Boxerheart

Yes, I'd love to know the backstory on this one. Just what was happening before the dog started fighting, or does he have a medical problem. Not because of the breed, but because a pet animal attacking several resident adults known to it without an apparent trigger sounds very unusual. Edited: was posting this when the report of the family fight was reported. I guess that's the trigger somehow. Poor dog. It did have a trigger. Dogs are pack animals. Very likely it saw the fighting of the men as an opportunity to join in the fight and gain rank. If humans in the house do not manage to hold the respected position of pack leader, a dog will very well try to be pack leader whatever it takes.

yes but that is the question isn't it? if Yes and that gland is what instructs the sex organs to function and growth that is sex organ related follows on from that.

I have got 2 neuters, both desexed early. Benson was done at around 4 1/2 months, he is now 4 years old and is not gangly at all. In fact he is very much in proportion and an excellent example of his breed. The only difference to an entire (besides the obvious) is that he did not grow the big ruff of hair around the neck/chest area that an entire dog does. But his head has developed as a distinctly male head (in a breed where male and female heads are very different), he has the broad shoulders and chest of a male and he also has the heavier boning. Shae was desexed prior to being sold as a baby. She is 5 years old and the breeder does this without exception to any puppy being sold as a pet. She is very small, very much in proportion and definitely not lanky. She has an extremely pretty, feminine head and although she's not show quality, she does not look "wrong" for having been desexed early. This does not amount to any sort of scientific evidence. You are being subjective (which means it is only your opinion). You cannot at a glance see through to bone and cartilage, and you will never know what they would have been if left to mature normally. There is enough qualified evidence to prove the risks of early desexing. I need point this out no further. Can you please provide links to the qualified evidence. Each time I search for it, I find lots of opinions, some unqualified research (which is really nothing more than someones opinion) but nothing really substantial to back up any claims. Google is your friend.. And talk to the vets who are objective and not influenced by the RSPCA. You could also get yourself an anatomy and physiology book that is used in medical training and do a bit of research on how important the sex hormones are in the body. You do not need to be fed with a silver spoon.

Yes, exactly. Boxerheart, just a comment - to be a business you do not have to make profit, but that is the usual aim for a business though. Many businesses do not make profit. For example, Charities are run like businesses but they are not about making profit. Business isn't a dirty word, nor is profit for that matter either. That is the point...we are neither a CHARITY nor a business and we are classified by the tax office as a HOBBY. Sure some that do breed in guantities with the purpose of making a profit, or a rescue organisation will be viewed differently but there is a DEFINITIVE DIFFERENCE.

