must. When you think about it, nearly all mistakes made by the dog when learning all relate to focus. There is a big difference between the dog being "wrong" and "choosing" not to do an exercise, and this should be thought about carefully when using corrective type methods during the learning phase of a new exercise. When the dog is simply "wrong", gently show him what is reqired ie: gently placing him back into the sit stay with your hands rather than a rip on the check chain. When you do this, dont repeat the command or the dog will find no need to remember it the first time. In my opinion, the best advise I could give you is that "wrong is good", the dog is learning something!

Hi rdr71 If you continually practice your stays without challenging your dogs mind, it becomes highly likely that your dog will be what's referred to as "pattern trained." When the pattern is broken, ie: strange or new situation like other animals coming within close proximity and every other thing that can and will happen, the dog then gets confused and breaks. Pattern trained dogs often tune out because they dont anticipate anything new, and simply get bored out of their brains with the same old, same old. For trialling dogs for instance, the first thing you would proof against for the sit stay is when single or multiple dogs break the stay and wander over to your dog to sniff or play. When one dog breaks in a trial, it can often cause a domino effect and cause other peoples dogs to break, and the other pattern trainers will not be impressed with you! This line of thought goes for practically all exercises, not just the stays. If you train a dog to keep an active mind while working, your problems will be less common.

In my opinion, the key to getting reliable stays lies with the dog having being taught focus first. Most dogs fail the exercise because they simply forget what they are doing. When the dog fully understands the exercise, fully proofed, with all the necessary temptations being ignored, I beleive that only then, full focus is no longer required. Some will disagree with this, but it will all depend on what situations you are actually proofing for. This is the most important stage of teaching the exercise, as it will be up to you to forsee what situations the dog may get into under your command while being placed in the stay. (ie; outside the local milkbar unsupervised , mowing the front lawn etc) The reason that I dont worry too much about full focus later on is because I often put my dog in long stays while mowing the front lawn etc, and I believe that I would be asking too much of the dog for that long, and besides, the dog by then fully understands what is required. I start to teach the sit stay after focus and sitting. The down stay usually dosn't require any additional training as long as they understand the sit stay. While teaching it I concentrate on distractions before distance, and the only corrections I use are a calm "utt", when the dog breaks, followed by gently placing the dog back into postion. Harsh corrections, especially after gaining distance should be avoided, as this can cause fear every time you return to the dog, very bad for triallers! One thing that I strongly believe in, is that if you are not adding a new distraction to a dog that understands the exercise every time you train, then you might as well not bother, you are only pattern training the dog and setting it up for future failure.

Hi Kristie In my experience this is one of the most common problems when educating a green dog. I have used all methods as an instructor and found that different methods for the various size, and temperaments, of the dogs are required. A large robust dog can be taught the "hand under the belly" method, but many dogs cant stand this and take exception to it. A lot of green handlers make the mistake of lifting the dog after it has sat, when the help was needed before they actually sat. This often causes the cringing dog look and can slow down the learning of a soft dog. I have seen the foot method used to good effect with experienced handlers, but again, this can be very awkward for small dogs and inexperienced handlers. I originally used that method on my very first dog and had problems with my dog sitting wide as a result. (probably due to my inexperience at the time). I found "Suzy Moles" method very effective with small dogs. You form a lasso with the handle of your lead and arrange it around the rear of his torso and hold the middle of the lead like a handbag! Using this method stops you bending over the top of the dog which is another advantage as it disconnects you from the help. Dogs learn quicker with less stress. I found it better to concentrate on this execise seperately to heeling patterns, using staight lines only, with quick stands in succession. Always make sure that you are very gentle with your help when he tries to sit. I found a little positive reinforcement helps until he understands the exercise. They often confuse the drop and stand commands early on because the footwork is very simular, so take some time proofing the stand by alternating with the down. It is important to not show your frustration while he is learning a new exercise, which can be difficult for new handlers at obedience clubs.

What do you mean by "inteligent" or "smart"? Different breeds were originally bred with differnt tasks in mind. Working dogs to work stock, terriers to dig,hunt,hold, sighthounds to run and hunt, toys breeds for lap dog companions etc etc. If a border collie cant dig and hunt well, is it less intelligent than a terrier? Likewise, If a terrier has very little drive to work stock, is it classed as stupid? Do you get my drift? If you are talking pure obedience sports then working type dogs have natural drive for it, and are usually quicker to train because of that reason. They are often more structually able to achieve higher scores than some other breeds for a variety of reasons. This dosnt mean that other breeds will perform any worse, its up to you as a trainer and handler to find the source of drive in each individual to incorporate into your training. I have seen plenty of unlikely trial winners, and I admire them the most!

