Steve

In the case of the OP its pretty obvious she is not very experienced and has not explained why she would be more responsible for a patella problem than the owner - which is the first thing you need to clarify. Before you work out what you need to do you have to know whether it really is something you should be accountable for. You need to see written vet reports and have your vet look at them, you need to see accounts and don't take the owners word for it all - then if you can see that its something you should be holding up your hand for and your vet advises you that its your blue - do what you have to do quickly and nicely.

Surely if the breeder explains at point of sale that its not possible to guarantee these things way into the future due to it being a live animal the owner has a choice in whether they still want to buy it and if they want to hold out for a breeder who gives a different guarantee its their right to do so. These things are beyond the breeders control so why is that not " you are not entitled to a remedy if you change your mind about a purchase or if the problem is due to something beyond the seller’s control. How is it possible for the seller - the breeder to have any control over these things especially when they are known to be impacted by things other than genetics? As long as we dont " provide an ‘express’ warranty or an additional promise about the quality, condition, performance or characteristics of the item purchased' then the guarantee which is mandatory in Victoria and NSW via the codes of practice should be sufficient to comply with consumer law - Australia wide.

Page 10. If there is a problem – a consumer’s right to a remedy If you have purchased a pet and something goes wrong, you may have rights against the seller if they failed to meet one or more of the consumer guarantees. Generally you are not entitled to a remedy if you change your mind about a purchase or if the problem is due to something beyond the seller’s control. However, if the seller provided an ‘express’ warranty or an additional promise about the quality, condition, performance or characteristics of the item purchased, they must uphold that guarantee. Your entitled remedy will depend on the issue and whether the problem can be classified as major or minor. Effectively, a major problem is when you wouldn’t have bought the pet if you had known the nature and extent of the problem prior to purchase; for example, an animal has a terminal or serious health issue. In this case, the consumer has the right to choose which remedy the seller will provide. This will either be to: – have the problem with your pet corrected for example, with veterinary treatment and/or medication; – return your pet to the seller and have it replaced with another one; or – return your pet to the seller and have your money refunded. When the problem is minor, the seller can choose which remedy they will provide. It is recommended that you attempt to negotiate an outcome that both you and the seller can agree to. If there continues to be a disagreement, Consumer Protection can provide advice and help you resolve the dispute. I would say if the dog is clear of health issues at time of sale and something developed at a later date especially something which is polygenic then that is out of the breeder's control and there can be no claim. Note also they don't get to have a replacement or refund if they keep the dog.

NSW according to the codes of practice for pet shops and breeders. Guarantees 10.1.5 If within 3 days an animal (except a fish) is not acceptable to the purchaser for any reason, the pet shop proprietor is required to take the animal back and refund 50% of the purchase price of the animal. 10.1.6 The guarantee required by Clause 10.1.5 must be displayed in a prominent position on the wall of the shop. 10.1.7 If an animal dies or is euthanased as a result of a disease that is traceable to the point of sale and is verified by an appropriate authority such as a veterinarian, the person in charge will refund the purchase price or offer a replacement animal with the same guarantee. 10.2.4 If within 7 days an animal is not acceptable to the purchaser for health reasons, excluding injury, and the complaint is supported by a veterinarian, the pet shop proprietor and the owner should negotiate in good faith to achieve an equitable outcome. Victoria Guarantee If an animal is unacceptable to a new owner because of health, or other reasons that are supported by a statement from a veterinarian, within seven days of purchase, the establishment must take the animal back and refund all monies or offer a replacement animal of the same breed and comparable quality with the same guarantee. If an animal is returned within three days for any other reason, the establishment will refund 75% of the purchase price or offer a replacement animal with the same guarantee. If the animal dies or is euthanased from a disease that is traceable to the point of sale, the establishment must refund the purchase price or offer a replacement animal with the same guarantee.

Hard to see how some one can buy a washing machine - refuse a refund because they want to keep it , clock up repair bills 5 times what the machine costs with their mate who owns a repair shop and get to claim the bill and keep the machine - rather unreasonable to me.

Unfortunately for breeders, the consumer laws in W.A. are very much to the advantage of the owner of the dog. The right of choice for repair, refund or replace sits entirely with the purchaser of the dog and the breeder can only hope that the person concerned is reasonable and fair-minded. The owner of the dog can choose which vet the dog sees and whether or not a second opinion is sought. If the owner is offered a refund with the requirement that the dog is returned to the breeder, they have the right to refuse the offer and then they usually go for the repair option which is often far more expensive than a refund of purchase price. Is this recent ? Consumer law is Australian consumer law now and all shoppers in Australia have the same rights with all sellers having the same responsibility. Based on this no one could ever afford to breed dogs - if people can just decide they want to have the dog repaired at enormous cost and the breeder has no choice but to get the bill! No wonder breeders sell puppies to pet shops!

