Steve

Again I ask - what is supposed to be the magic number? If I put a DA in to own 20 dogs would I still have to run the gauntlet - not just when the DA is being applied for but if I get approval? Can you reasonably see why any potential or current puppy farmer would comply with any laws which gave their game away based on the fact that even applying gets you this kind of publicity and attention? I personally know purebred breeders - not our members who own well over 20 dogs.I know one in particular who would own 100 plus chi's and she is well respected within the purebred dog community and is a conformation judge. One you know Mita owns 30 plus dogs and does it all by the book. Is 30 O.K. but 50 not O.K? Is purebred O.K. but not cross breds? Who should feel safe to put in a DA without getting the sort of things which have happened here? How do we encourage people who own more than 5 dogs to own up to owning them ?

O.K. I agree But those things need to be addressed differently to a development application. And I also get the basic feeling that anything done to stop even one is a good thing but my point is that the current proposal from the RSPCA - which Vicdogs and animal lib have said they support calls [without exception] on mandatory laws- that would make puppy farmers - or all breeders do exactly what these people attempted to do. So surely when they do what the proposal is asking them to do its up to the council to decide whether they have covered environmental issues and other considerations needed for all people who put in a DA. If they had of kept the proposal up they may have been knocked back or they may have been able to show they will do what ever the council feel is necessary to be able to operate. Anyone watching what just happened will think twice about putting in a DA proposal for 50 dogs and that to me is exactly the opposite to what we are asking them to do. This may be seen as a victory for a blow against puppy farmers but in reality its a hard hit against any idea that breeders whether they are puppy farmers or not will do anything to tell anyone where they are or what they are doing. Forget about any idea of licensing or putting their street addresses on a website. Do you really think that people who have decided to breed dogs for a living are going to simply not do it anymore ? What figure is a good figure for a breeder to apply for? At what point do you have to worry about having all this attention focused on what you want to do ? 10,15,20,30,40? Mita I agree with all you say but thats not something that needs to be considered - or could be considered in a Development application. These are things which have to be covered in codes and state laws, POCTAA etc. - and then how do you police them? I just think you would be better off to let them go through the motions and apply and be considered under equitable standards for their approvals for their DA and then at least you know where they are and you know to keep an eye on them.

http://www.newspaperhouse.com.au/index.php...-love-wins.html This news report says they did.

