Arya

If you are interested in tracking and live in Vic check out the tracking club of victoria website. I dont' have their URL offhand but Google it. I am a member its great :rolleyes:

I have to agree with Arya on this one.

Continously "winning" the toy (the human that is) is not a good thing for the dog's love and drive of the game. The dog needs to know it can win the game more often than not in order to keep up enthusiasm. I think the most important thing here is control the game by teaching the dog to "give" the item up on cue. His reward for giving it up is to immediately continue to the game. I find this a better and fairer way of controlling the game.

This is my view too.

With respect to the losing teeth issue, I think it's important to do a bit of tai chi style "push hands" when you're tugging (or leash training, or just about anything really).

That is, be aware of the force between the tug toy and the dog - with a lot of dogs you don't need to exert any real pressure yourself, just be solidly grounded and let the dog do the tugging. And if your dog isn't good at self-limiting (god knows I have one of those...), make sure you do the limiting for him or her.

Losing teeth? Ihadn't thought of that one! But I have GSD so good size and big teeth LOL. I actually swing my dog around in a circle by the hose, the way some swing their kids by the arms. Then pull with one hand and stroke head with other sometimes (being aware to keep pressure even on both sides of hose most of time to help the dog's neck). I will hold up high and invite the dog to jump high to my level to try to get the hose, or receive the hose for a reward, or to tease her to fire her drive up. The hose also seems to help clean my dog's teeth, weirdly.

K9, I see what you mean about all toys are the Alpha's and if i say put it in the bag she does, but I usually will exchange for piece of food unless she will happily give back to restart game. Trophy for trophy. She can be quite dominant but seems to get this within the confines of the game. I use pack position to help in training. So raise high as a reward - jump up, win tug, small incremental temporary increase in pack status for good behaviour. Right back down bottom if doesn't do the right thing LOL. But this is just my dog and it's taken a long time to find keys to getting inside her head to get the best out of her. Maybe others different?

So Arya - perhaps you should have said that YOU can do as well in the trial ring as you do at training :cool:

Good news that the post games have helped. It wasn't that long ago that the start post was the worst place in the world for her.

Good luck in achiveing all you set out to in 2008

Ptolomy, you are so right!!!!!!!!! I am NOT going to stuff up this year, it is not really the dog is it. I AM NOT GOING TO STUFF UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL Actually, our video camera has been working overtime. It's amazing how much you can pick up that you are doing wrong with the camera and it will all help.

Good luck to you in achieving everything you want to in 08 too! Good luck to all of us... let's hope none of us need it

I use a leather article for seek back. The dog can easily differentiate. Before commencing any sort of formal seek back I made it a very high value toy. Really seriously as high as Tess' hose we use for reward. Then I pulled it out and made a big deal of the whole thing. I now have a dog who will retrieve the seek back at lightning speed. The only fault with this method is when you heel off, the dog gets very drivey and it took Tess a while to heel as nicely as she does when it's not seek back as she would get excited and forge forward and then sit only just barely, waiting to be sent to retrieve. Look at seek back as a huge retrieval game and I don't reckon you can fail. I have watched others iwth this exercise and the ones who do well also make big deal out of the retrieval aspect. The ones who don't the dogs are much slower. Just my take on it anyway :D The more fun and hype, the better for me and Tess LOL.

Hey Ptolomy, do you use a mark for the dog to run to in the sendaway? I can get the Sch. sendaway with a mark too with no box just the mark, or you know it's weird, if you say 'on your mark' the dog will turn and either sit, drop or stand with no mark. Must be an imaginary one in her head! LOL. Hula hoop, fun idea

I would LOVE seriously though to have her just perform in the ring the way she does in training. Small wish list... not LOL

Gees from your results this year I thought you had already overcome that hurdle.........

So what are the problems now........what are the differences between training and trialling?