Yep I would agree with that but I can see why a deposit may be non refundable if the breeder is providing something other than the pup at the time of deposit which would be saleable - such as their puppy pack or if the breeder is passing up sales because they think that one is taken. If someone pulls out at th elast minute then they have to pay extra for advertising etc to find a replacement sale. When I was breeding Ragdoll kittens I took non refundable deposits on my pet kittens. That was because if a kitten was going home as a pet it was desexed 2 weeks before it went home.That obviously meant that I couldnt then sell it as a breeding cat if the buyer changed their mind. A pet kitten back then was around $650 and a breeding kitten up to $2000. Sure, I can understand that the breeder may be left with an animal, however, that comes with the trade in my opinion. I would certainly ask for a deposit, without question, but I would not make it non-refundable. I can't even imagine it is legal to not refund the money if the sale goes through?? (sorry if this has been mentioned somehwere here already). But who says it has to come as a risk of the "trade" When I book a photographer I pay a non refundable deposit because Ive booked them for a certain day which has made them miss a potential job if I pull out. If I book an entertainer I have to pay them a non refundable deposit at the time I book them - could be a year in advance and its half of what they will be paid and then I have to pay them the full amount weeks before they even arrive.I dont get an option of a refund. If breeders are to behave in a business like fashion - and I agree they should, who is going to determine the terms of trade? Isnt it up to each of us to determine what conditions we will put on to take an order or fill an order, pre and after sales service and warranties? Isnt it then up to each of us as to how many we manufacture, what price we charge , where we sell them? Are we not able to decide our own business hours and how and when we will respond to enquiries? Whether we place a 7 day warranty or a 10 year warranty? I look on the net and animal rights propoganda tells me that a good breeder doesnt need to advertise - that they dont breed a litter unless they have definite orders for their puppies.Its a bad thing to advertise in newspapers or on those websites etc. Some breeders have a terrible time if they need to find homes for puppies after they are born in trying to find a way of selling them without getting bagged out because they were bad breeders and didnt have homes before they were bred. Yet we see one breeder who is taking orders before she goes into manufacture them and a "no wonder people go to BYB" Any one who has been breeding dogs for more than a minute knows that we can have a waiting list as long as your arm and "definite" orders until you go back to say you have a puppy for sale. Should I be judged as somehow un ethical if I live in a state where its O.K. not give out papers and I dont provide them and suit some one else's idea of terms of trade? Should a registered purebred breeder care if someone goes to a BYB? Not likely while ever we have more demand than supply So we cant have it both ways - if we are to behave in a business like fashion we get to say how our business will be run. If there is more supply than demand then Im sure breeders will adjust their business terms of trade to entice a greater part of the puppy buying market. You cant have it both ways - its either a hobby where we all act like clones and do as we are directed by what is generated as supposedly ethical or conventional behaviour or we determine our own terms of trade suited to our own needs and breeding programs. I agree with most you have said but disagree with the last line. I keep dogs as a hobby, this invariably does need some form of business like exchange if I have a litter as I cannot keep them all, however this is not my focus - am am not trying to build a business or turn a profit. The two do not need to be mutually exclusive. One can dictate the terms they enjoy their hobby and dog sports (and do not have to be a clone come that), and one can dictate how they choose to do business when and if it is required. Some breeders do however breed often enough each year they may come under the banner of business. In that instance it is no longer a hobby. But a black and white statement such as that last line cannot be applied to us all. You misunderstood what I was saying, Behaving in a business like fashion isnt necessarily running a business. Im assuming breeders involved in this topic are not running their dog breeding activities under the banner of business. However, on one hand we are expected to do what we do with all the trimmings and hallmarks of a hobby. No business would do what we do because it would mean they were in business to loose money. What business would place a guarantee on a product which included things they have absolutely no control over and promise to be around for its while life? How many businesses would do a quarter of what we as breeders are expected to do? We have pressure put on us about where we advertise and in fact in almost every single area of what we do because we are hobbyists - but we are also expected to behave in a business like structure which is determined by some hidden rules which seem to suit everyone except us. This particular breeder is asking a small non refundable deposit for people to go on their waiting list - I wouldnt do that but if thats what they have decided they want to do in order to be able to keep the business side of their hobby manageable then if a potential buyer doesnt like it then they will need to shop elsewhere.If that is a pet shop or BYB its their option - their choice but to suggest the breeder should be held accountable completely over looks the fact that no matter how many we breed whether we breed a lot or not many - whether we consider ourselves to be in business or a hobby the supply is not sufficient to fill the demand and breeders have the luxury of putting in place policies which slow the enquiries down and be more selective of where they go. Would be nice if one of these days we as breeders could just have a discussion about what we might do and consider regarding policies and procedures whether we breed 1 or 20 without the influence of animal rights or point scoring. Excellent clarification Steve Thankyou.

I have got 2 neuters, both desexed early. Benson was done at around 4 1/2 months, he is now 4 years old and is not gangly at all. In fact he is very much in proportion and an excellent example of his breed. The only difference to an entire (besides the obvious) is that he did not grow the big ruff of hair around the neck/chest area that an entire dog does. But his head has developed as a distinctly male head (in a breed where male and female heads are very different), he has the broad shoulders and chest of a male and he also has the heavier boning. Shae was desexed prior to being sold as a baby. She is 5 years old and the breeder does this without exception to any puppy being sold as a pet. She is very small, very much in proportion and definitely not lanky. She has an extremely pretty, feminine head and although she's not show quality, she does not look "wrong" for having been desexed early. This does not amount to any sort of scientific evidence. You are being subjective (which means it is only your opinion). You cannot at a glance see through to bone and cartilage, and you will never know what they would have been if left to mature normally. There is enough qualified evidence to prove the risks of early desexing. I need point this out no further.