From their website http://www.dogsvictoria.org.au/assets/pdf/...ssion-paper.pdf Breeding for the improvement of the breed Each member of the VCA is bound by the VCA Code of Practice. We are aware that some members have adopted breeding practices that are contrary to the Code of Practice, and that are not in accordance with the Objectives / Statement of Purposes of the VCA. Breeding practices that are ‘not what we are about’. If we continue to ignore these members and their objectionable breeding, can we continue to claim to be a responsible organisation that should be accepted as an authority on dogs ? Two practices that members find most objectionable are as follows: 1. A member who breeds on a scale that does not fit with “primarily for the purpose of improving the quality and / or working ability”. We refer to this member as a puppy farmer. 2. A member who registers ‘phantom bitches’ to circumvent Clause 20.1.14 of the Code of Practice. The third litter within 18 months from a bitch is registered against the phantom bitch so as to avoid prosecution under that Clause. Puppy farming We cannot regulate to control puppy farming until we first establish the criteria for what we consider to be acceptable breeding practices. We agree that breeding should be planned, therefore can we document an example / guide? If so we can then expect a breeder to document their plan, and produce it on demand ? We are offended by large numbers of puppies – so should we set a limit on the number of litters per year ? Would such a limit be fair across all breeds ? For example a limit of three litters could equate to 30 puppies for a Boxer breeder, but only 9 puppies for a French Bulldog breeder. Also, would we penalise 4 litters in one year if none had been produced in the previous year ? Or would we average the number over a given period, for example any three year period ? Should we limit the number of puppies ? Again fairness across all breeds has to be considered – a limit of 20 puppies might equate to 1 ½ litters of Great Danes but 7 litters of Pugs. We currently limit the number of litters a bitch can produce – should we limit the use of a stud dog ? Should we limit the number of breeds any one member can breed with ? Puppy farmers often have five or more breeds, and the breeds change with the market. How many breeds can a member effectively manage under an acceptable breeding program ? Would the number depend upon such factors as the size of the dog, or the size of the litters of that breed. What other factors would need to be considered ? Should a breeder be required to demonstrate the effectiveness of their program ? For example a specific number of titles ? How would we view a breeder who shows regularly and successfully, breeds excessively, and uses the proceeds of their breeding to finance the importation of good specimens of the breed ? How do we define the difference between commercial and hobby breeding ? Phantom bitches How do we address this problem ? Should we require all breeding stock to be DNA profiled ? Should we require all puppies to be microchipped prior to registration ? If DNA profiling was required, when would it be done ? What form of positive identification would be required ? How would the profiles be recorded and stored ? Should the VCA conduct random inspections of members kennels and breeding ? Reg 3.7.7. empowers to VCA to do so but what would the inspection be gauged against ? The solution ? Clearly the organisation has to establish criteria against which a member can be assessed to determine whether their breeding practices are acceptable to the organisation. Part of such criteria must clearly identify the difference between hobby and commercial breeding. If we try to purge the organisation of puppy farmers without such measurable criteria we face a significant legal risk. Establishing such a criteria will be difficult, but can we afford not to ? Your thoughts and comments would be greatly appreciated. Lionel Bleakley 25 May 2010

You're preaching to the converted ,however the people who wrote submissions against these people - RSPCA and Vicdogs are the very people who are calling for a mandatory code which includes them doing it the way these people attempted to. Noone watching that will stick their head up and try to get an approval and will instead simply do what ever they want - just as most of them do now. What are Vicdogs doing getting involved in this anyway ? Many of their own members own 50 plus dogs. Its not so long ago that this was seen to be a good thing for registered breeders. Some of the best in the country owned more than 50 purebred dogs and many still do.

The RSPCA are calling for people to be up front , traceable and monitored in their proposals on the table right now with their suggestions for a mandatory code. If thats what THEY want then what has just happened is not condusive to that ever occurring.