Got one really nice pass Ptolomy, only one in ring to do it on hot day. Next trial, sitting on 194 I blew dumbell by throwing it into the fence at the end of the ring I threw it so far LOL. Poor dog got to fence and went 'this ain't right'. Then PM trial went down in stays with worst case of flies on face couldn't blame her, blew 181. But fourth trial, last of year something was off key and she quickly reverted to refusing to heel in the ring and walked off. I think it was just that at that stage, you just have to have one thing out of whack to upset her and back the old displacement behaviours come. But at the moment, out of trials while hols on, I am seeing huge improvements in her performance. Her drive has gone thru the roof. We have obedience nights starting in Feb just before trial season here in Vic like mock trials and with their help I am thinking we'll be fine. BTW, those post games work so well that my girl will race to the post on the words 'back to the post' now and wait to touch my fist to receive a reward, or get one as we heel off. Thanks a million for that cos the post is now her very best friend LOL! This is such a bonus, everyone should do it Plus, lots of heeling games using little witches hats, weaving poles jumps, stuff. Makes it so fun that heeling is now fav exercise!

My goals this year are to stop pratting around with my dog and get her to do what she damned well can... pass through Novice, Open and up into UD. I would LOVE seriously though to have her just perform in the ring the way she does in training. That is my main goal. And to get her TQT and Track 1 if I can. And to get her BH if I can!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Small wish list... not LOL

Hey LP As you know Tess the naughty has the full UD now. I don't believe there is anything in UD you can teach that will cause problems with Open. The bits of advice I have is to train (as you have plenty of time) one or two exercises at a time until they are solid, then chain them all together. Othes may disagree but I don't pattern train either. I will mix the order of exercises up and name them for the dog so the dog knows what's coming by the name. Make the seek back a huge toy too. And start very very slow with scent discrimination and keep it super fun for the dog, so they look forward to doing it and don't fail. The biggest longest exercise for Tess to learn was box and directed jumping. I taught box first, separately, in the living room. Set it up and send the dog to it from a metre away and then work backwards. Once box is solid and you've progressed from living room to back yard to park whatever, then place the jumps in position. You will be surprised to find that this may stuff up the dog running to the box. So when you train box, take the dog around all sides and have him run into the box from different directions. Why? I found the orientation of the box and what the dog looks at as they run to it makes the difference. I am fussy I want Tess sitting right in the middle of the box so I went back and retrained her to run to a mark in the box, then faded the mark, so she was sitting just where I wanted to her. To get them to sit quickly in the box, if they do a spin or twist, before you have them go to the box ask for a spin and sit, a twist and sit. Take note of which way the dog turns when they hit the box and sit, to help you with this. There are so many tips, so many things I've learnt as I taught Tess the UD exercises. But the one thing I found was UD beats the hell out of all the other classes. Novice is boring. Open isn't that much more exciting except for dumbell. But UD is the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now all I have to do is this year.... try to get the hell out of Novice and thru Open and into our favourite LOL

I will engage in tug-of-war but I prefer to 'win' the toy and then give it to the dog - shows that I am the one who controls this valuable resource.

ETA: I agree with Tonymc - the tug toy can be a valuable training tool. ;)

Wow, Erny, I so rarely disagree with you ;) But this time I'm going to. Tug of war is something I am PASSIONATE about. It is VITAL that the dog wins most of the time. I think of it like playing one on one basketball. Why would I bother if I knew I'd have to wait to have the ball given to me??? To be truly motivational, the dog must win. Then hand the toy over in a swap for a bit of food or a swap to start the game over. My bitch can... pardon me... be a BITCH!!! But I never have any dominance problems resulting from tug of war. The toy (hose in my case) only comes out when I am playing with her and that is where she sees the value. She will run to her training bag to hunt thru and pull out when game begins and she puts away at the end, when I ask her to lol. BUT, it's not about control in this instance, it's about one on one working together for me. Control is learnt elsewhere, not on the play/training field.

