Gayle.

It might never change but it's still an interesting subject to discuss. Good to hear others opinions.

I know what you explained to me but I've thought about it since and it doesn't sit right with me. The judges don't justify thier choice, they just make it and it's final. Why on earth would ringside gossipmongers be influencing them that much?

Why wouldn't a rare breed get a look in for group? If they are of a good enough standard, they should have the same opportunity as every other dog in the lineup....unless some dogs there are clearly better examples of their breed than others.

I looked that up on the Dogs Vic website because I was curious..... An obedience champion has gained his/her UD title, after which it has achieved a further five passes of 185/200 points or more in the utility class. So, no, to answer my own question an obedience champion doesn't have to beat anything, just get the passing scores required. So you could have 10 obedience champions in the same class, and one still untitled and the untitled one could still get their title by gaining the points. And while I think there's a certain level of skill involved in showing dogs, I honestly think there's a lot more skill involved in getting an obedience champion title as compared to a conformation champion title. Which is probably why there's a lot less obedience champions than conformation champions.

The low grade passes though, are titles...and stepping stones to bigger titles. Do you need to beat an obedience champion for your dog to become an obedience champion? I have no idea of what's required there.

Obedience is different though......firstly, you'd not have an obedience champion competing in CCD or Novice classes. Secondly, obedience is all about skill, and thirdly, there isn't a limit to the amount of passes handed out at an obedience trial. And you don't need to beat a champion, or a dog with a higher title, to gain an obedience title.

Yes I think I read it a while ago. It's not something I'm overly interested in but it does make an interesting topic for debate, especially as I've got two dogs here who were neutered early and don't seem to fit the "pattern". What is "significantly" taller? (referring to Aussielovers link)....it doesn't have measurements. It would be interesting to see a controlled study......ie, a whole bunch of dogs neutered at an early age, doing the same activities as a whole bunch of entire dogs of the same breed and age, and see just how they compare in the long run. But they'd have to all be the same breed, not crossbreds. And preferably a number of breeds.....small, active, tall, heavyset etc.

Sexual development doesn't occur which is the whole point of neutering. But the question still remains as to whether it is detrimental to the overall health of the dog in the long term, and even those links flat out say that scientists don't know a lot about hormones. And if the research is lacking in human hormones, then I doubt the canine researchers have more answers.

Why would someone continue to show a dog like that? My "first" show dog is a desexed couch potato after a very short career in the ring. She does not meet standard. She placed last in every class she entered. Even if I took her to a show and she was the only exhibit of her breed I seriously doubt any judge would have awarded her the Challenge certificate. Because maybe the owners were optimistic that a judge WOULD award a challenge eventually? Has it happened? Has there ever been a rare breed, the only one of it's kind being shown where lots of judges didn't award? My first show dog is going to be desexed later this year, I finally came to the conclusion that she is not good enough and even if she was, she's not interested enough. I think she's lovely and so does her breeder, but she slinks around the ring like a supermodel with a hangover and a really rotten headache. Her whole persona screams "I wanna go home!!!!"

Neither of those links are at all relevant to early neutering of dogs though.

A question for those who have been showing for decades.... Was there ever a dog that you know of, that was a rare breed that did not title despite being shown many, many times, because no judge thought it was worthy of the title of champion? That is, non-awarded at every show it entered?

All good points, all good food for though. But back to one of my original points..... If dogs in other states are titling easily against the local competition (ie, wins are shared around, no one or two dogs win week after week), but don't come up against Gr Ch's often, but don't win when they DO come up against Gr Ch's from interstate, does that make them lesser quality dogs with a meaningless title when compared to the ones who regularly compete against the same Gr Ch's and never win a challenge? If that were the case, there'd be more than 2 challenges per breed.

It's kind of hard for newcomers to keep up the enthusiasm week after week when they line up against Grand Champions of their breed at show after show....and often not just one, but a few.....and never, ever win a challenge. And never look like winning a challenge. It might be the icing on the cake but if you can't ever do it, it's not worth the effort of going to a show. And it's not "different" because that is exactly what is happening in at least one breed in Victoria, and people who own that breed are staying away in droves. Some would very much like to show but know they won't ever be able to title their dogs here, so don't even bother aside from maybe a speciality once a year. But if it's known that the owners of those Gr Ch's aren't going to be at a particular show, the entry in that breed triples or quadruples. For those of you who have been showing for a very long time.....if you went to shows and never, ever won a challenge, how long would it take for the novelty to wear off? Bear in mind, not everyone can just "go get another dog" as has often been suggested......quite often the dog being shown is also the family pet and you don;t just shuffle off the family pet to another home so you can get another dog to show.

I'm in two minds about this, it's something that's come up on a Facebook group I'm in. Just putting my thoughts down, not agreeing or disagreeing, or arguing with anyone. To be a champion, your dog needs to be an excellent example of it's breed. Currently there are dogs winning in Victoria, and winning interstate when they are taken to Royals and specialities, who are Grand Champions many times over. In the other states, there are dogs being titled who are not going up against Grand Champions week in week out. Are these dogs not good enough to hold their title as they are not beating the best dogs in the country? And are the dogs in Vic who are going up against Gr Ch's week after week and not getting points not good enough to hold the title of Ch? Breeders are sending their dogs interstate temporarily to get their titles, so they don't have to come up against Gr Ch's each week. I think you should have to beat something to get a title, but to have to beat Gr Ch's? There are dogs regularly winning class in group who can't get points. Why are they good enough to beat all the other breeds in their group but not be awarded points because they can't beat a Gr Ch? It's the only activity/sport/hobby I can think of where novices, beginners and newcomers are expected to compete against A-graders and have to win to get anywhere. When you have a dog of the breed that comes up against Gr Ch's each week, it's demoralising and it has actually turned a lot of people away from showing regularly. And then there's the rare breeds who title while never beating another dog. They then become champions of what? Champions of going to shows? That's not a title. Nor is Champion of Nothing. But they title anyway. There should be a method by which they need to beat other dogs to gain points. I would love to see a change and make it fairer, so that dogs who DO meet the breed standard and are excellent examples of their breed are recognised as such, but not pit the "amateurs against the pro's". It's a tricky one though.