Vic Dogs has circulated a request to all breed clubs to tell them what they think of these proposals for breeding ages of bitches. Its my advice for what its wiorth that everyone should write to them and tell them to leave it all as it is. That is whether YOU think your breed should be made to wait this long or not. Why ? Because its one more decision which will be taken from breeders and personally I think that sux. Quote. Minimum Breeding Age for Bitches Minimum age per breed at which a bitch can be mated Note: Minimum Breeding Age is the age at which a bitch may be mated. Your response by Monday 25th October 2010 would be appreciated. 12 Months Affenpinscher Airedale Terrier Australian Cattle Dog
 Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog Australian Silky Terrier
 Bichon Frise 
Border Terrier 
Boston Terrier British Bulldog Bull Terrier Bull Terrier [Miniature]
 Chihuahua [ all varieties] 
 Chinese Crested Dog
 Cocker Spaniel
 Cocker Spaniel [ American ] Collie [Rough and Smooth] Dachshund [ all varieties ] English Springer Spaniel
 English Toy Terrier French Bulldog
 German Hunting Terrier
 German Spitz [ Klein ]
 German Spitz [ Mittel ] 
 Griffon Bruxellois
 Havanese 
Italian Greyhound
 Jack Russell Terrier 
Japanese Chin 
Japanese Spitz 
King Charles Spaniel Labrador Retriever 
Lhasa Apso
 Lowchen 
Maltese
 Miniature Pinscher 
Papillon Pekingese
Pomeranian Portugese Podengo Pug
Schnauzer [ all varieties ] Shetland Sheepdog 
Schipperke Tenterfield Terrier
 Tibetan Spaniel Weimaraner Weimaraner [Longhair] Welsh Corgi [Cardigan and Pembroke]
 Yorkshire Terrier
 16 Months Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Golden Retriever 18 Months Afghan Hound Akita Inu Alaskan Malamute
 American Staffordshire Terrier 
Australian Kelpie
 Australian Terrier 
Basenji Basset
Basset Fauve de Bretagne Beagle Bearded Collie 
Bedlington Terrier 
Belgian Shepherd Dog [ all varieties ]
 Bergamasco Shepherd Dog
 Bloodhound
 Bluetick Coonhound Border Collie Borzoi
 Bouvier des Flandres Boxer 
Bracco Italiano 
Briard
 Brittany Cairn Terrier
 Canaan Dog
 Cesky Terrier 
Chesapeake Bay Retriever Chow Chow 
Curly Coated Retrieve r
Dalmatian 
Dandie Dinmont Terrier Deerhound 
Dobermann Dogue De Bordeaux 
Dutch Shepherd 
Eurasier
 Field Spaniel 
Finnish Lapphund
 Finnish Spitz 
Flat Coated Retriever
 Foxhound Fox Terrier [ Smooth and Wire ] 
German Pinscher
 German Shepherd Dog German Shorthaired and Wirehaired Pointer
 Glen of Imaal
 Gordon Setter 
Grand Basset Griffon Vendeen
 Greyhound 
Hamiltonstovare 
Harrier
 Ibizan Hound 
Irish Red & White Setter
 Irish Setter Irish Terrier
Irish Water Spaniel Italian Corso
 Italian Spinone
 Keeshond
 Kerry Blue Terrier
 Lakeland Terrier 
Lagotto Romagnolo
 Large Munsterlander
 Manchester Terrier 
Norfolk Terrier 
Norwegian Elkhound 
Norwick Terrier 
Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever 
Old English Sheepdog 
Otterhound 
Parson Russell Terrier 
Peruvian Hairless Dog
 Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen 
Pharaoh Hound 
Polish Lowland Sheepdog 
Pointer Poodle [ Miniatures and Toys ] 
Portuguese Water Dog 
Puli
 Pumi Rhodesian Ridgeback 
Saluki 
Samoyed 
 Scottish Terrier 
Sealyham Terrier 
Shar Pei
 Shih Tzu 
Shiba Inu Siberian Husky
Skye Terrier 
Sloughi 
Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier Staffordshire Bull Terrier
 St Bernard Sussex Spaniel
 Swedish Lapphund Swedish Vallhund 
White Swiss Shepherd Dog Tibetan Mastiff
Tibetan Terrier Welsh Springer Spaniel 
Welsh Terrier
 West Highland White Terrier Whippet
 Xoloitzcuintle [ Miniature ] 20 Months Australian Shepherd Bernese Mountain Dog 22 Months Mastiff
 Rottweiler 24 Months Anatolian Shepherd Dog 
Black Russian Terrier Bullmastiff 
Canadian Eskimo Dog
 Central Asian Shepherd Dog Clumber Spaniel English Setter
Great Dane Hungarian Vizsla
 Hungarian Wirehaired Vizsla 
Kangal
 Komondor 
Kuvasz
 Leonberger 
Maremma Sheepdog Neapolitan Mastiff Newfoundland
 Norwegian Buhund Poodle [ Standard ] 
Pyrenean Mastiff 
Pyrenean Mountain Dog
 Spanish Mastiff 
Xoloitzcuintle [ Intermediate and Standard ]

Sorry should have said Australian RSPCA.

But do you really think anyone else who is considering doing the right thing and applying for a DA is going to feel all warm and snuggly and want to comply with the laws after seeing this?

