huski

Jarrah is awesome MrsD! I don't know how you DWD people do it, it's all way too hard for me

No, but that doesn't stop you from working your dog in prey or food drive in a trial. You just can't have the food or toy on you in the ring.

This is very true and the sign of a well 'proofed' dog. During many of the classes I had in Canada, during the sit/down stay exercise, I would drop chairs on the floor, toss tennis balls and leave dog cookies laying around. With those same distractions littering the floor, we would go into recalls.....a properly trained dog will get its reward from the handler, not what is under foot or laying around. What is that reward? Well it's different for every dog and yes, sometimes it's food....but it's hard to not let a dog self reward in regards to food if there is food laying all over the place. You don't start training the dog with food littering the floor, though. You work up to that when you know the dog is at a stage where it doesn't see that food or those toys as attainable. I can put the entire bag of treats I have on me - usually filled with things like fish, chicken, sausage etc - on the ground but my dog doesn't even think twice about working away from it because she knows the reward comes from me and that the best and easiest way to get it is to comply with my commands. I agree praise should be given in quantity to our dogs and for some dogs praise can be the ultimate reward. However, I'd like to see you take my extremely scent driven hound, wean her completely off food rewards and get her working purely on praise with the same drive and focus I get when I work her in food drive. Why you wouldn't want to use the dog's naturally dominant drive to your benefit is beyond me. I don't know anyone who uses the reward properly who has ever run into that problem firstly through training with remote rewards (so the dog learns the reward is not always on your person but something you might release it to) and keeping the delivery of the reward unpredictable so the dog has no idea when it's going to get it. And I've been training my dog in food drive for over a year now and I've never had problem with the food reward losing it's value. I often use the same food (luncheon roll) and it has never become "not so high anymore". That's because our training isn't just about getting a food reward, but a chemical reward, the release of endorphins the dog gets when it gets drive satisfaction and the pack/play reward she gets from training with me. But how is having poor timing or rewarding for the wrong thing reflective of anything but the handler's lack of skill? I'm not following your logic - are you saying that someone who rewards with praise can't have bad timing or that it's not positive? Because I can't see the difference between a dog working in pack/play drive being rewarded with praise and a dog working in food drive being rewarded with food. Many trainers DO use food or toy rewards correctly and have great timing. I'd like to hear from anyone whose seen my dog working in real life tell me that she's not thinking or working purely because she works in food drive ;) Here she is learning about scent discrimination. She picked the exercise up in a matter of days. She is motivated largely by the food reward I'm using. Would you call this a dog who is not thinking or working? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joVEZVF14-s Now it's a terrible example of MY handling skills, but I am curious how anyone could infer my dog is neither working nor thinking because I am rewarding her with food. I can't comment re Delta because I have limited exposure to their training and methods and none have been particularly impressive.

How common would it be for a dog to walk up to a kid and completely without reason bite them on the face? Another one wondering why these kids weren't being supervised, and why on Earth an 11 year old was walking a strong breed of dog on it's own

Depends on how advanced the dog is in its training I guess - I know of dogs trained in prey drive who will chase after live prey if left to their own devices, but wouldn't give it a second glance if training and their owner can call them off live prey because the dog knows that compliance with commands is the best and quickest way to get drive satisfaction.

Thanks so much for the vids, TSD! Ziggy is such a spunky boy I don't know anything about agility or jumping so you both looked good to me :D Can't believe it is your first time! ETA: Now we need to see some obedience videos ;)

Stephen Lindsay, during his recent seminar in Sydney, put it nicely about reinforcement/rewards... in order for a reinforcer (reward) to work, it must exceed the dog's expectations. Therefore if the distraction is greater than the reward, in the case of stock chasing, then the above statement is not entirely correct and will not work. It is not the potential for reward that is going to work, but rather if the reward violates the dog's expectation....is higher than the dog ever anticipated. Thinking out loud here....Could be dog is working for the potential for a higher level of reward but if we kept increasing, then it becomes predictable and no longer exceeds expectations. Sometimes it's difficult to find a reward greater than the distraction especially prey driven distractions. What if you are training the dog in prey drive? Then you have the prey reward in your hand.

