huski

The problem with Daisy is that it's also very easy for her to self reward. Scenting is very very rewarding to her and she can do it anywhere. Being exciting enough to get her nose off the ground is not necessarily an easy task. I can get her excited simply by revving her up with my voice and her drive command but like you, that is largely because I have paired that with a food reward and she knows how rewarding training with me can be.

No one is saying that some dogs aren't extremely motivated by praise. Some dogs love to simply work for their handler and bend over backwards for praise. However to assume that can be applied to all dogs, with the same results, is simply short sighted. I use verbal praise with my dog in every training session even when I'm also using food, I also use praise solely when I don't want her in drive and totally excitable. Just because someone uses toys/food doesn't mean they also don't use praise. My dog however is the kind of dog who wouldn't look twice at a person we walked past (with the exception of if they smelt interesting) and couldn't care less if someone wanted to pat her. On the other hand, I have friends dogs who do an instant body wiggle and get incredibly excited if I so much look like I am thinking about patting them.

My understanding with Schutzhund bite work is that the dog sees the sleeve as a toy.

I uploaded my video from this afternoon but my handling looks even worse on YT than it did on the camera

Agreed

Longcoat are you saying that police and security dogs are only trained with praise and corrections or are not ever trained with positive reinforcement? No one here is arguing that punishment or corrections don't have their place. I've not heard of a police dog anywhere in the world trained successfully with purely positive training, but that's not what we're talking about.

Apparently some judges in QLD don't like the hand on the hip. But that's what I tend to do. I think the general rule is your hands can be at your side or at your middle or you can have one on your hip as long as you don't move them (unless giving a signal).

Well I attempted to do an update video of Daisy's heel work this afternoon and had fail after fail - first time the camera fell over. Then the second time a dog got off leash and ambushed us After Daisy got attacked a few weeks ago she's appeared to be ok but this big dog rushing towards her (it wasn't aggressive luckily) made us both nervous Then the third time I attempted to film our heel work I hadn't set the camera up right and we were only on screen for about 20-30 seconds out of 2 minutes 30 FINAL attempt at filming went ok but I just watched the footage back and the grass is sooooo long you can barely see anything :D and my handling was terrible mainly because I got quite nervous after the other dog ran at us, and it walked behind us as we were training and both Daisy and I got nervous So just uploading it to imovie now to see if there is anything I can get off it that is worthwhile uploading to youtube The dog worked quite well though!

Thanks Bedazzled! Will see how she goes retrieving just one

Does anyone have any articles or suggestions on how to train the glove exercise? I got given three gloves the other night and I have no idea what to do with them It is probably the exercise I am least familiar with.

I started training in the '70's Huski in the days when your dog was obedience trained properly you threw your leash away and the dog was motivated to work for you with the only reward system being verbal praise..........we didn't use food at all. It would be foolish to suggest that yesterdays dogs couldn't work, they did brilliantly and better than some of today, no food, no clickers and no leash.............so how was that achieved back then I ask the people who claim without food, toys and clickers that you can't train a dog??? And how many scent hounds did you see working in competition obedience back then? How many have you trained to high levels of reliability? So Uta Bindels who is a world champion and winner of prestigious Schutzhund and IPO comps has unreliable dogs who lack motivation in their work?

You can only use marker words in the ring in between exercises, you can't use them when you are actually competing, can you? Personally I use a marker and release word myself but each to their own, you have highly successful people like Uta Bindels who use clickers and get great results in (Schutzhund) competition, obviously it works for them

People who compete in Schutzhund obedience still train and compete with their dogs in prey drive... they just work on remote rewards. If all dogs who compete and trial must work purely for praise, how do you explain people like Bedazzled who have food trained dogs working successfully at UD levels? How do you explain the number of people who compete successfully with their dogs working in food/prey drive? I actually stewarded at an obedience trial the other night and a woman had her working line GSD there, who she competes with in Schutzhund and decided to also compete with in ANKC obedience. Shock horror - she uses food and a clicker and guess what, the dog won the ring that night! I'm about to start trialling with my dog and (shock horror!) I will be trialling her in food drive. The dog has to be able to sustain their drive for x amount of time and we've spent a reasonable amount of time building that drive so it can be sustained over a length of time. Sure I won't have food on me in the ring, but she'll still be rewarded with food afterward. So you're saying you can get the same level of focus and drive from my scent hound purely from training her with praise? AWESOME - please feel free to come to Brissy and demonstrate. How many scent hounds have you trained or trialled with purely using praise? You must be very good at it.

Then why keep pointing out that it will be an issue for those who trial it's clearly not for the many who do it right. Yes and we all use what works for our dogs the best. It would be impossible to ask my scent hound to work purely for a pat on the head, and get the same result as you do with food. But that assumes all dogs will work equally as well for praise I'm not sure why you keep asking what happens when our pockets "run dry", I've addressed this point at least three times already. My dog doesn't need food rewards to comply with my commands but my expectations when it comes to basic manners or behaviour at home etc and what I expect when I train my dog is different. My dog has a naturally incredibly strong food drive, she does not have a naturally strong pack or play drive in that she will work to the same insane degree with just praise. It's total bullshit to imply that all food or prey driven dogs can work just as well for praise. You're also assuming that if someone trains with food or with a toy, that they aren't also using praise/play as a reward too. I use both food and praise/play to reward and train my dog. If you have dog who works really well for praise that's great! But not all dogs do, and a good trainer recognises what motivates each dog the most will differ from dog to dog. If it's not an argument about using food/toys and not using food/toys then why do you keep saying it's best to wean dogs completely off food or toy rewards and that all our dogs should just work for praise? And if that's the case, then they are being used incorrectly. That's not what you've been saying though. this is not MY assumption, but the statement on the Delta website as well as those that promote the society. I think what MrsD meant was that you appear to assume that the Delta method of positive training is the only method of positive training out there.

