Arya

Okay, is this something she is stuck with permanently? Maybe better to wait until she loses the limp and do some physio if not. BUT if she is fine, if I were you I'd just get a vet letter and explain the situation if you are questioned you can produce the letter. Maybe your vet feels she now needs to work to build up the muscles? I'd just get a letter if she is okay.

I'm presuming that the Rotti Club require proof of vaccinations when joining. Does anyone know if they accept titre test results in lieu of vaccinations?

Sorry Sonic, I don't know. Pop down and ask though, everyone is so friendly.

My experience is that here in SE suburbs we are lucky quite a few really good clubs around

Hi Alanglen,

it's good that you've found a club that suits you, and very nice of Arva to refer you to it. I think we're quite lucky in our wide choice of local clubs.

I can't comment on the black labrador and handler in question, because I didn't see it, but really I see nothing wrong in tracking a beginner dog in a collar. If I don't have a harness handy, I'll track them without it....sometimes even off-lead depending on what aspect I'm training for. It's all training.

I guess if you were heavy-handed, or your dog pulled like a steam engine, it wouldn't be a good idea but mine are all very gentle dogs.

Best of luck with your dogs' training.

Barbara B

Hi all, I totally agree Barbara. In Sch. tracking is usually done on a collar (though can use a harness) and not on a harness. I have a harness for ANKC tracking and when training, I will sometimes put my dog on the collar because for some reason, this increases her drive over the harness (the reverse of what I see in a lot of dogs that go into 'pull drive' lol). A slip chain on deadring should be okay I would have thought too, unless the dog pulls hard. And I have trained my pup to free track off lead, so minimum interference with her. The deal is, you stick to the scent trail you get the reward (I use footstep and food drops to train). You go off the scent trail there's no pay dirt so not worth it. Free tracking pups great for this I have discovered lol.

Cheers

Arya

I would also like to say that I'm a member of rotti club even though I don't own a rotti and I train there Wed nights and it is far and away the friendliest club and our instructor is the best trialling instructor I've ever seen at work and I have been an Ob instructor for ages myself in the past. The rotti club have it right - a mix of motivational training with some more trad methods if necessary but they are very very good down there. Really love it!!! Very grateful they let other breeds join, they are great.

Does anyone know anything about Frankston obedience school?

I was tossing up between Western Port and Frankston as I live close to both.

The last time I checked it out, about 3 years ago, it was still very traditional. But I'm going to check it out in a couple of weeks to see

if it's changed. I really don't want to go that often so it's a toss up between frankston and westernport for me.

I can assure you that Frankston is now NOT AT ALL very traditional. I know, I go there all the time as well as other clubs. They are open to all sorts of methods and food is very very welcome in the classes, for instance. However, the issue is that it is very small trialling community there so that there is not a lot of help for triallers if you don't have outside help as the few of us there either do, or don't actually need. It is a good, friendly club though wtih non-traditional growing and growing. As I said in an earlier post though, I know a lot of Westernport people too and they are lovely and non-trad too.

Also, when a dog is man trailling, doesn't it gather scent from every available source - air (wind), surrounding vegetation like bushes, any objects going, water molecules in the area, ground scent/crushed vegetation and bugs under the footprints and also, personal scent molecules left along the trail? Not just crushed ground. :rolleyes: (this is a great topic!)

Sorry forgot to add that I believe it is both because Sch dogs are able to indicate articles dropped buy the track layer.

Therefore they must have the scent of the track layer to be able to distinguish the article.

Hang on, in ANKC tracking the dogs must also indicate articles dropped by the track layer. They are generally socks, carried about or worn by the track layer. There is one at the start post and then progressively, as tracks get harder for the titles, a number on the track. The dog must indicate a certain number. This can be done by dropping on the article, as in Sch. or by simply pausing and sniffing it.

In Sch. how is the dog able NOT to follow personal scent? Personal scent molecules must be present on the track, for the dog to identify the articles, unless it is a known track layer. Plus, a certain number of personal scent molecules would be present for some time, even after the initial fifteen minutes or so when they are strongest.

Here's what I think. I think it's the way the dogs are taught and the cues the dog picks up at the commencement of the track. Sch. for instance, starts to one side of the start flag. In ANKC, the track starts in front of the start pole. The dog will read this cue. The whole atmosphere is different too. So they just go bugger this, I will air scent too. it is just my guess but I can't explain it other way. I don't think it can be explained by lack of personal scent. In ANKC Track 6 the track is aged for minimum 90 minutes max 180 minutes so there isn't a lot of personal scent left. What do others think? Could it be the cues the dog receives that changes the way it tracks, the terrain, what??? It is interesting!

Jeff, maybe you can answer this better? When I teach my dog to track I teach her to track Schutzhund style, and she does this 'reasonably' well. She is getting better. But when I put her on an ANKC track out in the bush she does a lot more casting about and moves a lot faster and goes into a different style always but still gets there just not beautifully accurately the way Sch. should be.