MM, some dogs are more prey than food drive and really enjoy working for a toy. Micha is very food driven but I would say he's slightly more prey driven. He works really nicely for his new iSqueak! Daisy likes to tug and she doesn't mind chasing things if she's in the mood but she is far more food driven and won't even notice toys if there is food involved.

Barkbusters aren't dog behaviourists though... Snap, was about to post the same thing. They aren't even qualified trainers. They are people who buy a franchise and have a couple of weeks training with the company before going out and "helping" clients "fix" their dogs.

Totally agree with you there, Cos! I know some people don't like the term balance but I think extremity either way is detrimental.

I don't see why there is a problem or stigma associated with using food in training I will always use a food reward for Daisy because I train her in food drive. There's no way on the planet you could get the same level of work out of her simply using praise. Could I still get her to sit or comply to other commands without food? Of course, I don't use food for day to day stuff and I still expect compliance when we aren't training. I don't however expect the same level of 110% focus, bouncing off the walls to comply with my command, adrenaline pumping, fast, sharp enthusiasm I do when we are training. I think there is a big difference between food exchange (shoveling food into the dog's mouth) and food drive (getting a dog to really work for the reward). You can really see the difference in a dog who is basically just eating the treat because it was presented to them and a dog who would walk over hot coals to get a tiny piece of food. I don't mean to come across as someone whose anti corrections or punishment because I definitely am not, but I'd hate for anyone to get the impression that if you use food in training you are bribing your dog or you're a weak trainer or permissive.

Well, that depends on your definition of purely positive training. I personally hate the term 'purely positive' as I think purely positive training is impossible. I know dogs who are extremely reliable in very high levels of distraction through methods like drive training and without being given any serious corrections for "disobedience". When a dog is in drive they are switched off to the distractions around them. Something that may be distracting to them when they aren't in drive is non existent when they are switched on and working in drive. You can also build a dog's value or drive for a reward over time. What could be more of a consequence to a driven dog than withdrawal of their drive reward? If the level of distraction is too great for your dog, why does that automatically mean the dog requires a correction? Isn't that a reflection on your lack of proofing or inability to motivate your dog?

Depends on the "team", as with any method of dog training. I think you're in the wrong class, if you're not open minded about it then you might as well go somewhere else. In answer to your question (statement, whatever), it doesn't take long at all if you know what you're doing. I have had everyone at our club coming up to me simply amazed by the progress Berri made in SUCH a short period of time, I think I'd been going for 2 months when half a dozen people asked me if I was trailing, and why not. These are people who had been working their dogs with check chains for pretty much forever and Berri had over taken them. I went to a positive workshop on the weekend and the people there had so many "wow" moments as they got their dogs to do things they had never been able to do before. I don't (well, rarely - I am human after all!) say no to my dogs, we have a great relationship. They have to work for everything they want and need, food, getting in and out of the house/car, going for walks, play etc. I establish my authority over them in a way that doesn't involve saying "no", and they respect me for that. Berri sounds pretty amazing Jeanne! You should post some videos of him in the youtube or training talk thread

I always found the quickest way to stop jumping up is to ask for an alternative behaviour (i.e. a sit) and reward with attention/praise (not food) - a dog jumps up because they learn how that is how they get attention. I taught my dogs the best way to get attention was to sit. Seemed to work for me at least! When it comes to obedience training my number one requirement is that I have a dog who really enjoys it and is enthusiastic about it. That's not to say I am purely positive or won't use corrections because I totally think they have their place, but I do think we shouldn't lose sight of how to motivate our dogs and that the number one reason we should do dog sports like obedience is so the dog can have a good time and enjoy it. I think back to how I used to train Daisy - I always used food, but I would also correct her when her nose went to the ground (which was pretty often) as per our instructor's instructions. Heelwork was pretty damn boring for her which was why she was putting her nose to the ground in the first place! Once I learnt how to motivate her properly, it became far easier to keep her nose off the ground, because training with me was far more interesting.