Yep I would agree with that but I can see why a deposit may be non refundable if the breeder is providing something other than the pup at the time of deposit which would be saleable - such as their puppy pack or if the breeder is passing up sales because they think that one is taken. If someone pulls out at th elast minute then they have to pay extra for advertising etc to find a replacement sale. When I was breeding Ragdoll kittens I took non refundable deposits on my pet kittens. That was because if a kitten was going home as a pet it was desexed 2 weeks before it went home.That obviously meant that I couldnt then sell it as a breeding cat if the buyer changed their mind. A pet kitten back then was around $650 and a breeding kitten up to $2000. Sure, I can understand that the breeder may be left with an animal, however, that comes with the trade in my opinion. I would certainly ask for a deposit, without question, but I would not make it non-refundable. I can't even imagine it is legal to not refund the money if the sale goes through?? (sorry if this has been mentioned somehwere here already). But who says it has to come as a risk of the "trade" When I book a photographer I pay a non refundable deposit because Ive booked them for a certain day which has made them miss a potential job if I pull out. If I book an entertainer I have to pay them a non refundable deposit at the time I book them - could be a year in advance and its half of what they will be paid and then I have to pay them the full amount weeks before they even arrive.I dont get an option of a refund. If breeders are to behave in a business like fashion - and I agree they should, who is going to determine the terms of trade? Isnt it up to each of us to determine what conditions we will put on to take an order or fill an order, pre and after sales service and warranties? Isnt it then up to each of us as to how many we manufacture, what price we charge , where we sell them? Are we not able to decide our own business hours and how and when we will respond to enquiries? Whether we place a 7 day warranty or a 10 year warranty? I look on the net and animal rights propoganda tells me that a good breeder doesnt need to advertise - that they dont breed a litter unless they have definite orders for their puppies.Its a bad thing to advertise in newspapers or on those websites etc. Some breeders have a terrible time if they need to find homes for puppies after they are born in trying to find a way of selling them without getting bagged out because they were bad breeders and didnt have homes before they were bred. Yet we see one breeder who is taking orders before she goes into manufacture them and a "no wonder people go to BYB" Any one who has been breeding dogs for more than a minute knows that we can have a waiting list as long as your arm and "definite" orders until you go back to say you have a puppy for sale. Should I be judged as somehow un ethical if I live in a state where its O.K. not give out papers and I dont provide them and suit some one else's idea of terms of trade? Should a registered purebred breeder care if someone goes to a BYB? Not likely while ever we have more demand than supply So we cant have it both ways - if we are to behave in a business like fashion we get to say how our business will be run. If there is more supply than demand then Im sure breeders will adjust their business terms of trade to entice a greater part of the puppy buying market. You cant have it both ways - its either a hobby where we all act like clones and do as we are directed by what is generated as supposedly ethical or conventional behaviour or we determine our own terms of trade suited to our own needs and breeding programs. I agree with most you have said but disagree with the last line. I keep dogs as a hobby, this invariably does need some form of business like exchange if I have a litter as I cannot keep them all, however this is not my focus - am am not trying to build a business or turn a profit. The two do not need to be mutually exclusive. One can dictate the terms they enjoy their hobby and dog sports (and do not have to be a clone come that), and one can dictate how they choose to do business when and if it is required. Some breeders do however breed often enough each year they may come under the banner of business. In that instance it is no longer a hobby. But a black and white statement such as that last line cannot be applied to us all.

Hard to convey your tone but what do you mean EVEN pound animals? I take it to mean that in the overall scheme of things, priority and precedence should be given towards purebred, registered animals over byb animals and pound dogs. I would not condone ANY dog or cat be released from a pound undesexed. End of story. The bone growth has to be a secondary consideration. Yes, large pound animals do deserve a chance to grow correctly, but not at the risk of them having the ability to reproduce upon release/adoption, that would be grossly irresponsible and not under the ethos of "rescue". Yes I agree with this statement on cats. These breed prolifically and often are not contained in yards etc

I can see their point very clearly. The vast majority of dogs sold are not, or should not be bred from. Most of them going through shelters and pounds are mutts, and an incorrect growth rate on them won't matter much (it's not like you know what they'll grow up to look like), and is in fact much less of a worry than the very high chance of them having a litter of more mutts. And any breeds in danger of ending up as breeding fodder in puppy farms.......poodles, maltese, pugs, shih-tzu, bichons etc, are probably best desexed before being sold unless the breeder is 110% certain of the puppies future. I can completely understand early desexing in these cases and it's a matter of weighing up the chances of the dog being bred from in the future (high), vs the chances of the dog having some spey-related growth or health issues later in life (low). But my point as a breeder is that the RSPCA can then double dip in that when these early desexed dogs develop joint problems the finger of welfare is waving at us.."tho hast bred a dog with joint problems, time to ban the pure breeds" And then they are also on about cruelty..but they push for early desexing. I will point out this is not the cause of all joint problems but it would certainly factor in. Sorry GayleK..can't agree with you..can't be bothered arguing with you either.