My thoughts would be teach the dog to track, not man trail. Then the dog will still find the person at the end of the track by using ground scent to a fuller advantage and still air scent. A better search dog, in other words. Just a thought.

Maybe you could also look up the Swiss Search and Rescue dog teams. I don't know a lot about them but believe they do this sort of work. Think that's what they are called. They are in Australia.

Man trailling is big with law enforcement bloodhounds from the little I know of it :rolleyes:

Also, if you are training for focus with a GSD try patterning onto a tug toy or ball which you may find more effective. Just a thought

Okay, yep, you use what to my dogs is quite high value. The all time favourite is... wait for it... SPAM!!! Get a tin of spam but put it in the fridge first cos it is so fatty it goes a bit squishy. But spam is fatty and salty and dogs love it. Small cubes, very small and feed lots of small so they think they get more. The other is boiled liver. I boil mine up on the bbq outside to avoid the smell and don't overcook it so it goes rubbery, just keep it nice and soft and moist. Yukky but effective.

Thank fat and salt. It gets em every time.

I have met people from Westernport who are very nice and they seem good trainers. It is at KCC Park too which I reckon is a bonus if you plan to trial as that kind of makes it your 'home ground'. I have heard Berwick is very good for Agility and I know Croydon is super at both Obedience and Agility. Hope this helps

Thanks Arya! Hm, that's a hard one. I would have loved to get some tracking titles with him but my partner wants to use him for mantrialing with his job. Not sure what to do now...

Hey why not teach him to track and he'll still find the person at the end of the track. Does your partner work in security? A tracker dog will find a person no worries and as I said, out on the track in ANKC they spend a certain amount of time casting about and air scenting anyway. It is not as precise as Schutzhund tracking. Check out some YouTube videos of Sch. tracking and see if you can find others and you will see what I mean. It all depends on what your partner wants to use the dog for I guess.

Have a look at any Bernhard Flinks DVDs you can get hold of too. His method of drive training is a really great one, I thought. And yes, the Blabanov. Great stuff.

Hi Everyone,

Here's a topic where i might be able to offer some help Tracking... when talking true ground tracking you are talking about the dog following a combination of personal scent of the tracklayer and ground scent from crushed ground where the tracklayer has walked. A really good, accurate tracker in Schutzhund sticks right on the track, nose to the ground, does not air scent and the idea is not to cast about but to stick straight. In practice, in ANKC tracking the dog can be taught like this but from what I've seen and what I've experienced with my own dog, who will track both disciplines, the dog air scents to a degree and casts about to a degree too.

I personally would not try to teach a dog I wanted to track well to man trail. I also would think that although it is possible to teach a man trailing dog to ground scent, the default when the dog is drivey and excited on the track would be to lift the head and air scent, gather personal scent from the surrounds not just the track.

My advice: depending on what you want to do with your dog, if you want to go for tracking titles ever, stick to proper tracking and forget man trailing. Or teach man trailing just for fun and not worry if you are never going to want to learn to track accurately.

All good and all good fun, whichever way you do it!!!

Are you sure you are not being..........um........too mummy? Most women are, including me.

Sit means sit. Stay means stay. Only you and highly regarded people/trainers who know your dog can really make suggestions.

I would start being a bit firmer, IF APPLICABLE.

Lablover, I am a sucker for my dog but no way!!! I have tried being firmer but in this instance it creates total mental collapse. This dog has major mental blowouts, really! It can happen from something like a stay. It can happen from overexcitement. It can happen from lots of distraction. It is not good to watch and a temperament fault I don't like to see in a dog. Otherwise she is a fantastic working dog. She is no angel at all and I will correct her and firmly too, if she is out of order. But in this instance, it is shocking lack of nerve. One little incident.... not even that stressful to most dogs but she has a major blowout in the head! I have had to turn into Einstein to train this dog, it gives me the pip sometimes but hey, I have learnt so much and love her to bits anyways so all good

Okay, here's a further two cents worth from me LOL I use the word 'yes' as the marker and then a reward - food, tug, whatever. I then will use the word 'good' in the middle of an exercise like heeling to tell the dog that all is going well but the exercise is not finished. I'm not too technical, I just go with what works for my dogs. And that's what works. BUT... and here's a good one. Dogdude, how about your facial expression or body position too in the ring! I have found that another CR that has been installed as a release for my dog just by itself is simply how I use my body. So, say you want a good straight sit. Try this... it's interesting to see. Forget the 'yes' or the clicker. Just try this. Keep nice and straight as if heeling along formally. Then stop, your dog sits (assuming we are talking about trialling and OB here). You get a straight sit, just the way you like. So release the dog... NOT with a click or word. Instead, release your own body. Smile, drop your shoulders, move out of position informally. An experienced dog sees this as a CR and will look for the reward directly after. I have tried it with my dog, other dog too. It is so. You need nothing. No click. No word. Try it with distance control too. Stand the dog up. Drop the dog at distance. Release your body. The dog does. There are so many subtle 'cheats' that are not cheats at all. They are you and your dog understanding each other.