I think this debate came up recently in a Michael Tucker article in Dogs Vic mag and we've already got a thread somewhere. As I said, I am passionate about this. NO TUG IS CRAP IMHO. Anyone who says this is living in the dark ages for most dogs. I don't believe there are many truly dominant dogs out there that you just couldn't play this game with. So go for it. As Erny also did say, it can be a valuable training tool and for a drivey dog, the most valuable training tool of all.

Thanks for your reply.

So would you suggest limiting her interactions with other dogs to just a quick hello, and leave until I can try to use this to my advantage?

When there are other dogs around, I find it extremely hard to try and get any sort of focus from her, unless we're at training, which she's learnt is different from our local park.

At the moment, other dogs are definitely her 1st priority, and getting her focus off them is the hardest thing, especially since she's very hard to even get to play with a toy if there's another dog around and running. The toy I use is a rolled up piece of towel, and she goes crazy for it, just loses her enthusiasm for it when there are other dogs around.

I guess I've been so focused on ensuring she's dog social, that I've let her become a bit too obsessed with them!

Although she had improved a lot in recent weeks, especially after going to Kepala. She's starting to move her focus back onto me, as the novelty of the other dogs starts to wear off.

ETA- I think I better contact k9 dog training to do their training in prey drive by correspondence. Given how focused she is on any other animal moving at a fast speed, I think if I can get this focus on me, we'll be set for obedience.

I would definitely limit her interactions with other dogs. Who is meant to be the centre of her universe? NOT other dogs. Forget other dogs and all that 'socialisation' stuff for the moment. Socialisation can be a double-edged sword imho. It is vital but at the same time, DOES NOT take priority over your dog's interaction with you. So keep her away from other dogs at the park in a nice a way as possible, by providing her with a 'more interesting' you, complete with toys, fun etc.

If she loses her enthusiasm for the rolled up towel (good choice btw but try some thick washing machine hose, the white stuff, you'll find it's better on tug and easier to throw just watch though, easy to hurt yourself or dog if you hit anything with it lol) then the drive for it is not high enough. Work AWAY from other dogs. Find the 'line in the sand' where she becomes more interested in her towel and then move in slowly. Act much more animated. Hey, think of it like a kind of dance. That's what I always do. Here's an analogy I was thinking of the other day. If someone asked me who I'd rather dance with... John Howard or James Bond, I'd of course choose James Bond every time. I would be HIGHLY motivated to learn to dance a difficult dance with James Bond but John Howard... nope. JB is action man, cute, lots of good reasons to dance with him. Think of it from your dog's pov. You need to be animated, fast moving, lots of fun, a good player... a better player than other dogs which is very very hard. I always remember the great trainer Steve Austin said something at a lecture I went to by him. He said 'dogs play REAL well with other dogs. Too well. Don't try and compete.' So... remove the competition, at least for now. Then you have a chance of winning. Hope that helps and makes some sense!

Cheers

My German Shepherd girl is practically 12 months old now.

The biggest problem I have with her is her prey drive kicking in when she's around other dogs. While I know it's part of her playing with them, she will chase another dog until she's about to drop pretty much (and loves it when they're going flat out, such as chasing a ball). Once she catches the other dog, depending on how dominant/submissive they are, she'll often jump at them, make a lot of noise, and if she knocks them over, jump on them and try to play really roughly.

While other German Shepherds don't seem to have a problem with this (they'll take it in turns as to who chases who), some other dogs (and more often their owners) get a bit intimidated by this playing. One dog (a doberman) she's been playing with since they were puppies (and this dobe used to be the one doing it to her) has started crouching and fear biting at her. I now just keep her away from this dog (which isn't fun, because my girl thinks she's her best friend), as it just turns frustrating when Zali tries everything she can to get her to play and the dobe just gets more scared.

I'm just wondering if anyone can suggest some strategies to try and control this prey drive in situations such as playing with other dogs that aren't as full on, so that she doesn't intimidate those dogs that don't see this as a fun game (like she does)?

