Steve

Yep and its taken us to about the same point it always does.Nowhere productive for the future of the health and working ability of the breed. The Italian dogs are in your opinion superior because you prefer the way they look. I get it - just don't agree.

Can just see a government telling Black Caviar's owner which horse they can mate her to and how old she can be, how many foals she is allowed and what they have to do with her when she is older.

Well Im very sorry but I cant for the life of me get anywhere near understanding how you could possibly see the shape of a lip in the same category as lack of pigment . Its not O.K. to sacrifice something which may have profound impact on the quality of life not just of your dog but others in the breed in order to get a cosmetic adjustment which is so easily fixed in comparison and which doesn't affect health. Over the past few years Ive had a bit of challenge in eye shape but Im now seeing pups which have exactly what Im looking for but under no condition would I sacrifice any part of the health or how it worked in order to achieve that.I also had a couple turn up early days with those rotten coats but haven't seen it now for about 15 years.

OK Now you have seen one working, its no biggy. He is not breeding, he is not suffering but he has not been dumped in the middle of some paddock with minimal shade 24/7. Your conclusion about predicting which dogs have the fault is too simple. Agreed it should not be over represented within the breed but the dogs will have the last say. I am not interested in being an advocate for some breeders. My advocacy is for the dogs, all of them. You are not listening - you dont know what comes next and its not about shade and only skin cancer and being more attractive to biting insects. You assume that this lack of pigment will only affect those parts of its skin which are exposed but if it is caused even in part by a tyrosinase issue - snow nose has been - as the dog ages there is an increased risk of loads of things. The dog I met on Monday has lived a life of luxury in a family and had lush green shade all of its life. How are you going to stop it being over represented in a breed when many that are being bred either have it or carry it now and there are only about 140 a year throughout the entire country being bred and out of them only about 10 % go into the registered gene pool? If your passion is truly for the health, future and welfare of the breed how can you not see what potential impact there is a on a breed when breeders are prepared to compromise to get a look which they like to stand on a podium. You may be able to control where your puppies go and what type of environment they live in if the environment has any impact on this anyway but you cant control what comes next for the breed if it leaks in and breeders dont take action to stop it.

You would be very unlucky. More chance of him having hypothyroidism, which is not limited to dogs. Ay Steve. Why would this dog or any dog [ Maremma] have more chance of hypothyroidism than any other symptom of a lack of Tryosinase. Ive never met a Maremma with hypothyroidism but just this week I met another Maremma which had just had a tumor removed which co incidentally had a lack of the correct pigment. The tumor was not on its nose. And yes as already stated humans also have the same issues caused by the same things. MUP More research is always good and essential if you are ever considering breeding them.

The cause is thought to be a breakdown of an enzyme called tyrosinase, which is responsible for producing pigment. I won't get too technical but look it up when you get a minute – its pretty interesting especially when you note how the amino acid Tyrosine operates and the potential other things which it may affect that you wouldn't notice straight away or connect to an inability to breakdown and convert some amino acids which are produced by the body. Its tied up with melanin and phenylalanine too. Apparently, the enzyme becomes less efficient as the dog ages too, causing the nose to fade from black to brown or pink. Tyrosinase is also temperature sensitive; it works more effectively in warmer weather, which explains the fading of the nose during winter months and why it is more common in dogs which live outside with no heating in winter. In these cases when the temperature rises so does the nose pigment return to black. Its also affected by stress too. Tyrosine is found naturally in lots of foods so you might want to add a bit more of these things to his diet or even just go after a supplement especially in the winter – can't do any harm. The lack of pigment in Maremma may be the result of a genetic fault in the dog being able to manufacture this enzyme or it may be nutritional or nutritional related to the grandmother. Its probably not just about colour genetics - We need more research.especially as this enzyme is associated with cancer. Years ago every human baby born was tested for this enzyme and it identified those as suffering PKU and unable to synthesise phenylanaline. Nothing is ever as simple as it seems and testing for this enzyme may solve part of the puzzle in lieu of a DNA marker but either way we shouldn't be breeding with dogs which have lack of pigment in its face and feet or produce puppies with this before we know what the consequences are for the breed into the future as an inability or reduced ability to manufacture this enzyme isn't just responsible for fading noses its also a bunch of other things which may have a profound affect on the viability and quality of life of the breed. Its is a biggy Tralee.