Well, the prize I received for Isaak had on it Best Puppy in Show, so as far as I'm concerned, Best in Show is good to go for Hagen. What a pity the members comps aren't more widespread. They are great fun.....just like a real show but smaller and more relaxed and of course, no points.....they are judged in groups rather than breeds as the entry is small. The judges are trainees who need them to gain their judges licence, and they are generally thorough and take a lot of time to go over the dogs and talk to the handlers. The judge of the PM show saw me afterwards and told me my boy had "textbook perfect movement" and that he is absolutely beautiful. Never, in any other show, have I had a judge say anything about my dogs, let alone something so complimentary. Now I know what's attracting a judges eye, I can enhance it and make sure he's always moving nicely. Hagen drew a lot of attention from onlookers yesterday, lots of people were asking "Isn't that a kind of basset? How do you pronounce the name?" so he certainly didn't go unnoticed.

Hard to convey your tone but what do you mean EVEN pound animals? I was responding to post 22 where it was said it didn't really matter how a dog from the pound grew as most of them were mutt's and no one would know if they grew differently from early desexing. so I mean exactly what I said. If it's only a matter of the end size.......and I believe it would be mm's rather than cm's, why on earth would it matter to the owner of a mutt? Or the mutt itself? For the record, growth is governed by the pituitary gland, not the reproductive organs.

I have got 2 neuters, both desexed early. Benson was done at around 4 1/2 months, he is now 4 years old and is not gangly at all. In fact he is very much in proportion and an excellent example of his breed. The only difference to an entire (besides the obvious) is that he did not grow the big ruff of hair around the neck/chest area that an entire dog does. But his head has developed as a distinctly male head (in a breed where male and female heads are very different), he has the broad shoulders and chest of a male and he also has the heavier boning. Shae was desexed prior to being sold as a baby. She is 5 years old and the breeder does this without exception to any puppy being sold as a pet. She is very small, very much in proportion and definitely not lanky. She has an extremely pretty, feminine head and although she's not show quality, she does not look "wrong" for having been desexed early. This does not amount to any sort of scientific evidence. You are being subjective (which means it is only your opinion). You cannot at a glance see through to bone and cartilage, and you will never know what they would have been if left to mature normally. There is enough qualified evidence to prove the risks of early desexing. I need point this out no further. Can you please provide links to the qualified evidence. Each time I search for it, I find lots of opinions, some unqualified research (which is really nothing more than someones opinion) but nothing really substantial to back up any claims.

I was there and saw the win, he is a very impressive young man. He has a real presence about him, and I expect to see him doing really well in the all breeds shows. It was lovely to see a rare breed go BIS too, and as soon as I saw it, I thought of you! ETA (My boy Isaak won puppy in show in the PM show. Just my little brag for the day....yep, it might be "just" a members comp but I couldn't be prouder if it was Crufts!)

I have got 2 neuters, both desexed early. Benson was done at around 4 1/2 months, he is now 4 years old and is not gangly at all. In fact he is very much in proportion and an excellent example of his breed. The only difference to an entire (besides the obvious) is that he did not grow the big ruff of hair around the neck/chest area that an entire dog does. But his head has developed as a distinctly male head (in a breed where male and female heads are very different), he has the broad shoulders and chest of a male and he also has the heavier boning. Shae was desexed prior to being sold as a baby. She is 5 years old and the breeder does this without exception to any puppy being sold as a pet. She is very small, very much in proportion and definitely not lanky. She has an extremely pretty, feminine head and although she's not show quality, she does not look "wrong" for having been desexed early.

I think mental problems would be more likely to be congenital rather than linked to early neutering, but yes it would be interesting to find out.

I can see their point very clearly. The vast majority of dogs sold are not, or should not be bred from. Most of them going through shelters and pounds are mutts, and an incorrect growth rate on them won't matter much (it's not like you know what they'll grow up to look like), and is in fact much less of a worry than the very high chance of them having a litter of more mutts. And any breeds in danger of ending up as breeding fodder in puppy farms.......poodles, maltese, pugs, shih-tzu, bichons etc, are probably best desexed before being sold unless the breeder is 110% certain of the puppies future. I can completely understand early desexing in these cases and it's a matter of weighing up the chances of the dog being bred from in the future (high), vs the chances of the dog having some spey-related growth or health issues later in life (low).

Mine is a single berth, big enough for a big Australian Shepherd to stand up in, and will take 2 of my dogs at a squeeze (can't remember which size, maybe medium?)...it was $540 plus $40 shipping from Tas to Vic. They are made to order and it took about 2 weeks from when I ordered it until it landed on my doorstep. There is a quicker shipping method....air, I think, but it was more expensive and I wasn't in any great hurry for it. ETA, just checked the emails from Martin at OKS, the size was Jumbo, they also make a Mega which is wider and longer, but he will do custom sizes. Cost was $510 plus shipping.

I have recently purchased an OKS trolley, and it's fantastic. The service was first class and the trolley is a quality item that didn't cost an arm and a leg. Highly recommended.

I have an entire 3 year old bitch who is getting desexed later this year. She's never had a litter, and I can't imagine I'd want her any more settled down than she is or she'd be comatose.

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