My experience has taught me that if you want traits in a dog for obedience purposes like being "fast" etc is that is can be beneficial to choose a dog that is around a year old to have a good look at his energy levels and motivation etc. I have found it almost impossible to train train exercises which I think could have more speed in particular, and it would be much easier to shape an exuberant, fast one, than a slow one. Dogs often start to mature at around two years of age and it's an ideal time to think about trialling, giving you a full year to educate the dog. I have trained a number of Bull Terriers and have observed the vast differences between dogs in these areas and think that "the perfect picture" regarding an exersise, are more to do with the individual dog, rather than a different breed although I conceed that some breeds will be quicker to train, and be more structually able to acheive a perfect score.

Hi The trouble with many obedience club instructors concerning small breeds is that they are either ignorant of small dogs because of a lack of knowledge on using small dog techniques with the conventional obedience club style of training (praise and correction) which inturn embarresses them in front of class through lack of results. Or they have simply never personally trained one. They often then choose to ignore them and try and dance around their lack of knowledge with the "dont like small dogs" quip, or "keep going and he will get there eventually". I have seen and heard these comments accross a few different clubs and have never heard of any other small dog techniques offered to their owners. It only stands to reason that different methods to teach focus and heeling are required for small dogs (as well as very large dogs for that matter). Diane Bauman, a top USA trainer, has both small, large and conventional methods in her book "Beyond Basic Dog Training". She has a series of perfect 200 scores in obedience trials with one of her dogs being a Pappilion that has the title of Obedience Champion. She uses a mixture of the conventional praise and correction methods mixed with positive re-enforcement. She believes that it is good for a dog to be "wrong" when learning an exersise, which she then uses methods to "show" the dog the required way without physical correction. When she thinks the dog feels it has a choice not to attempt an exersise, only then it is corrected. My mother owned two Pappilions and although a high maintenance breed coat wise, were very intelligent.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood what you were trying to achieve. I take it that you have a Bull Terrier? I have owned 4 of them and I know what sook's they can be to manipulate a situation. They are not the easiest of breeds to train either although I used to trial one some years ago, and had great success until his early death. My current new addition is the first non Bull Terrier I have owned (Staffordshire). You would think they would be very simular but I have found them to be world's appart with the way they learn thing's.

Not to try and put a dampener on these suggestions, but isn't the main point to have no toy's on the ground in the morning? The dog won't give itself a command to start the clean up so, like the solution for kids, get rid of the box full of toy's and limit them to just a few of his favorite's. The more they have, the more mess there will be.

Not sure but if you work out a way to teach kids, patent it and sell it on ebay. I will volunteer my 3 as Guinea Pigs!

Thats the great part about the sport of dog obedience. The dog is the handler's own creation while in the ring and the only exuse for failure is your own preperation. Personally I found the show people much more on the bitchy side compared to obedience people at trial's. You should take in all available advise for your training tips and use only the one's that you are comfortable with using. If you dont believe in your method's or your instructor's, how will your dog believe what you are teaching it. This forum can be used as a great training tool. There are plenty of knowledgeable people using this site that can give you plenty to think about with your training method's and problem solving. You can also tap in to your club's members by using a dog/handler team that you admire to use as a mentor or training partner. Most people will be glad to help and will take you under their wing. Good luck!

I totally agree with lab and poodle, especially concerning the right time to trial. You will know when your dog is at the required level. If you always keep a picture of the perfect exersise in your mind during training, and get somewhere as close as possible to that, then you will not only be confident, but you will start to rack up many wins along the way. The sad fact is, in my experience, is that around 50-60% of novice dogs entered in trials are nowhere near the mark. The good news for you is that you will have all the confidence in the world and the trophy's to prove it. The most common reason for trial failure is lack of attention and focus on the dogs part. If you can teach this, then you have won 80% of the battle won. Nerves will quickly turn to smile's!

Hi all I know what you all are on about with some club and trialling people. There is always a few that have too much to say. The trialling sceen has plenty of people playing for keeps and it is a competitive world out there. A number of years ago I trialled an English Bull Terrier and when I walked passed one group of competitors that were to compete in the same ring, I overheard someone say "The only good thing for those dogs is a bullet"! Some of the others agreed. Nothing gave me more satisfaction during my time in dogs than picking up Best In Trial that day. There are always the odd competitive people in obedience clubs who think that there is a race between handlers to get their dogs to trialling level but I suppose a bit of healthy competition is good for the sport. Its just a shame sometimes that it gets directed at begginers or the new kids on the block. Unfortunately, the best way to respond is to let your dog do the talking and tune them out. There is always a few at every club (some of them instructors). I am now training a young Staff and he is comming on gangbusters. Will spend the next few months applying the polish and hope to trial him soon. Cant wait.

Hi Shoemonster You will find most of the trial judges to be quite pleasant and very relaxed during the judging process. They often make small talk with the stewards to take the focus feeling off the handler. They are always neutral and will often offer you advise after the trial is completed where needed. I'm sure that you will see for yourself on Saturday.