One minute we're hearing people yell they want them out of the cupboard and putting in DA's and nice and easy to find. Following the rules and wanting mandatory codes to make them do exactly that Then when they do we do all we can to stop them. What breed were they? Chi's or Great Danes? If they go this way and apply via council they then have to comply with the regs for breeding establishments and so the dogs cant be kept in poor conditions. All this does is send a clear message to anyone thinking of doing the right thing to shut up and do it without telling anyone you're doing it. Id rather see someone come in with 50 dogs out inthe open than 300 out the back of the boonies doing all they can to avoid detection.

So is there something here I don't know ? Why stop someone who wants a development application for 50 dogs?

So how do we get a look at what they used in their submissions?

How sad.

This was one of the lowest acts the R$PCA have done, poor Clifford a Pitbull never had a chance. Poor Clifford was thrown from a car in Sydney in 2004, emaciated and injured he was taken to the R$PCA the society that claims to care for all creatures great and small. The R$PCA said please donate as much as you can to help poor Clifford and raised about $3500, then announced this poor dog had suddenly become aggressive or some BS to that effect and PTS poor Clifford and kept the money. :rolleyes: Why was poor Clifford PTS ? Because the R$PCA does not rehome Pitbulls that's why. Shame, Shame, Shame R$PCA. thanks for explaining Cliiford to me. What a sad story. :D It's amazing how money can change things. I'm sure when the idea of the RSPCA was first thought of it's intentions were good but as we know, money corrupts. Actually , historically the RSPCA was formed to get animals off the street. The belief was that dead was less suffering than wandering the streets savaging for food. This fitted in with the pollies of the day who also wanted stray dogs off the street so they were backed heavily in that regard. Rehoming to people other than their owners them is a relatively recent development, so too is private rescue.

What was in the formal objections ?

One of my boys is a Maramacdonald lad too - I dont think mine has ever been that clean though he lives with the sheep.

n strangles can be "rare" if horse owners never let their horse drink from public troughs, vaccinate, and dont let them graze while at shows so they dont get contaminated by infected water or grazing where an infected horse may have been. ive had horses for nearly 50 years and the only one to ever get strangles came home from the stud with it. and surpise suprise, with the above stratagies none of my others caught it from her. exactly and where does a "collar" go? round the neck and the bottom of one runs under the jaw.. soo some moran inspector was just as much knowledge as the morans in australia decided it was from a too tight collar? n yes some horses do wear collars. although not many, its done to stop them windsucking. as well many big studs put them on all the mares with a number so they can easily identify them. gather in the case of that guys horses, it was simply strangles and yep they look pretty dreaful but i can tell you if it doesnt burst there then the outcome is far worse because all that muck goes down into the lungs and not many survive that, that one the vets call bastard strangles and most die. so the sores are a good not a bad sign. but hey, who are us horse people ? no nice person would keep a horse and make a slave of it would they? so its open season on such cruel people surely . dont know where the link is but its round here somewhere. the megalong riding place was forced to destroy its retired horses despite hundreds of acres they could live out their lives happily, because someone in the rscpa decided they must die. charged the owners for failure to worm despite years of account records of regularly doing just that, and used the FACT that within days horses are reinfested ,soooo simply came back a few weeks before the next due worming. took samples. (of course there was going to be a posative count,) thats why they are wormed regulary.. the rspca prefer SOFT targets. look what happens when they actually take on someone who can afford to fight back? didnt they totaly muff it???? poor diddums, too many soft targets so wernt prepared for facing live ammo? look at the cruelty of the ruth downes case? they shot every one of her cows despite the fact the feed store was there with a truckload of feed for them and was regulary delivering feed. it was full drought, they were dairy breed cattle which DO NOT LOOK LIKE BEEF cattle. they turned away the driver then used the excuse to shoot them because she had no feed on the place? well if you refused to let the produce store unload the feed ordered then how can it be on the property? then theres the dairy in victoria. the owners arrived home as the inspector was finishing shooting their cows they had foolishly put to graze near a public road. someone decided they looked skinny, odd that, high production fresiens tend to look like that.. but hey,, inspectors can "form the opinon" and thats all they have to do by law, in that instance his opinion was he shoot them immediately even before making any contact with the owner. fait accomplai before they could even come home. the husaband died of a heart attack not long after, his widow believes from the shock and distress of that day, 3 generations of breeding some of the best freisens in victoria gone. no warning, no appeal. do they fabricate evidence? well i have a letter from richard amery dated `14 june 2001. which says "without proper records of your own or or veterinarian, showing that stringy was under veterinary care the inspectors could only rely on their own judgement. in this case inspector donnelly decided that stringys best interests would be served by proper veterinary examination and diagnostic work up at the rspca shelter". very interesting that. since in the two weeks between the first visit by donnelly when i gave him my vets phone number he never once availed himself of the opportunity to speak to my vet, so how did he reach a conclusion as given to the then minister for agriculture AFTER THE EVENT? HE DID FINALLY speak to my vet, WHEN MY VET PHONED HIM TO DEMAND THE DOGS RETURN. (ie already, stolen, taken, seized past tense?) then and only then did he learn my vet had made the almost fatal mistake (for my dog) of not writing in his records when there is nothing wrong with the dog. (interestingly, the only vets ive met who put in their records when they see the dog and its fine and write that, have already learned after a simlar previous altercation with the rscpa?) since when can you say you acted on information gained AFTER THE EVENT??????????????????? N SINCE WHEN DOES BLUE GENE ALOPECIA need carving the victum up to find something chargable? he was returned with a torn trachea and pnemonia . THAT IS IN HIS VETS RECORDS. N IT COST ANOTHER 600 to save him from the the conditon in which he was returned from the rscpa's "care"? thats on top of all the charges for the "testing " done by them before they would deign to return him. donate to the Animal Welfare League, they actually do care about the animals. not publicity seeking at any cost Donate to MDBA Pacers here we're not seeking publicity at any cost and we care about the animals and the owners.