Hi IMHO what you need to do is utilise that prey drive in the dog to work for you by firstly, NOT letting her tear around to play with other dogs but taking her off on her own and working to condition her to a prey object. I have said on this site lots that I use a bit or bits of hose. Check out 'the two hose game' on google. Otherwise, another article such as suitable ball or balls or tug toys for the dog. You must work to teach the dog to focus her drive on these though, it takes time, weeks. On the other hand, what you are describing may not be prey drive at all. Erny or one of the other experts here will be able to answer this better than me

I personally would work on using the dog's drive just you and her, keep the games to you and her, you are the queen of fun. Dogs must come second if you want to gain control over her. Anyway, hope that gives you some food for thought and is a bit of a help

Hi all, was just wondering, does anyone know what day of the week Broadmeadows & Districts Sch. Club here in Melbourne trains? Is it Sunday mornings? I know where it is just not sure on the day would love to go for a look at some stage!

Thanks

Hi Arya,

They train on a Sunday morning,

Both Keith and Sharon will be able to help you with any other details that you wish to know.

Broadmeadows Obedience Dog Club Inc

Phone Contact : Ms Sharon Notley

PO Box 3005, Broadmeadows 3047

9309 8304

regards

Kallistar

Thanks heaps Kallistar! I will make contact in the new year, have heard is excellent club one of the best

Cheers

Arya

Hi all! Can anyone help with details of this club's day? I've put a question in dog sports!

Thanks

Hi all, was just wondering, does anyone know what day of the week Broadmeadows & Districts Sch. Club here in Melbourne trains? Is it Sunday mornings? I know where it is just not sure on the day would love to go for a look at some stage!

Thanks

Wot Arya said.

One question though:

Endorphins to suppress fear and pain during the chase and kill?

Isn't it adrenalin that blocks fear, pain, and the ability to record memories and then the endorphins kick in after the catch to form part of the reward for the behaviour?

Yep Rom, this is the standard explanation and wrongly worded by me. Indeed, adrenalin is the major initial pain blocker. I don't think it (and I have no research whatsoever to back this up so just theorising here lol) is the full picture though. In humans anyway, from what I read, adrenalin causes increase in heart rate, shunts blood out to extremities, muscle contraction, everything needed for fast movement for fight, flight, chase, fearlessness, whatever. BUT, where does it say you get an autonomic nervous system response like pupil dilation? Just the thought of the chase provides a huge kick to drivey dogs. Just the switch on word. It turns them on! So my bet is endorphins play a big part too, not just adrenalin. Think about childbirth. Would be excruciating without endorphins to block the pain. That's not adrenalin, that's endorphins. It's so complex and I don't even begin to pretend to understand it all by any means as I'm no scientist! But I'm just going on my behavioural observations with dogs and their reactions. I love learning this stuff and trying it out on the dogs to see what happens and how we can use it in training to get the responses we need in a nice way. What do you think? Am I talking crap

Excerpt from Excel-erated learning by Pamela J Reid

Motivation

"As I have mentioned several times, motivation is one factor which influences whether or not a learned behaviour will be performed. As trainers, we need to be well versed in the science of motiviation as well as the science of learning theory because we can also manipulate the motivation of our animals. Motivation is like the gasoline in your car - without it, your car can't go anywhere. The car may be functioning perfectly but it needs "juice" to display it. Motivation is used to describe the forces which act on or within an animal to activate and direct behavior.

A concept that you may be familiar with is the drive theory of motivation. Several top trainers have adapted drive theory to explain why some dogs react to training differently. The idea behind drive theory is that each individual animal comes genetically "equiped" with varying levels of energy for different drives. The dog might possess a particuarly strong "prey" drive, which means that he is highly likely to engage in predatory behavior extremely rewarding. Thus, the dog is highly motivated to reduce the need resutling from this drive state. According to drive theory, behavior is a result of both what has been learned and what is activated by the current drive level. If the dog is primarily activated by his hunger drive, he will engage in food-getting behaviors, particuarly behaviors he has learned are related to obtaining food. If my dog is primarily activated by his prey drive, he will engage in predatory behaviors ,such as stalking, chasing, biting, and so on. If my dog is activated by his "pack" drive, he will engage in social behaviors, such as nuzzling, grooming, etc.

