huski

So glad he is home now Dis :D Poor little fella

I did the sit/stay thing last time Jed and I think it made her more scared. I do feel for her and I can only imagine how terrifying it must feel being that afraid of something. I will definitely be trying to avoid her at all costs, but if I have to pass her in the future, I will try putting myself between her and Daisy whilst putting Daisy in a down stay - a beagle lying on the ground should hopefully not look terribly threatening!

I don't think a dog in drive is impossible to characterise at all, I just think it is difficult to discuss over the net, and far easier to talk about in depth in person.

Okay... obviously the wires have been crossed here somewhere... I was just trying to understand where you were coming from. My bad.

Bedazzled, what does drive mean to you? How do you define and understand it? I can see a difference bewteen a dog who is motivated and a dog who is working in drive. I see it in trials or at training all the time. I see it in my dogs. Drive, to me, is a state of mind, it involves the dog going through a motor pattern in response to a stimulus, the end result producing a chemcial reward (endorphins). I think Seita's earlier post really articulated what drive is to me. There are positive drives (pack, prey, food) and negative drives (i.e. defense drive). I have seen a dog trained in food drive look the same as a dog trained in prey drive. At the end of the day, how they got there doesn't change the fact they are both still working in drive and can both achieve the same type of intensity. To an observer, does it matter what positive drive the dog is working in? Not IMO, when it can produce the same result. Like I said earlier I think there is only so far this discussion can go via the written word... it is so much easier to convey in real life

This sounds a tad contradictory to me...haven't humans "modified" wolves through the process of domestication to turn them into the different shapes and sizes that we see in the "pure" breeds we have today? The process of domestication required that only those individuals with placid natures who showed less fear of people were selectively bred together. Species (including us and dogs) continue to evolve in order to adapt to a changing environment. Nothing stays the same forever!!! And NO!!!! I am NOT AGAINST PURE BREEDS...I LOVE them and I've owned them all my life PF is referring to those who think that we should get rid of the so called problematic or less desirable traits in our dogs, like a beagle's drive to scent, to make them a generic soft tempered ideal family pet. These people want to change the very things about our breeds that make them what they are. I don't want one generic dog that is the "ideal Australian pet" because I don't believe there is one dog that could possibly suit everyone. I don't want the very things that make my breed what it is to be bred out because it makes them easier for people who aren't suited to them in the first place to handle. I don't see my beagle's drive to scent as a problem, but an excellent demonstration on selective breeding and an example of her ability to fulfill her original purpose. Not to mention the fact that each purebred has been designed and bred for a purpose - it wasn't just dogs who had placid natures and less fear of people who were bred from when developing each breed. There are many breeds where placidity is not a or the most desired trait. I would suggest that in most cases a dog's working ability was by far the most prized factor when it came to breeding. I don't want all purebreds to be the same, do you?

Excellent post PF and I totally agree.

I didn't say my beagle has perfect recall (although she does when we are training) - I said that I have no problem keeping her nose off the ground. And the reason I said that was because Kate the vet said that once a beag's nose goes to the ground they are all but deaf and that it's their desire to scent that stops them from being the perfect family pet. Total rubbish - they ARE the perfect family pet for the RIGHT family. A family who is suitable to own a scent hound. I get sick of hearing beags are untrainable when they are in fact very trainable Their instinct to scent is not a "problem" - it's what they were bred to do.

Jesus christ that is sickening, some people are bloody feral - who could do that to a dog?

I'm sure they have similar issues to the pug/beagle crosses that have become a very popular DD We should be protecting and promoting the breeds we already have, without trying to take away exactly what makes them the breed they are.

On Kate Schoeffel's website she states the reason she is breeding a beagle/cav cross is because a beagle's instinct to scent is the only thing stopping them from being a perfect family pet. She is cross breeding them with cavs because (in her words) Cavs are a toy pet breed wih no hunting instinct at all (tell that to the energetic toy mad cavs I see in agility/obedience!). Apparently this will create a beagle like dog with no or a seriously reduced scent drive. How she thinks she can remove an instinct that has been bred into the breed for centuries is beyond me, but she's still aiming to retain their ears albeit with a slightly shorter snout - she guarantees they will be "totally non aggressive" - obviously she doesn't consider the role socialisation and training play in our dog's behaviour. It makes me sick in the stomach to think that she wants to remove the very instinct and drive that makes the breed what it is. Everything about a beagle is there to help it scent, the shape and structure of it's nose, the long floppy ears, their stubborness and drive. Why buy a beagle if you don't want to own a scent hound? She also said that once a beagle gets their nose to the ground they become deaf to all commands - I know a few beags who do obedience including my own and we have no problem keeping our dogs noses off the ground.

Yeah it's a bit frustrating. It's not too bad for me because I recognise her and avoid her at all costs but I worry about what would happen if someone who didn't know her walked by with their dog and their dog leaned over for a pat or tried to sniff her. I don't think that a dog deserves to be hit with a metal pole for leaning towards her while being calm and friendly.

Yes that's exactly what I was talking about. In the first instance I described in the OP, Daisy was not attempting to sniff the woman but moved in front of me (still on a loose leash) to sniff something on the ground. It was a very small movement. Even though she wasn't trying to sniff the woman she freaked out and raised the pole like she was going to hit Daisy. I pulled her back instantly - I don't know what would have happened if I hadn't. Anyone who has met Daisy knows she's not that people orientated and has very little interest in people when we are out and about (unless you have food) - she is not one of those super friendly dogs who wants a pat from everyone we come across.