I am breeding Maremma which are born to primarily work IN AUSTRALIA and even if pets they live in Australia .Ive exported a couple for work in countries with similar sunshine intensity and worse biting insects but prefer not to in future. Im not interested in whether or not lighter pigment is a problem in any other country .Ive no interest in considering or debating what other breeds of dogs have liver pigment etc. I dont want to breed dogs with this fault and because its been ignored as non important it is now in registered lines and more and more will be seen and more and more will carry it. Until you have seen a Maremma with light pigment working dont tell me its no biggy because they suffer terribly for it.And its not just about cancer - its sunburn and flies and mozzie bites. For me its a biggy and its a big big deal that where it is in a pedigree isnt obvious so it becomes impossible to avoid eventually getting it in a whelping box and all of us end up having to deal with this contamination with pups born which are not as capable of living a life without what goes with light pigment because its not a biggy for them. Have no choice but in Choosing breeding dogs where we dont know if they carry it ! Then you question why someone breeding dogs they use for work doesn't want to go near show lines or someone who needs them to work doesn't consider registered lines?

Its not only the temperament that needs to be part of any selection process. It is also what appears to some to be minor details in interpretations of the standard which are required to be focused on in order to maintain their ability to live in a paddock and be able to run and move effectively. You cannot simply say that dog is a good dog and has all that's required to ensure the breed isnt altered into the future because its the look that you prefer. Dogs which have lack of pigment for example cannot work all day in a paddock whether you bring them into the house yard in the evenings or not.Lack of pigment means sunburn and fly bites and it has a profound affect on the dog's ability to do what its required to do without compromising its welfare. No amount of correct temperament will counteract that. Dogs that are chunkier and heavier do look prettier in the ring but they are good for little more than mooching in a back yard but in a real life working situations, selecting for this wont help a dog do what it needs to do to run boundaries and chase of predators. It also means HD which the breed has never had to be worried about too much is now showing up. Right now this breed is on the brink or having a division between working and show dogs and history with other working breeds should tell us if we don't look after both we will have working dog breeders and show breeders and their dogs will hardly resemble each other's working ability or how they look. Some Show breeders can and will go into denial over this just as some show breeders in other working breeds do when they seriously ask those working dog owners to believe their show dogs are as capable of doing the work they need them to do.Because they dont work them they dont know the difference and assume that their dogs can do the same quality of job because they do still have similar all be it watered down base characteristics. Basic science says if you dont select for it and test it you loose it .If they dont test them with work they can assume what they see is working ability and select for that with a greater emphasis on how they look over how they work - because they dont really have a clue how they work all day everyday with a species they bond with - they are guessing and over a few generations that will be - has to be - extinguished somewhat. Maremmas should be able to be handled by strangers on leash off property if that is what they have been conditioned to and what they see as normal - .There are some bloody excellent breeders in this country that are working them all week with goats and cattle and sheep and taking them into the ring on the weekends - dogs which are taking off champions ships and are also some of the best working dogs anyone could ever hope for.

It won't turn away the large scale breeders because they won't care and it won't turn away BYB because they won't be policed. This is a policy designed to rid Victoria of pedigree dogs. I would agree with that. The only breeders who can get pinged with close matings are those that keep pedigrees - how on earth could anyone know whether a puppy farmer is doing that? What's more it effectively takes away a tool a purebred breeder can use if they need to. It shows a complete lack of understanding of what purebred breeders do and the joke of it is I can mate a Ram over 500 of his daughters in a couple of days.I can just see them making legislation to tell horse, cattle or sheep breeders what matings they can use. They clearly havent considered what happens with our dogs once they pass breeding age and its assumed they are stock - just desex them and move them out - too bad if I want to keep them entire and simply live with them and love them until old age. Why cant you mate a male dog after its 7 ? How are they going to work the whole frozen semen thing ? Tonight we had steak and as always I walked to the back door to throw the dogs the off cuts. Throw em around and everyone gets a bit - no worries no issues and I thought geez if this gets in what I just did becomes illegal. What a joke .

If it wasnt so serious it would be laughable. Poor dogs.

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/pets/about-pets/breeding-and-rearing-code-review-public-comment/draft-proposed-revised-code/management-of-dogs

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country? In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds. I made this point earlier. We have not kept pace with the Italians and their breeding programs. But we also face the disadvantage of not being in Europe and having exposure to so many Internationals. The question about the stock brought to Australia over the past decades and the quality of our breeding also arises. Colloquially, it is known that the entrepeneurs got hold of them and bred anything with anything, and it still goes on today. Well if their dogs have to be tested for temperament because so many are lacking and that test has zippo nothing to do with how it could work Im not that convinced the Italians are doing all you seem to think they are doing. What's more those "entrepreneurs' built a gene pool which was extremely viable and had no known genetic issues. Ive got dogs here that have every single dog in their pedigree for 4 generations which are champions so suggesting to me that people were breeding anything to anything and that they still are? Rubbish. C'mon Steve. The temperament testing some Italians have undertaken is for good canine citizenship, it is neither universal or over-prescribed. I could have had a $125 Maremma advertised in a Queensland newspaper, at the time I got my first dog. There must be hundreds of dogs that have been bred on farm without due care to the standard or pedigree. We have Maremma being bred here that are indisciminately joined and not pedigreed. Rescues have dogs that obviously display careless breeding. Why you think every dog is a cousin to those you have, is beyond me. So, not rubbish at all Tralee every breed has dogs being bred by ratbags especially working breeds. Im talking about CC registered dogs and for you to say that what is here is rubbish across the board is still in my opinion rubbish.