That's my experience with the e-collar too. I had the same collar on and couldn't feel anything until around level 15. The dog using it was also working on around level five. When used like that, you can actually see that it is one of the less aversive training tools/methods out there because it's so subtle.

With most dogs diet is trial and error. It can take time to find the perfect food, be that raw or dried or otherwise. I feed a mostly raw diet (Cherry is fed on Eagle Pack Holistic) and my dogs do far better on it than they did on super market dried or super premium dried. There are some super premium brands that my dogs wouldn't do so well on, and others they did well on. Some dogs can eat just about anything and do ok on it, but doing ok and doing best are two different things IMO.

I meant to add, there is a lot of stuff on DOL I couldn't give a crap about reading, but it's a big forum so you will need to wade through what is interesting to you and what isn't.

Which is why there is an off topic forum If you don't want to read the OT stuff, don't go in there.

I'm with you Cos, I see no benefit in removing rewards all together other than the dog now being made to work for nothing. I think it all goes back to the very old style of training and beliefs that the dog MUST obey because you are master and no other reason, stemming from human's inner need to control that which is less superior to us. Agree with both of you

She looks fantastic RS! You must be soooo proud!

What a load of crap! I know schutzhund trainers who work their dogs in prey drive when doing obedience. It would hardly be uncommon! I have no problem with e-collar training, btw Why not use a clicker forever? If you've trained your dog to trial you won't need it in the ring because your dog can work for that amount of time without needing food or reinforcement with the clicker. Most people use clicker training to teach behaviours, unless you stop teaching your dog new things of course clicker trainers will always use clickers. How many dogs who trial today do you think have been trained purely on praise? We all know you can't use food or toys in the ring, yet many trialling dogs are trained successfully with them. Of all the people I know who train in drive, there are many who trial successfully with their dogs and they maintain their drive the entire time they are in the ring without the handler needing food or the prey item on them, because they increase the amount of time the dog can sustain that drive. There is no need to wean your dog off food or prey rewards just because you are trialling. I wouldn't work for no pay, why should my dog? I still don't see the difference between using praise and using food or toy rewards. All are rewarding the dog. If we follow your logic, your dog should be able to work without any praise, too. My dog is trained in food drive and I don't need to stuff food in her face constantly. Still wondering if you think she looks like a dog who is unable to think or work because she's trained with food?? Of course they lessen the time between food rewards... or you'd never get in the trial ring. Doesn't mean you have to eliminate them entirely, though. The reality does not escape me, and if you'd bothered to read my posts, you'd see I addressed this several times already. You're assuming that a dog trained with food rewards never complies to the handler without food being present. As I said earlier, my dog happily complies to commands in every day situations without me needing food. But when we go to training I want her to work in drive, and I expect 110% focus, fast, snappy responses to commands, I want her full of beans and jumping off the walls excited to work. I don't always want her in that high energy state at home. Because you ARE wrong that dogs trained with food are unable to work well in trials, or that they have less reliability, or that they can't think or work - or that ALL dogs can be trained just as successfully, to the same standard as they are with food/toy rewards, with praise. That assumes all dogs are the same and motivated by the same things. You are welcome when you come up to QLD next to get the same work I get out of my dog just with praise I am more than happy to use e-collars or prongs. I have no problem with corrections or punishment. I'm not and never have been a fan of DELTA training, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Longcoat you are welcome to come and train my beagle using strictly praise and get the same drive and focus I get using food. I won't ever wean her off food rewards when we are doing drive training, this doesn't mean I have a dog who only complies to my commands when I have food but that the level of drive and focus I expect when we train in food drive is different to when we are at home or out and about. Many Schutzhund trainers work their dogs in prey drive, do you think they should all be working their dogs purely with praise too? How frustrated do you think a highly prey driven working dog would be with no outlet for that drive?

I would never starve my dog - although being a beagle she is almost always starving - but I would and have fasted her for 24 hours or fed her meal via training. The type of training I do can be pretty high energy and I would always prefer to work her on an empty stomach. Not because she can't work after having a meal, but it's better for her not to. There is nothing cruel about fasting a dog for one meal. Most of the time she has her main meal in the morning and we trainer night time, if I do training in the morning I would do it before I fed her.

I am more concerned about the food trained dogs that a starved for 3 days prior to a training session to generate higher levels of food motivation I agree Angelsun that the more training established without food motivation, the greater the reliability. What about training with food makes a dog unreliable? Food is a reward just as praise is a reward. Just because you train with food does not mean you don't or can't also use praise. Would you expect your dog to work with no reward whatsoever? No food, toys or praise? ETA: Impossible Bedazzled! Don't you know dogs who are rewarded with food are unreliable and don't work well or know how to think?? ;)

RS that is FANTASTIC news!!! Woohoo!! what a great brag Cannot wait to see the video!