Firstly she is only very young so this is normal for behaviour to drop in and out and for confusion to occur. Just relax, enjoy and go with the flow :D Because of your good foundation training with the clicker and treat if she does go off as she changes and grows mentally, she will come back to it fairly quickly. Offering the drop like that, or any other behaviour that the dog knows it can do well is called 'superstitious behaviour'. When they are unsure of what you want, they pull something out of the bag and hope for the best LOL. Hey don't we humans do this too sometimes? My dog 'speaks' when this happens. Or offers a paw. What you need to do is simply ignore completely. Do not correct as the dog is trying to learn what you want. Just ignore. Be careful. No facial expression. Nothing. Give NOTHING that could be misconstrued as a reward, even a 'oh you are a funny, silly billy' or anything cos it looks cute. Just gently sit the dog back up and try again. Keep training sessions extremely short for a young pup. Dont train all your new exercises in one session. (You may know this, am just repointing it out in case you don't) And watchyour timing. Are you sure you are capturing the exact behaviour you want by clicking at the exact time the dog offers the paw, or partially offers what you want and you are working towards the desired goal? This is why I like my voice in preference to the mechanical clicker. My voice is quicker.... for me, that is. For you, it's up to you what you find best. WHen you charge the clicker now the dog knows it, don't do it too much. It becomes almost like freebies that way. Just enough to get the dog going.

Hope all that helps!!!

And thanks everyone for your help it is much appreciated :D

At what point does Tess move in the stays eg as you are walking away, 1min into the stay....?

Hmm - thinking outside the square - give Tess a week off - no stays at all - continue your other training - introduce some new UD or UDX things - like sitting in the box or between cones - teach her to jump on a table like in agility or to touch a target and then after a week go back to group stays insight (but with the dogs a tad further away than what they would be in a trial) - I would start by practising walking away about turning and then going straight back to her - working your way to being able to walk right across the other side of the oval (with the other handlers) - this will take a couple of minutes anyway, so you are in fact increasing the time she is sitting there, (but you are still insight) Make sure as you are walking away you don't turn to look at her. Each time you walk back to her and reward and tell her how smart she is, break the exercise off and have a play with your hose pipe.

If she drops or breaks from the stay - I don't think I would be repositioning her as this is giving her a second chance, I would be putting her quietly back in the car, closing the door for a couple of minutes and then getting her out again and trying again - but at a lesser distance and with the other dogs further away from me.

Thanks Ptolomy! It is a bit of a disaster really as she cries and moves the second we all walk away. Well, she did but not at the rotti club! She sat them there but it was indoors, totally different surroundings to where the disturbance to her stays occurred. I have indeed given her two days off stays so far and will give her another couple in the hope to kind of 'clear her mind' - except at rotti club tomorrow night. She knows all UD (was so proud on weekend at club comp got thru the whole ringwork and only missed a jump in box and directed jumping which she does know well but there you go. What a great girl!) I will do a lot of what you said with the going right back to her and rewards the car idea is great too. I have been doing sit and drop on the move for BH too and want to start some of UDX stuff too for Friends of Obedience nights next summer. I would love to trial both UDX and UD with her I know it is rarely done but Ian Woollard the guy who is UDX expert here in Vic says it can be done :D

Same as you said LP, I will also go with the toy and I have been laying a track behind her. My thoughts on this is tracking requires independant thought from her 'without mum beside her' kind of thing and she loves it, absolutely adores tracking. So the reward of the short circular track behind her is on her mind. I thought to do that for the sits and ball or two hoses for the downs. A judge at Croydon (who was that again LP he was such a lovely older man and even remembered to remove his hat for the stands for exam and was SO nice and courteous... not that they all aren't but he was extra nice I thought) said to rub my hand on the ground in front of her in the downs so she could have a bit of my scent to calm her as I walked away too.

We will get there. She has blossomed so much. I am so happy with her even though she is not doing her stays yet. I can't believe my scaredy dog is loving the work so much now. She is a joy to work in and out of trials now for the most part!!!

Thinking about what could help but in the mean time, I just realised who you are! As it must have been you in our class at RCV on wed!!! Will you be coming every week?

If you think it would help we could do a few more stays before and after classes, and I'm sure there would be others who would do it too

Oh Shoemonster, this would be great!!! Thank you so much!!! Yep I will be coming every week I loved it, think it is a really great training session. I get there a bit late though as I have Sch. first though my dog doesnt work much before I come I have to be there for a bit. But will be there each week :D Love to meet you!