Hi lab and poodle I too am training a young, new addition, (Staffordshire Terrier) (11 months old). He is vastly different to any other dogs that I have trained in the past and I am trying to adjust. I hoped to possibly debut him at the Portland double trial in November if his learning curve continues at the same level, but we will wait and see what polish he has a bit closer to the closing date. An older dog that I last trialed there was lucky enough to win Best In Trial (English Bull Terrier) so I dont want to go back and look a dill. I may wait ti'll the new year. Hope to see you around the trial circuit. Is your new dog a lab as well? Appologies to all for getting off topic.

Hi Lab and Poodle I'm glad that your methods have worked for you, but I think we should agree to disagree on the food subject concerning stays. I feel that if you use too many food treats then your dog is performing "tricks", and not working. I don't believe that a dog understands "a better effort", only what is acceptable, or unacceptable. Food is a very powerful enforcer of good as well as bad behavior, and should be used carefully. I think that dogs have a brain in their heads that are quite capable of understanding a simple exercise such as a down stay, if proofed properly. I am all for using food treats as a motivator for repetitive work. Some trainers just can't seem to train without wanting to treat their dogs like a pokie machine at the local pub, but like the pokies, if you refrain from feeding them too much, you will certainly have "money in the bank", and a more honest working relationship with your dog. This is only one man's opinion, and I dont mean to upset or offend.

Hi caninecoach Sorry for the late reply, I thank you for your well wishes.

Hi For a dog who has fear aggression problems, I think the worst thing you could do is take a gamble on walking directly up to strange dogs, especially front on. A better way would be to start off by meeting seasoned obedience club dogs that have no social problems, "top to tail". This is a non threatening way for both dogs to meet and at first keep the meetings quite brief, making sure you reward good behaviour. Avoid any dogs who show signs of dominance ie; tail carried high, staring matches and dogs that lean on your dogs shoulders with their neck etc. Also avoid the goofy adolecent type dogs who may not realize they are upsetting your dog until he is confident with meeting new dogs. If this did not work, I would see a behavioral specialist to properly diagnose your dogs behavior.

Hi I had a simular problem with my first dog and I fixed it by going a few steps backwards to a short leash with thorough proofing. I started by training on as many different grounds as possible in my area (especially besides goal posts etc and later moved on to dropping food treats around where the dog was in a down stay with minor pops of the leash occasionally required until no corrections were needed. This process did not take long. The dog quickly understood that sniffing was unacceptable and the distance was increased and I didn't have any problems with that dog sniffing again. I did however encounter a situation in a trial where one of the dogs broke the "sit stays" and began humping him, which of course pushed him off balance to a failure in the novice ring. What I did realize was that I should have seen that as an obvious situation to proof against (other dogs breaking, not the humping!) and plan to go even further with my latest dog. I am pleased to say that we later won our ring at a Warrnambool trial some years ago because he was the only dog that did not get up during the sit stay. I am a big believer in using food treats to teach dogs to "target" eg teaching dogs focal points used in recall fronts, healing focus and guiding strait sits in the early learning stages. I only use food in the later stages to keep my dog motivated during the boring repedative exercises like recalls & retreives, but it is done sparingly. Some dogs will require more motivation than others with both food or toys but you dont need to become a "Human Pez Dispenser" to get your dog to perform a little bit of work during an easy and laid back life for a few minutes a day! I am not a believer in using food treats for anything to do with stays other than "proofing the no no's". The down stay even more so. Stays would have to be the easiest exercise for a dog to perform because the only thing he has to remember is to "do nothing"! I dont beleive dogs need to be rewarded for doing nothing, and they certainly dont need to be motivated to do them. (although I conceed there will be a rare exception out there somewhere) It concerns me a little during training at clubs on Sundays that dogs simply line up for their stays which most perform well, then everybody goes home happy, only for their dogs to have learned very little for the experience. I am not talking about being a "correction natzi", but rather to gently help the dog to work through his mistake with as little force as possible, and lots of patience. Wrong = Something learned! Perhaps some may disagree.

Hi everyone, new to this forum and would just like to say hello. I have been involved with a few obedience clubs at all levels including instructing and committee level and quickly found out that running a club was a lot more involved than just turning up with your pooch on a Sunday morning. What most club members dont realize is the amount of work/disagreements/paperwork/dummyspits/compromising etc,etc that goes on behind the scenes. While most are willing to turn up to train, most dont want to help out and the only way to change this problem is for the unhappy club members to get themselves into the clubs at commitee/Instructor level and help change them. It has been frustrating over the years to see people leaving clubs because they dont like an instructor and I think that clubs need to address these areas with more bravado (taking in account that they are all volunteers) A lot of these club level problems that occur are because not all of the instuctors in any one club are on the same page with their methods. I Joined one Melbourne club last year as a handler only and was instucted so many different methods of the basics of each exersise through the different class levels that it would have made my head spin if I didn't know any better. I recently obtained a new dog (staffordshire) and found a small club closer to home and plan to trial around late November. He's going great guns with his work and we are just starting to apply the polish to hopfully make him a winner.