Nannas obviously I do my best to avoid this woman as much as I can. When I called the council I said EXACTLY what I said in my OP here and more. I went into detail and asked them their opinion on several scenarios including if my dog attempted to sniff her when we walked past her. My dog isn't perfect and I want to know where I stand on the off chance that my dog got too close to her (by her standards) in a friendly manner without touching her and this woman hit her. According to the council unless my dog is aggressive or unleashed the woman has no right to hit her simply for walking past or acting in a calm friendly manner. I asked the council word for word what would happen if my dog tried to sniff her or approached her in a friendly manner. How is attempting to sniff someone they are walking past unfriendly? You'll note in my OP I said - "tried to sniff her or got too close to her (without touching her)". And what law is this when you are in a public space, on a narrow foot path and next to a busy road and you cannot avoid walking past someone? How are you to know how everyone defines their personal space? What would you do, if you were walking along a busy road on a narrow foot path and someone was walking by you - do you wave your stick at them and demand they get out of your way, even though they have no where to go? You have NO legal right to hit myself or my dog with a stick if we are simply walking past you. You'll note that the last time I walked by this woman I walked up a drive way to avoid her and she still raised the pole and screamed and carried on. If my dog is not on the foot path, in a sit/stay at my heel, and leans her neck forward to sniff this woman or hell, sniff something near her (not close enough to touch her and not breaking the stay) I guarantee you, the police would be on my side if the woman hit her. I would ALWAYS do everything my power to keep my dog away from this woman and out of danger but I wanted to know where I stood in case something did happen. I resent your accusation that I would intentionally put my dog in danger It's your perogative to feel you can hit any dog that approaches you with a stick but you need to be prepared for the consequences if the dog was leashed and not aggressive. ETA: Just how close to this woman do you think I was? On both occasions I have described in the OP we were simply walking past her on the foot path, and on both occasions I moved off the foot path and as far away from her as possible.

I just called the Brisbane City Council and spoke to them about this issue. They said that the only requirements from me, is that my dog is leashed and doesn't act aggressively/try to attack someone. There are no guidelines about the distance the dog should be from another person, or anything thats says your dog cannot approach a person in a friendly manner when walking past them. They said that this woman or anyone who hit or hurt my dog would not have a leg to stand on unless the dog was attempting to attack her. They also told me that if she did hit my dog, that it would be a police manner because she is causing bodily harm. So, technically, while I agree we should have our dogs under effective control and respect others personal space, you should be careful about whose dogs you threaten and hit with that stick of yours. If they aren't acting aggressively and you injure their dog it is a police matter and NOT the fault of the owner.

Yeah but she's walking in the direction I just came from. If I changed direction, I'd just be walking back the way I came, only ahead of her - how would I get to the park then? There's no side street I can walk down, which is why last time I walked up a drive way to be as far away as possible but it didn't work and she still freaked out.

Thanks TSD. I hadn't thought of putting Daisy in a down. I will try this next time Unfortunately, I tend to run into her on a fairly busy road which means I can't easily get across it. If it was a quiet street, I definitely would! ETA: I would walk a different way but going down this street is unavoidable if I want to get to my local park where I train Daisy. I understand that she's terrified and that she's probably been attacked by dogs before. However, I want to know where I stand in terms of what happens if she hits my dog for doing nothing but walking past her, sniffing or showing a fleeting interest in her.

I've thougt about that Amps and I might give the council a call just to see where I stand. I don't know her name or where she lives, so it would be hard to report her. I should add she doesn't appear to speak English so talking to her would be difficult.

There is a lady who walks around our neighbourhood every day who is terrified of dogs. She walks with a big metal pole in her hand and raises it if dogs come near her. I try to avoid her as best I can, but sometimes our paths cross and we have to walk by each other. No matter what I do with Daisy when we walk past, she freaks out. I walked in between her and Daisy the other day and Daisy crossed in front of me to sniff something. She wasn't pulling on the leash, or moving to be near the lady. I grabbed her and pulled her back knowing that this woman had a big pole but she freaked out and raised it like she was going to hit Daisy. Thankfully I pulled her away in time. Just a couple of days ago we walked past her again, so this time I thought I would walk part way up a drive way to clear the foot path so we would be as far from this woman as possible. I put Daisy in a sit in heel position to make sure she wouldn't go any where. The woman freaked out and raised the pole, screamed and ran past us as fast as possible. Now I try to be a responsible dog owner and I don't want my dogs to frighten anyone. But this women's fear of dogs is so extreme that I'm worried she will hit my dog simply for walking past her. I know we need to have our dogs under effective control even when they are leashed, but where do you draw the line? Who would be to blame if she walked past a friendly dog who tried to sniff her or got too close to her (without touching her) and she hit it? Daisy is relatively well behaved and is never too interested in the people we pass, but I know there are lots of friendly dogs walked around our neighbourhood who are more excitable around people.

Not sure where you are in WA, but Kathy Kopelis McLeod is a behaviourist who comes highly recommended over there and she also owns Siberians, http://www.kathysdogtraining.com.au/

I don't get it....they are BEAGLES!! Whats wrong with the drive to scent - they are SCENThounds...am I missing something?? Why would anyone want to change a Beagle??? Apparently their drive to scent is what stops them being the "perfect family pet" ... but that is getting off topic

Not just labradoodles but at least six other DD crosses.

Kate's the puppy farmer vet, isn't she? The one who breeds "labradoodles" and so on. She also breeds beagle/cav crosses with the aim of eradicating the beagle's drive to scent

I agree that still images are really hard to use an examples, which is why I just posted videos instead (however basic they are ).

I don't think talking about what is mostly funny stories about people misidentifying our dogs on a dog fourm is "precious".