Agreed and I wouldn't be parting with any money unless I was 100% convinced it was my responsibility either.

If you dont put it in writing then you can be had for not telling them and ethically I cant imagine why you wouldnt - if they know then they can ensure the dog is not in that position again and they cant come back and say they didnt know - though if it is declared dangerous you cant rehome at all in some states.

A breeder cant just go by what the puppy buyer is telling them either. When something goes wrong puppy buyers often only hear part of what the vet is saying and or they dont understand so you have to get a written account from the vet of exactly what the problem is and what they think the cause is and the action is that they think should be taken. Many many times when you ask a puppy buyer to go back to the vet and get it in writing or ask that your vet communicate with their vet things radically change. The whole thing is volatile because the owner is emotional and not always rational and straight out some deliberately leave bits out or add somethings in to try to get money So to expect a breeder to simply say O.K. after a call from their puppy buyer without asking for a second opinion or even a written first opinion etc is asking too much too.

Not necessarily. Just because you request they see your vet doesnt mean you are putting your hand up to pay for it .you may do so after the vet has informed you its something you should be held accountable for but not before. Whether they are legally responsible depends on answers to things which are not given here. If its proven that the breeder sold a dog which was not fit for the purpose for which it was sold at the time of sale then they must refund repair or exchange - ordinarily after 10 months - no they are not responsible but that will be impacted by the contract - if for example they have said they would cover such things for a longer time frame than a normal sale contract via consumer law would go. If they are legally required to compensate [unlikely] then they can say no dog no refund if they want to.

Actuall Ive just locked her up and given her some dill pills as there is thunder around and here we go again.

If I thought it would make any difference Id lead a campaign to have them banned but there are too many who dont care what they do to animals and they bring in paying spectators for the local shows. All around us there are horses and other dogs sheep etc they must all suffer like mad when it happens.This Maremma bitch though just hasnt seemed to have recovered this year at all and is truly shell shocked - no idea what to do with her. Poor girl. Have you thought about rehoming her as a pet, away from the source of her fear? Or even seeing if she can go on a sabbatical to someone else's place? Cant do that I love her and wont let her face her fears on her own - that probably makes little sense but Id rather be here with her than send her to someplace she isnt familiar with. Ive got some sedatives to give her next year but problem is she is reacting to any loud noise or gun shot - even the door banging set her off again so you dont know when to give her the sedative before the event if you cant predict the event. Bloody fireworks have done her in

If I thought it would make any difference Id lead a campaign to have them banned but there are too many who dont care what they do to animals and they bring in paying spectators for the local shows. All around us there are horses and other dogs sheep etc they must all suffer like mad when it happens.This Maremma bitch though just hasnt seemed to have recovered this year at all and is truly shell shocked - no idea what to do with her.

Could you check what their specials are like, that would be great :) Steve - That is horrible. I have no idea why fireworks even exist in towns. I have never been here on show night before and had no idea fireworks were on. It just baffles me why they would let them off so close to houses in the centre of town. Your poor dog. To be fair Im not really in the centre of town but neither is the show ground we have a fence line we share across the back of my property which is a kilometre long and where they set up the fireworks it just happens to all happen over my back yard.

Yep legally she doesn't have to pay unless they return the dog - ethically in my opinion if she is prepared to pay a refund because she thinks its her responsibility then she should do so and allow them to keep the dog.