In the psychological literature, drive theory as an explanation for motivation has gone out of fashion because FEW OF THE THEORETICAL PREDICTIONS WERE SUBSTANTIATED EXPERIMENTALLY. It is useful, from a dog trainer's standpoint, as a mean for developing effective reinforcers for a specific dog and for identifying how a specific dog is likely to react to a given situation (in order words, what unconditioned responses are likely to be elicited by a training scenario). Otherwise, I feel the theory's value is pretty limited.

The main point to understand is that the relationship between learning and motivation is so entwined that it is difficult to conceive of one without the other. For the most part, learign does not occur without motivation. Once a behavior has been learned, it may not be performed if the animal is not motivated to respond. In any training situation, you must consider the motivational state of the animal as well as the learning contingencies. You must also consider competing motivations. You may have a hungry dog that has acquired the response of coming when called in order to earn a food rewardd, but if the dog is loose and there are squirrels to be chased, you may not see the fruits of your training labours."

Thankyou, my friend Fiona for typing the above. Hopefuly not too many typing mistakes.

Thoughts??????????

PS Sometimes I think I am cheating having highly motivated working labradors to retrieve. Keep an open mind, has been said to be my strongest gift.

Okay, hope I am understanding what you have typed okay!!! this is an area that interests me greatly and I love playing around with drive when working my dog, turning it up and down, watching the physiological reactions within the dog take place, like body tensing, pupils dilating. I would like to see how these drive theories have supposedly been disproved. Here is my take on it:

Drive = survival, whatever drive the dog is working in. The predatory drive sequence is: Sensing prey thru sight/smell/hearing. Sighting prey. Chasing prey. Killing prey. Devouring prey. Each part of this sequence utilises different part of the brain, different brain chemicals coming into play. The motivation behind it ALL though, is survival. This goes for pack drive too, which could be said to fall before and after the predatory drive sequence. And not to forget retrieval or defence drive as tools too. All we do as motivational trainers is manipulate the natural behaviours/amplify or suppress, to suit ourselves. It could be argued that even compulsion training is simply a form of pack drive training - higher order dog suppressing lower order dog. Get me? But to get back to motivational training. The drive theory, as far as I am concerned, works as a motivational training tool hands down, when used correctly, whichever part of the sequence you choose. Things I have observed in my own and other dogs:

Chase/kill drive will override food and pack drive every time, in a dog with these drives well developed. Could this be because of the chemicals being released? Endorphins to suppress fear and pain during the chase and kill? I think so. A well developed chase/kill drive dog (so a dog that loves to chase a ball/hose, or tug a tug toy, dummy, hose) will do so until it drops. Not so a food motivated dog. But that's not to say a highly motivated, hungry dog won't work just as well for food.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings. As I say, a topic that fascinates me. How can we apply this back to other animals I often wonder? Even ourselves!

But to answer the original question. I think the drive theory of motivational training stands up every time. The only time it would fail is if the wrong drive for the dog is being used as a tool - for example, a food driven dog with little chase/kill drive trying to train it with a bite roll or hose. Or vice-versa.

Phew! Great topic

I'm getting a Belgian Pup for xmas. I would like to do competitive obedience and agility in the future. I thought I had a basic understanding of how to train a dog effectively but the more I read the more confused I become! (I'm not a first time dog owner... just a first time puppy owner with no experience in competitive comp/agi training)

I assumed that I would go with reward based training but have read a few things (here and elsewhere) suggesting that 'drive training' would be far better for a dog intended to work at comp level. Part of my problem is that terms seem to mean different things to different people! Are reward training and drive training mutually exclusive? Are they the same thing? Where does positive/negative/balanced fit in? Are training methods used for a family pet deferent to those used for competition dogs?

I know this has been a controversial topic... IN a nut shell what are the different training styles - pros and cons and what would be best for a comp Ob/agi dog? (I realise that a lot depends on the dog's personality etc am looking for general info.)