Suggestions are good

13

definitely

Well done! 14 poo factories! Ive had 13 in a Maremma litter and at 3 weeks its pretty full on. Trouble is that's too many to keep. Ive got a maremma litter cooking too - due in about 10 days so Ill try and equal you

If the info has provided no way to determined how or what the dog died from: She cant prove that there was anything there at the time you sold the dog which would have killed it any more than you can say it died from fluid on the lungs or anything else. I dont think you need to see legal people. You sold a dog that was healthy and happy - fit for the purpose it was sold and no one can prove other wise. It died - thats sad. But no way has she any right to refund after a month of ownership. Could have been about a million things.

Yesterday was a beautiful day and I had the beagles around me enjoying the sunlight and chasing each other around the yard obviously also enjoying the warm sunshine for a change. We had lit a big fire out in one of our paddocks to clean up some old fence posts etc so I had to drive out to check that all was well. I walked inside from where my son and I had been sitting on the front porch to get the keys. As I came back out I checked to see that he was still playing with the baby beagle which was due to fly home today. I start the car and begin to drive off. Im not sure if I saw and heard him yelling before or after I felt the lump under the car tyre but the poor little mite has wriggled out of his arms and run out to the car and Ive run the puppy over! Small mercy is that I did a good job of it and he died straight away - at least he didnt suffer. By now the kid is hysterical, the rest of the family have come running and everyone is yelling. Took me a couple of hours to settle down and pluck up enough courage to ring the poor new owner to tell her that the new baby she has been anticipating and getting excited over isnt coming home. RIP Little Vader. What a bugger. ;)

There will be lots of things you can get involved in a little or a lot. There is no pressure on anyone to commit more than they are happy with. Just the fact that you are interested in supporting it is great. Julie

Sorry I think having breed clubs decide who should and who shouldnt breed is a horrible idea. Many of us wont join breed clubs for numerous reasons.