My property runs along the fence line of the showground and every year they let off the fireworks you would think they are aiming them at our back porch. Any way as you can imagine my Maremma go nuts and run around like mad to protect their sheep and us - by the time the fireworks are over they have the sheep in the furthest corner facing away from the fireworks - but one. She is 9 years old and the Maremma best sheep dog ever but each year she has gotten worse. Like you one year it took us hours to find her but we are at a point now where she is literally shell shocked. This year in August even when she heard them setting up the rides etc she was starting to salivate and jumped fences to get back to the house - left her sheep and lambs to do so. By mid afternoon she was under my computer desk a mess and when the fireworks started she was a screaming pile of fur and lost cause for hours. Problem is that she hasnt recovered still. She wont stay in the paddock and as soon as she is put there she is digging under or climbing over to get back to the house even over barbed wire which cut her tummy. Any bang or gunshot starts up the panic all over again. Yesterday it was thunder and started her again. Someone loaned me a scary noises DVD but seeing her so stressed and upset when we play it has put that out of the question for me - it may work but the poor thing has to go through hell when its on and I cant do it to her. Something terrible just takes over her and she has no control and othing we do makes any difference until its all over . Im at a point where Ive admitted Ive lost the use of her as a sheep guardian so she is now in the house yard all the time but the house dog [ pet Maremma] hates her so that's a whole new challenge too. Nothing I can do about it the fireworks will be back next year and I cant see her getting any better. Poor Jade.

Here is the problem. there is so much expectation and crap said about what a "GOOD BREEDER " will or should do that unless its all spelled out in writing there is a potential for problems. Puppy buyers have an expectation which the breeder is unaware of and there isnt enough communication to clarify it all so when the crap hits the fan its on for young and old. In the past few months Ive dealt with someone complaining about a breeder for something her 9 and a half year old dog has developed which may or may not be caused by genetics. She has had the benefit of the use of the breeder for advice and support and had quite a good relationship for 9 years - then came back and demanded a full refund.When she didnt get it she saw this as a sign the breeder didnt care and that she cared more about money than what she had bred and has told the whole world about what a mongrel the breeder is. So each breeder needs to clarify what they will and will not guarantee and for how long and what they will do in the event something happens because some puppy buyers assume that if a breeder says I guarantee against genetic diseases that it means something altogether different to what the breeder had in mind . When the breeder says they need them to see their own vet or get a second opinion or if they determine that its too long ago or that it may have been caused because the dog is grossly over weight the puppy buyer doesn't get it because all along they had a different idea about how it would go if there was an issue. Another one has complained because they bought a dog 18 months ago and now they dont want it any more as they are moving - breeder said she would take it back but when the buyer found out they would need to pay transport to have her do so - game on and its a fight to behold. The buyer thought the breeder would buy back the dog for the original purchase price and pay to get it home. Big fireworks there.

Another point here - hobby breeders are not able to insure themselves against this - but the buyer is. If breeders explain that they can only guarantee that the pup is healthy and fit for the purpose for which it is sold and that if the buyer requires insurance that if something like this happens they will be covered for expenses that they should take out insurance and then choice is on the buyer to pay for that insurance - or perhaps breeders should double the sale price of their puppies and invest half to cover such things if the buyer wants these type of guarantees. Some of our MDBA breeders pay for 12 months insurance in advance on all of their pups and include the cost into the purchase price of the pup.

I think it should be under 18 and it seems to me that hobby breeders including those who are back yard breeders are not affected

So you lose the right to use your own trusted vet if a problem arises when you buy a dog from you as a breeder? Seems slightly unfair to me and I hope that's made known at time of purchase... It would certainly impact my decision. You cant expect to have a right to have the breeder pay when they have no say over who does the work and certainly before they give approval for you to go ahead and clock up the bill that they will pay for . You don't loose your right to use your own vet but if the breeder says they wont pay for your vet and you continue to use them you cant come back and hand them the bill either. Sorry I should have been clearer! I wouldn't expect them to pay the extra, if I wanted to use my more expensive vet then so be it. My choice. I took the comment to say if the owner decided to use another vet in this instance they had no claim to keep the dog. No - and Im speaking legally not ethically for a minute. If an owner wants a refund then there is a requirement that if they get the refund they must return the dog if that is what the breeder demands. Personally ethically if I as a breeder felt that I should pay the refund because I accepted it as my responsibility then I would pay it and not require the dog to be returned. the only time a breeder can demand return of the dog is prior to payment of a refund As horrible as many see it dogs are property and when you buy a dog its the same as when you buy a washing machine. The washing machine manufacturer cant afford to have people ducking off to their own repairers without talking to them first to see if they will pay costs and if they give you a refund they keep the product. Do the sums. Approx 25 % of Golden Retrievers statistically get HD no matter what the breeders do to try to eliminate it .So if a breeder breeds 20 puppies a year for 5 years - odds are around 25 of them will develop HD. If all of those puppy buyers come back after they have been to their own vet and hit the breeder with their bills of $5000 each and expect them to pay when they havent said they would thats around 125000 dollars which is less than the breeder received when they sold all of their 100 puppies in the first place.