EDIT: Thank you everyone for the advice! Tis most useful. What exactly is the difference between methods used to train a 'pet' and those used to train a competition dog (obedience/agi)? If I am with a club that trains CCD, CD, CDX, UD, UDX (I understand that many clubs train to CCD standard but not necessarily with a view to trialling) surely the standard required to meet those levels would be sufficent for successful competition?

Thanks in advance....

OOOH, A BELGIAN PUP! Nice one! Lucky Listen, I haven't read all the posts here but as far as I'm concerned drive training is the biggest reward based training you can have for a dog that has prey drive. But as Dogdude said, they can drive for food too. Drive is just a term. If you mean predatory chase/tug that sort of drive, it is a HUGE reward! Reward based training, perhaps the correct term is motivational training. I'm a bit reluctant to use any of those terms as they can be so confusing. I use food sometimes and a piece of hose at others. Tug, chuck the hose. The dog thinks hose greatest thing on earth. But you have to choose what suits your dog best. My advice would be to start building drive as soon as you get the pup whether you use food rewards or not. Lots of tug, ball games hose if you want. I used to use a massive piece of shipping rope with my dog, her on one end and me on the other as a pup. It was great fun. And let the pup WIN. Don't believe the BS that the dog should never win. Hey, take a look at some dvds to work out how you want to train. Look at K9s site, check out the Leerburg DVD called Training Drive, Focus and Grip. Have a look at some of the clicker training DVDs too. Then you can choose how you'd like to train and you can also have a wide spectrum of methods so that as your pup progresses, you can work out what motivates the pup best.

My choice is drive training because that's what my dog lives for. But she wasn't always like that, i had to build it.

PS, a lot of clubs don't do drive training with hoses and stuff. BUT, Croydon is a super, super club. If you are close, I'd go there and check out Leopuppy's dogs as the kind of 'gold standard' in training (she'll probably kill me for that but it's true, she is excellent trainer).

Dont' forget to socialise the pup every single day with things and people and other dogs too Makes life for the pup easier. Check out K9 website again

These posts cracked me up!!!!!!!!!!!! I was wondering though... tulips? Flowers? Are you sure you all haven't been growing something ELSE and smoking it before you wrote these posts????????????

Personally, I think knitting would be a good profession. It's a dying art... he he

Ok - last mindless brag for the year... I promise ;)

Busy weekend this weekend! Agility trial on Sat and Obedience trial today.

Agility didn't start so well with some terrible runs in the morning and one distracted doggy - Ex Jumping was pretty bad, he just wasn't paying attention. Novice Agility was better, but we knocked 2 bars .

PM was a much better run. Mum got lost in Ex Jumping and turned to late, thereby causing dog to go wide and miss the jumps ;). But we did get a pass in Novice Agility (#2) and 30 sec under time :D! It's been like extracting teeth getting these Nov Agility passes so i'm thrilled. We came 3rd in around 8 qualies, with some really good dogs there!

Today Obedience was organised by our home club and my first time as Trial Secretary (I hope all the DOlers who went had a good time!). Was very hot today with it hovering around 30deg! Leo worked brilliantly. Our 2nd ever trial in Open and we pulled of another pass - 189, great comments from the judge, 1st place and Highest scoring Croydon Member in trial :rofl:! I've always wanted to pull off a 190 +, but I guess next time eh?! LOL! Couldn't be prouder with him considering the conditions!

Was the first weekend I've used my cool coat too - and needless to say - I'm very impressed with them.... they really work!!!!

Here's the photo with the loot! Go the DOL doggies!

Beautiful photo LP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And huge congrats for the day. He is such a STAR! And a great score. I can tell you everyone, it was trying conditions. Hot and windy. Leo did you both extremely proud and He is going to sail through next year. The thing I can't wait to see is KINTA trialling too! I am so pleased I got to finally meet her too. She is such a sweetie If she works better than Leo LOOK OUT everyone cos it is hard to work better than Leo, that's all I can say!