Heather

Sounds like your girl has so much potential Arya!

One question for you - what do you do when she breaks the stay?

This is a good point SD. Of necessity because of where it has happened I have had to RETURN to her. Just what she wants!!! So this is why I withdrew her. I don't want failures that indicate to her she gets me back if she breaks. Frustrating AAGH!

In Sch. dogs are not meant to bounce thru the heeling either but as it is a points deduction not huge and taken into the overall context it depends on what is gained or lost by trying to correct this. It is often seen with extremely high drive Malinois that have trouble hanging on to their drive. This is where I have seen it. My dog can heel both ways, with static hand or with regular hand movements. But the head position and body position I try to keep same for both. Head turned up looking at me. Not crowding but in close. This is acceptable for both sports as long as is consistent.

Okay, basically I agree with dogdude here but I am going to go a bit unconventional here I think and tell you what I did and do. I utilise the prey drive for the retrieve to its max. I WANT it. And I rarely lose more than one or two points in the ring on dumbell exercises. Dumbell is the highlight of the ringwork for my dog. Plus, you are sneakily taking a toy in the ring if the dog loves it and unless the judge makes a point of getting it away with the steward you can usually give the dog a good look at it as you go in which revs them up as they know what's coming.

I do not go with the whole complex Shirley Chong retrieve, though it works beautifully if you get it right. To build drive with the dumbell and make the exercise super fun I PLAY WITH THE DAMNED THING and LET THE DOG KEEP IT!!!! Sacrilege LOL. Originally I trained my dog to 'fetch' 'hold' 'give' using a what might be termed 'gentle forced' method where you gently hold dumbell in mouth for a second and then reward with click and treat or in my case 'yes' and treat as I prefer my voice. This worked well and was kind. I think Tapferhund described it somewhere here once. However, I have a dog I had to hardly do any of this with as she picked up everything from the moment I got her, the little bugger. Sometimes NOT a bonus! LOL

To build enthusiasm and drive for dumbell, I USE DUMBELL as a reward. Dumbell comes out, 'go go go girl!!!' I use it like ball on string, or hose. Around and around we go, pretend throws, she zips thru my legs to get it, I tug with it. How to get release? Stop the game. Turn your back if necessary. If you have a little 'tester' who is trying to take power and hold on, I swap food for dumbell or... stop the game and frown. Reprimand if necessary with voice (be very very careful here!!! the idea of the whole method is to inspire the dog, not knock drive with reprimands and if the dog is soft you can ruin the whole thing but a couple of REALLY grumbly outs followed by instant restart of the game may be all you need if your dog is soft). And I have never had my dog, who can be quite dominant even though she is soft too, hang onto that dumbell in the ring. Look, maybe not for everyone but that is what I do. And long throws. And release the dog to the dumbell BEFORE it stops rolling now and again. The risk of preempting your command is greater but it is moving prey and the dog will run like hell for it. Plus just watch when doing lots informal throws that you throw far enough that the dog does not trip up on it when it is tumbling along. it is not soft like a toy. And if you do ringwork, take a toy in there too and do retrieves with the toy to inspire the dog to enjoy retrieving in the ring.

Just some hopefully helpful comments. Stay away from too much formal. It kills the dogs enthusiasm and they often never look good doing it.

Congrats Leopuppy!!!

Sorry I missed the rest of you, I ummm slept in and got there rather late!!!

I wondered if that was you Arya, but feel like a twit going up to people and asking!!!

Jules, you should have come up, I would have loved to meet you!!!!!!!!!!! I am friendly... so is Tess LOL. And nobody's a bigger twit than me, I'm telling you...

Were you in Open ring? Next time, just come up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heather

Way to go Leopuppy04 and boy!!!! Fantastic results! Compliments on the trial organisation too.

Arya: We went crap! :shakehead: Fantastic warm up........very attentive outside the ring.........got in the ring full of confidence but just looked like his mind was a million miles away. Started of with freezing on the first turn, (called him up) and he was great for the rest of the heel pattern (still on a pass).............great Stand for exam,........good retrieve on flat.........great retrieve over high jump...........NQ on C.O.P (looked at me like a dufus when I gave the drop signal).

I guess the really disappointing part for me was trying to work out why he froze during the heel pattern. I have never physically corrected him while heeling and he has never lost more than 1 or 2 points for heel exercise. I know the C.O.P thing was just a brainfade that I can explain and accept.

Oh, I'm so sorry Dogdude! You were in the ring closest to the clubhouse, weren't you? Maybe something did make him feel nervous because of that? Maybe it was the fact your family was there, even though they were so far from the ring? (sorry I didn't get to meet them!!!) I'm sure it was just something off on the day as he is so good! I know you said he doesn't like warm and it did get pretty warm, didn't it. Maybe that put him off.