I wonder though...is it the season? Or is the fact that they are a more mature dog by the time they have the season? Are they scatty heads prior to that first season because the hormone levels are changing and thus after a season the hormones all start to settle back down and then so does the dog? For myself, I get a bit frustrated with myself that I only seem 'normal' and 'well adjusted' about one week in every 4. I love that one week post period. The season as in puberty in a human triggers physical changes in a dog or girl. It fills us out, our hips get wider, our jaw bone widens, growth is regulated eg height and breadth. The hormones also trigger a readiness to breed. Having a first season is good prior to desexing so as the dog grows correctly. This is because the sex hormones regulate that growth. With the RSPCA and animal welfare pushing to desex baby puppies ie from 8 weeks, they are encouraging abnormal growth and potential developmental problems in the older dog. Proof, any vet knows this.

Funny ...many businesses take a non refundable deposits. If you commission a trailer or something to be manufactured. Many businesses also charge full fees for no show appointments Doctors, dentists and the like. You can book a holiday on an early saver fare, and it is often non refundable and unchangeable. I see no problem if it is agreed by two parties verbally or written that a deposit is non refundable. Buyers consent is in the exchange of money. After being stuffed around by change of mind buyers with my last litter who did not tell me they had gone elsewhere and I had turned people away and wasted weeks leading up to the litter mentoring them, I was stuck re advertising. There after I took a 20% non refundable "Holding" deposit (Which became part of the purchase price). ie .It was refundable if anything happened to said pup in my care, or if the vet check proved it unfit for the sale, but non refundable if the buyer changed their mind and wanted a sch-noodle instead. Their arms weren't broken, they wanted the dog reserved no one had a problem. To be a business you have to turn a profit (most breeders do not), and to be a worker bee and work for someone else..you have to get paid. Interesting how many out there there expect us to commit hours of our time for nothing, and shy away from a deposit which is not even 2 cartons of beer or a small grocery order. My holding deposit is a bond on my time, my effort, my knowledge and lastly the puppy.

I'm pleased to see some balance coming from a registered breeder. You're the kind of breeder I hoped to find via my way of approaching breeders. And I did. I've got a vested interest, because a breeder who puts finding a suitable home, at the top of her priorities, is a person likely to have pride & care in what she produces & nurtures. Especially when she's quite ready to say 'No' anywhere within the screening process. Frankly, I'm not going to waste my own time or anyone else's, until I find someone like this. 'Moving on' is a positive decision. It's this kind of breeder, I then recommend to good people who are looking for a puppy or a dog. If I've had positive dealings with the breeder, myself, I'm then prepared to be a reference for any such person I point in their direction. I have turned away plenty of unsuitable homes, and I certainly I felt the people who reserved puppies and then did not tell me they got somthing else were a lucky escape for my puppies. But it did not mean any less time wasted on my part, and it did mean some very good people missed out when I turned them away due to said puppies being reserved. It wont hurt to illustrate what breeders need to go through to 1. Find the right homes for puppies, 2. Sort the genuine inquires from the not so genuine. And it is not always a pleasant experience. SO WE ARE CAUTIOUS. On the other hand it is possible to meet the best of people also. I reply to all emails as a general rule, and usually ask the following questions, the answers may lead to further questions and a meeting or phone call. Do you own your home or rent. Do you have children, and or other pets, ages How would you house your pet Are you working Have you owned this breed / a dog before What do you plan to do with the dog? Have you previously taken a dog to obedience training I don't see how questions like these are unreasonable

Exactly..

Perth girl Breeders are also buyers and we need to go through all the leg work same as you.

.Ummm...most people just want to buy a puppy, not a lifelong relationship with it's breeder. Mentoring for show puppies, yes maybe, but mentoring for pets? Why? My pet buyers are free to contact me with any training questions or breed questions they may have. It is not a requirement but neither do I dump them the minute they have paid for their puppy. Many become good friends. The question above is pretty short sighted really. Most of the puppies a breeder sell are to pet homes and very few end up in the ring.

I agree. It seems some people believe buyers need to crawl and grovel in order to get a pup. I'd rather shop elsewhere. Breeders put a lot of time and effort in to raising the litter and get very attached to all the babies. We want what is best for them. These are our extended family. We have every right to check buyers..it is not different to someone wanting to foster or adopt a child..even rent a house - however in the case of dogs, once they are sold the fate of that pup is purely in the hands of the new owner. So many physical and emotional issues can happen to a dog in it's formative months that we need to try and vet out the good from the bad potential homes. Should we need to take a dog back for whatever reason..what state of mind will it be in if it has been abused, or never left the backyard during it's socialization phase? In addition, it is wise for a breeder to sell a puppy to someone they feel comfortable with, they are going to be a mentor for many years to come. In saying all this..I will reply to the majority of emails but in brief ie, "Sorry I have nothing available now", unless I have put out a litter notice inviting inquiry.