I'm not saying a dog can't have both, I still walk my dog. But I think she gets a lot more out a training session. I was just using it as an example of ways that we can give our dogs heaps of mental/physical stimulation without leaving the house. Does it make me a bad owner if I train with my dog every day but don't walk her every day? If the compulsory dog walking laws came in then according to the law the answer would be yes. And what if the owner is not physically capable of walking their dog for an hour or two every day? What if the dog is not physically capable of walking every day?

There needs to be more acknowledgment of this I believe. There are some breeds who when in then hands of dickheads, are more likely to end up with aggression problems. I agree, but even so, it is still entirely the responsibility of the owners to manage these dogs. In that instance, it is deed (irresponsible owner failing to control their dog) not breed.

Personally, it doesn't bother me if the dogs are well behaved and seated outside. The Powerhouse's Watt cafe at New Farm has always been very welcoming of dogs, I wonder if they still are? Might have to take Daisy down there next time the markets are on to see if we can still sit there.

Totally agree with Steve - my beagle is pretty happy and she would leave if the door was open if she got a whiff of something interesting out there! That's not reflective of her happiness or the enjoyment she gets from living in my house, it's the instinct she was born with.

QLD is not a dog friendly state. Daisy enjoys the picnics at DOL meets. Especially when donuts are provided

Not sure how rewarding a dog for good behaviour makes it a spoilt little shit? I think for many dogs removing a reward is corrective/punishment. My dog certainly finds it unpleasant! How odd, it does sound like the class was a bit all over the place. I don't want anyone but me treating my dog when we are training and I would be cranky if the instructor took it upon themselves to treat my dog for doing the wrong thing. It doesn't sound dissimilar to the DELTA puppy school class we went to. It was easily the worst puppy school or training class I've ever been to. The class went for over an hour (often close to two hours) with the baby puppies having to be tied to the chairs on a short leash and forced to sit on their mats and "be calm" the entire time. I had a 12 week old beagle pup who thought this was ridiculous and getting her to sit calmly for more than five minutes was a big achievement! The instructor kept feeding her pigs ear after pigs ear and by the end of the class Daisy was like a kid on too much red cordial. The instructor also told us never to correct our dogs or tell them no etc, funnily enough she was happy to recommend head collars as a positive tool Was easily the most useless class I've ever been to and did nothing for my very strong willed, energetic beagle pup. Having said that I've done the hour long bash the paddock obedience classes too and I won't do those again. It really turned my dog off heel work and constantly correcting her for scenting was not productive in the long run. Instead harnessing her drive and using it in a productive way gave me a dog who was way more switched on and eager to work. You need to use a method that's most suitable for the dog, people who train in drive don't often use corrections when developing drive because you don't want to lose drive or lessen it.

I agree that pulling or lunging on the leash does not always equate with aggression, my beagle can lunge on the leash if she picks up a scent and she is far from aggressive. I do think that a dog pulling on the leash and lunging to get to greet another dog can be bad manners in doggy language and some dogs can find it intimidating or rude for a dog to be lunging at it even in eagerness. And being on the other end of the leash, pulling on the lead is my biggest pet hate (pardon the pun) as an owner. I hate having my armed pulled out of its socket so I spend a lot of time training my dogs to have nice leash manners. That's just my preference though, some people don't seem to be as bothered by it.

I used the Shirley Chong method. Or at least started out using it. Daisy had no interest in the dumbell whatsoever so I shaped the entire thing. She did pick it up within a day or two and is now very enthusiastic about the dumbell and doing a formal retrieve. She has a nice hold too.

Yep exactly, Daisy is the first dog I'm training in obedience and it is a huge learning curve! I am very lucky I have such a forgiving dog

Thanks She's three years old. Wish I had started off the right way with training from day one because I am sure she would be further along in her training than she is now, but oh well, you live and learn, we are on the right track now and I will get it right with the next dog ;)

I am TERRIBLE with my hands... I am the worst fidgeter ever especially when I am nervous (which I wasn't in the clip above so you can imagine how much worse it is when I am nervous). I did realise I stepped into her, someone pointed it out to me a little while ago and I am trying to be really conscious of it. I think I've improved with it in heel work, but I still have lapses Although today I realised I was doing it as I was doing it and in my head I was like 'you just stepped into her you nong!'