Same as HD - some caused by congenital deformity which probably is genetic others poly genic can be caused by jumping off beds, an injury, diet weight etc.

So you lose the right to use your own trusted vet if a problem arises when you buy a dog from you as a breeder? Seems slightly unfair to me and I hope that's made known at time of purchase... It would certainly impact my decision. You cant expect to have a right to have the breeder pay when they have no say over who does the work and certainly before they give approval for you to go ahead and clock up the bill that they will pay for . You don't loose your right to use your own vet but if the breeder says they wont pay for your vet and you continue to use them you cant come back and hand them the bill either.

Yep they can if the purchaser wants a refund. So we all assume that because the dog has a patella problem at 10 months this is the result of something the breeder should be held responsible for in the first place? Patella problems don't just happen for a genetic issue. Consumers do want more but that doesnt mean that they get to buy an animal and clock up massive bills and expect the breeder will pay or refund etc when it isnt their responsibility. They do get more and expect that the breeder has done what they can to lower risks but its not possible for the risks to be completely eliminated and they should know this before they buy. As a breeder what am I to do use only money I get from other sources to breed dogs and put any money that comes in - not to cover my expenses but to invest somewhere in case someone wants their money back indefinitely into the future in case its something that was bred in? doesnt seem very fair to me.

1.Puppy buyers cant just go off and contract a vet to do work on their dog and expect the breeder to pay for it without prior approval from the breeder that they will pay this bill. 2.As a breeder you are expected to request a written report from their vet and a second opinion and you should be saying in your contract who you will accept a second opinion from and who will want the repairer to be. 3.If after the second opinion you decide in conjunction with your vet advice that this is in fact something you should take responsibility for then you have a right to offer a refund or replacement or pay for the repairs - but its your choice based on what you can afford. 4. The dog was sold in good condition with no health issues at the time of sale. You are certainly not expected to cover vet bills over the purchase price - especially those for which you haven't given prior approval. 5. Much - very much depends on what you sales contract says. Its astounds me that there is a view in the welfare and dog world that breeders should not breed dogs to make money yet there is an expectation that if something goes wrong which the breeder has no control over that they should miraculously have some magical bankroll somewhere which will pay for the demands of puppy buyers for months or years into the future. Pet shops have a max 14 day guarantee and a whole list of things the puppy buyer has to do in order to receive a refund and breeders have been conned into giving guarantees that go way further than the fact that pup is well and suitable for the purpose for which it was intended at time of sale - yes a breeder can guarantee that a pup wont get something like PRA which they can test for because there is a test and its recessive and therefore know the pup wont be affected but things like patellas and hips - most things should never be guaranteed and the puppy buyer regardless of where they buy the pup from should know this before they buy them. Yes we can eliminate and reduce the risk factors but we cannot and should not be guaranteeing that we will or can do things which are impossible to do. Before the pup leaves your property the buyer has to know and have it written so they can look it up for future reference what they can and cannot expect so that in a years time they don't expect it and the breeder and the buyer have to do this dance. Before you breed a puppy you have to be clear and be able to explain to a puppy buyer what you will guarantee , what that means and what the conditions are. You are not legally obligated [unless you have some poor wording in your contract you have with your puppy buyer to refund without return of the animal - remember this is about them saying that the product [ pup] was not suitable for the purpose for which it was purchased and if they keep it then it is still being used for that purpose - a pet. Morally ethically,protecting your reputation etc - thats different . Ask yourself - if they had used your vet would you have paid the money - all of the money to have it repaired if it was over the purchase price, would you have refunded the money to put toward the operation without asking for return of the dog and are you sure and your vet sure that it was something you did which you could have prevented.

Racing greyhounds get osteosarcoma (bone cancer) and pannus (eye disease which will blind them if not treated) amongst other things including thyroid problems. How closely they are related isn't as important as having knowledge of the pedigree and the lines of the dogs you are breeding. I have had beagles for 40 years bred hundreds of them - never seen or heard of one with cancer and if I bring in dogs I have no knowledge of their family health history I run a greater risk of spotting cancer or numerous other things in a couple of generations than I do by breeding a dog I know hasn't had any ancestors with a problem. The advantage a knowledgeable breeder has when they breed purebred dogs is being able to identify and eliminate as many risks as they can - using science and historical knowledge not just using dogs because they are less related and hoping it doesn't happen relying on luck. Mixed breed and cross breed dogs are not immune to developing cancer.