Do your research first. Check out their website. Write down names of dogs of theirs you like and want to ask about. Don't come straight in expecting to be invited over, Breeders properties are not petting zoos. And there are public liability risks for breeders. Your interaction would be limited. Breeders that breed one or two litters a year will barely cover costs, often work full time , maintain a property often acerage, a kennel, exercise and train multiple dogs a day, compete and in amongst all that try and squeeze in time to cook for ourselves, our dogs and shower early enough for half hour of TV before bed. We do not have time to pander to general emails that arrive in Spam proportions, and often seek breed and training advise that can be googled. And the common doozie is...."Tell me why a (insert Breed) is good for my family" So rather than risk getting your email seen as spam, ring. Avoid Weekends, they may be competing at a show or trial. If they pick up, ask them if it is a good time to talk. If you get an answering machine, ring back later yourself. You want a purebred, thats good, but cut some slack and remember we are not a business, and we do deal with a lot of time wasters and this makes us wary.

Yes, Ask for a deposit.

I am very big on keeping them involved too, that is why it hurts when you put in the time and commitment to the people as well and they shaft you.

I never used to but I do now. My last litter I had people contacting me and wanting a puppy and as such I put them on my waiting list and spent many hours per person answering questions on the breed, training etc. The pups were born and there were puppies enough to suit all requests (at birth you only know colour and gender but for a pet this is usually the starting point of most peoples request). They wanted me to reserve them a puppy and those that were available I did. At this point I was getting more replies and as I had reserved these pups the new people went elsewhere. Puppies were nearly 3 weeks old and suddenly 3 of the buyers who had been taking up my time for months went quiet (all from the same region of the state). So I enquired how they were travelling and found out they had went and bought something else. There had been a couple of backyard litters where they could pick up the puppies sooner . I doubt I would have been told lest I asked. Luckily I quickly found two more good homes for 2 but this time I asked for a $200.00 (20% of total price) Deposit. This was to be refundable should the pup die, have something come to light that would affect its suitability as a pet with it's 6 week vet check, or have an unsuitable temperament for the type of owners, but if the owners changed their mind and wanted a schoodle it was nonrefundable. I spent $250 further advertising my remaining pup - and in this rejecting at least 3 unsuitable buyers, being left out of pocket by the initial time wasters, and spending many more hours working with new people and meeting them. So yes taking a deposit is a wise thing as it at least shows some true commitment on the buyers part.

Goats Milk, Preferably from a dairy, but you can get it in a long life container from Woolworths

The main worry for Australian purebreds is that our ANKC has an agreement to automatically accept anything that comes from the UK. Therefore if the UK is driven to start cross breeding their purebreds..guess what comes to Australia. Anyone watch the Bionic vet that was on TV recently...plenty of very unhealthy crossbreds with major issues shown on that in the UK recently too.

Society today is too wrapped up in technology and losing it's ability to interact with and understand animals.

Very interesting

This is a good link with lots of information. Like this Current Descendants of the Dalmatian Pointer Cross are at the 12th generation. In the 12th generation, the Pointer is one of 4,096 dogs, thereby contributing 0.0244% of the genetic material in that generation to the next generation - the 11th generation. From the perspective of the entire 12-generation pedigree, the Pointer is one of 8,190 dogs and contributes 0.0122% of the genetic material to the progeny. These percentages appear miniscule when framed in comparison to the sire and the dam of a litter that each contributes 50% of their genetic material to their get. They are the same about the bob tailed boxer .they are up to about 12 generations just here in Australia but they still carry on about them being mongrels. Mongrel dogs or ignorant dog breeders? And so they are. I have no probs if a crossing is done for a health benefit, properly researched and with a breed that is similar in construction and temperament to the breed to be crossed. The Bob tail Boxer was a cross with a corgi, and an admitted cosmetic flight of fancy. They were accepted into the UKs Studbooks going even against their own rules and the first dog to Australia came out with gaps on its pedigree. In addition the Bob tail that we are now stuck with in the breed is not an original Boxer trait, and as this is not being bred out but rather retained I will never see them as anything but Borgis and crossbreds. This is designer dog breeding if it were breed development the Borgi would have it's own breed category separate from the German Boxers Gene pool. If a crossing had been done to obtain help eliminate say ARVC in boxers I would not have a problem. Steve I am actually quite disgusted that you of all people can't see the difference. The Borgi was never created with the welfare of the breed in mind. They are here now, but they should have their own breed subcategory - English Bobtail Boxer Those of us who don't want to play roulette with our puppies tails have no want of this misshapen gene.