I must say huge congrats about the trial too. The grounds were lovely, everything was so well organised, beaut barbecue, started bang on time, everything just great and so friendly. A lovely day in spite of the trying conditions. I will be back next year whatever the weather

As for my girl, poor girl she had a bit of a regression and bombed out big time. Dont actually know why but she wasn't keen to chew her kong with food beforehand and thinking about it, I should hve withdrawn her as I could tell she wasn't right. She startedher old behaviours again but not unexpected. Then went out of the ring and was champion of the day at the back of the rings lol. All okay though, we are slowly getting there.

All Vic triallers, go to Croydon next year and support the club. They do a great job!!!

Super congrats to everyone else with their successes too. So nice to hear everyones happy brags

Now I read that post and go and blindly have a go at torturing my dog because you have had sucsess with it??

I am saying torture as I have no clue what I'm doing. So do I just squeeze the crap of my dogs ear until it grabs the DB?

Wow, that is rather an emotive response.

How is the ear pinch any different from prong collars or check chains? They can all be misused and need appropriate training and experience to get the best out of them.

There are many methods of training dogs and i think all good trainers need to be open minded and to make claims only based on solid experience.

BTW, i have never used the ear pinch, nor do i know how, but there are trainers who i respect greatly who use it and get fantastic results.

I think it's all in how these things are used jesomil. The ear pinch, prong collar or check chain can all be used as corrections. That's the only time I personally think they should be used. As a correction for really unacceptable behaviour, just as a pack leader would in the wild. I personally DO NOT agree with the idea of using the ear pinch or even pressure from a prong collar, check chain, e-collar to teach a dog to do something. The use of 'negative reinforcement' in other words. Tools that can be used for positive punishment, that's where they should stay. They have a place imho, just not in teaching a dog to do something it does not understand. In other words, why start with a negative? It's not smart training imho. BUT, everyone has different training methods that work for them and Im not out to criticise anyone. We all love our dogs

It is no mystery why people like K9 and others over the years find it harder and harder to attain suitable Dogs for their lines of work.

Modern day breeding has damaged many Dogs, through dogs being bred soley on appearance and never tested.Drive needs to be bred for but cannot be measured just by a Dog"s appearance!!!!The Dog has to be tested to reveal his or her drive level.

Too many breed low drive to low drive and very soon we have high drive dogs becoming scarce. Tony

SUPERBLY SAID TONYMC, COULDN'T AGREE MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The GSD is a perfect example of this and it makes me cry, truly. Why is drive, working ability and nerve with this breed associated with 'viciousness' by the general public? IMHO this needs to be seriously addressed by the relevant GSD bodies. I almost cried last year at a public demonstration by the GSDCV demo team at a country show where the commentator, a part of the team, stated over the microphone to the general public as the dogs were doing their tricks (just formation work, carrying baskets, jumping over each other stuff, no TRUE GSD WORK!) that breeders were now breeding - and I quote, cos I'll never forget his exact words - 'a softer dog that is more suitable for the pet home'. What GARBAGE! IMHO the very best working dogs should also be the very best house dogs with solid temperament. So what hope does this wonderful breed have in this country when this attitude is displayed... by a long standing and quite influential member of the club that is supposed to be the breed's guardian???

I am lucky. At least my girl has bloody good drive even if her nerve is not what it should be. But I've seen plenty of flat working GSDs who just don't have the breeding behind them - and even the show lines just should NOT be like that.

Can you tell how this upsets me? lol

Okay, here's the method I like. Well, shoot me down if you don't but anyone whose seen my dog work with dumbell will tell you she loves it (apart from stupid handler me who throws dumbells into fence at trials and stuffs up lol). Take all other toys away temporarily. Get down the park. yep, here we go again, build drive. Forget the formal totally. Use the dumbell as a TOY. Forget clickers, marker words, whatever. Go for it like it is a stick. Run, make yourself move really fast, move your hands, arms and throw the dumbell. Race after it yourself if necessary. Act the fool. Get the dog so hyped they start to jump all over the place. Then don't worry about how the dog picks it up, just hope they pick it up. If they don't and they just stand there looking at it don't say anything bad and watch your facial expression, just run up and go GREAT, you didn't get it, I DID! I GET THE PRIZE YAY!!! Even get two dumbells and use them like the two food or two hose game. Make them toys. Treat them like sticks at the park or on the beach. This is actually a shortcut method. once the dog is reliably picking the dumbell up and running back to you, then start getting a LITTLE more formal. Have some food. Get the dog to front and swap for the food, instituting the word out or give at this point. This will NOT ruin the dog and make them never give the dumbell to you in trials, I promise. My girl can be a bitch and not want to give me things but she always gives the dumbell back. At the end of the day what you will have is a dog who RUNS full tilt back to you with the dumbell after rocketting out to get it. Not one who trots slowly back. Why? Because right from the 'first contact' with the dumbell it is seen as a fun item. Like a ball, hose, stick, tug, whatever. There is absolutely no need to make this article a formal article only imho. Make it high value. Make it toy of the century. But remember, it might take a few weeks to do this. It won't happen instantly, especially if you've been more formal in the past and it has 'serious' connotations for the dog.

PS, there's varying types of 'forced retrieve' as Tapferhund said. You don't have to be cruel to put something in your dog's mouth and hold it there for a second, then reward. This is a good method for teaching to hold the metal in UD too. It does work well and can be very gentle. The term FORCED RETRIEVE, doesn't fit it, I think. Maybe ENCOURAGED RETRIEVE. Forced retrieve with the ear pinch is a load of totally outdated crap in my opinion... sorry if this causes anyone offence.

I was lucky with my girl in that she always has liked to pick things up in her mouth... TOO MUCH, the bugger!!! lol

Anyway, give the fun toy method a go too if nothing else is working. You will find a way to get things going.

Hi everyone! Wow, been off the page for a day or two and didn't see this! Ptolomy and B_C, fantastic! DOGDUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D That is UNREAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a truly fantastic way for Oscar to end his first year. Bang, bang, bang, just like that. What a super, super thing. You must be so proud of him. And yes, his tail must be his secret weapon to keep him cool lol. There are very few who achieve such outstanding results consistently and to do so at the beginning of his trialling career... wow. ;) I really wish I'd been at those trials to see him.

JulesP, I would definitely be up for some training over the summer period, depending on where you go I too have no life outside dogs... that's the way I like it I am up and down Seaford, Frankston, KCC Park way all the time for training and to see friends (moving down that way early next year) but have car... can travel

Once again to Dogdude, Ptolomy and B_C, YAAAAAY!!!

I still wouldn't use a clicker in training until you've sorted the problem out, to avoid associating stressful stuff with training for the dog. He/she will make this connection all too easily!!!

I like the i-click too. it has a nice sound, is kind of nice 'ergonomic' lol to hold and is easy to press with that button, so easy to get timing right.

This is interesting because someone on another thread not long ago found the same thing. IMHO you should immediately stop using the clicker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't even try another one during training. You are pairing something that is scaring your dog (clicker) with something you want only to be associated with great stuff and fun (training). I would use a verbal marker instead (I use yes but you can say whatever you like lol). I guess if you really really wanted to use clicker for some reason you could try pairing it with something fantastic like the best food your dog loves, OUTSIDE OF TRAINING, say in the lounge room or something. But I wouldn't go there if I were you. In saying this I've got nothing against clicker. I use verbal marker for most but have found clicker absolutely invaluable for teaching slight independence during stays, as an intermediate reinforcer. The sound of approval is the clicker and is paired with treat, so is very appealing. But, it is not my voice and has helped with independence. It's a bit subtle but just thought Id chuck that in. I just wouldn't go with anything scary during training though. But your dog could still learn to love clicker in another context and you could bring it into training later if you absolutely wanted to. I love voice best though:)