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country? In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds. I made this point earlier. We have not kept pace with the Italians and their breeding programs. But we also face the disadvantage of not being in Europe and having exposure to so many Internationals. The question about the stock brought to Australia over the past decades and the quality of our breeding also arises. Colloquially, it is known that the entrepeneurs got hold of them and bred anything with anything, and it still goes on today. Well if their dogs have to be tested for temperament because so many are lacking and that test has zippo nothing to do with how it could work Im not that convinced the Italians are doing all you seem to think they are doing. What's more those "entrepreneurs' built a gene pool which was extremely viable and had no known genetic issues .Ive got dogs here that have every single dog in their pedigree for 4 generations which are champions so suggesting to me that people were breeding anything to anything and that they still are? Rubbish.

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country? In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds. We have world class Maremma in this country and it would appear much depends on who is doing the judging and interpreting the standard. It doesnt bother me what is used as a benchmark for a champion show dog or that there will be at least slightly different types selected to breed with or stand on the podium but there is a hell of a lot more to selecting a dog to breed with than that.

Breeders are under a lot of pressure to ensure that they are sending their puppies to homes that are going to be able to keep them all of their lives and afford to pay for them. Because of the questions you asked it simply raised a red flag that the breeder needs to check and and be sure that you are going to be able to afford to pay for expenses .In fact if she didnt follow up and do a bit more work to be sure you are not going to be someone who wants to cut costs the the detriment of the dogs health she would be negligent and possibly setting herself up for a major pain later on for the dog. Her first obligation is to the pup. She didnt say she wont sell you the pup she simply followed up to be sure. Im certainly not saying you have done anything wrong or asked questions you shouldnt but they do give a potential insight into how you think and in my opinion you left her no option but to try to get a better feel for your general attitude to how you will care for and pay for necessities for the pup when you take it home. Just ring her and tell her you like to shop around but that you wont try to economise in regard to the care or welfare of the pup and that you are sorry you worried her - if thats how you feel.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/ex-police-trainee-denies-horse-cruelty/story-fn3dxiwe-1226618577690 Ex-police trainee denies horse cruelty ONE-TIME police trainee and prostitute Kim Hollingsworth, who is facing animal cruelty charges, has rubbished claims that she mistreated horses. Hollingsworth has pleaded not guilty to 11 charges relating to RSPCA allegations that dozens of her horses at paddocks west and south of Sydney were underweight and in poor condition. The RSPCA seized 11 horses in 2012 after inspecting the paddocks in Cobbitty, Wilton and Mulgoa. Taking the witness stand on Thursday at Sydney's Downing Centre Local Court, Hollingsworth stressed that she had always treated her horses responsibly. "I never avoided feeding them and I never avoided caring for them," she told the court. "I always tried to help the horse." Hollingsworth said she had begun to question herself since the RSPCA made the allegations. "I used to be happy and cheery ... now after all this I keep asking myself 'am I an animal abuser?'," Hollingsworth told the court. "There's just crazy stuff out there." Hollingsworth said the case had led to "hate groups" being set up to target her on social media. "I should not have had to change my whole life because of Facebook," she said. "I don't even go on those hate group pages anymore." Outside the court a small group of protesters gathered holding up signs calling for "justice for the horses". The hearing before Magistrate Peter Miszalski continues.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/ex-police-trainee-denies-horse-cruelty/story-fn3dxiwe-1226618577690 timely reminder of how far it can go.

By the way if it was duress and if it was all handled the wrong way - who are they going to complain to and what is going to be done about it?

O.K. Agreed but its also common practice and I would suggest that very few people who surrender their dogs in similar circumstances do so without some kind of duress or percieved threat. Will be intersting to watch this all play out -either way it wont bring the dogs back. Still if there was no vet there and there needed to be one if they seized the dogs the dogs werent seized.If the dogs were inspected and they needed a vet to inspect - unlikely - then thats relavent.

When I moved to Lismore from Broken Hill to work at Nimbin Cemtral School I had to take my two dogs to school with me and put them in the Ag. plot because I had not found a house and they could not be left alone in crates in the Caravan Park during the day while I was away. On the first day, the Ag. assistant rang up to the school that Winja had killed the rooster. No blame was placed on the dog because the Ag Assistant had not corralled the aggressive rooster. The rooster had caused numerable injuries to students and they were glad to be rid of it. I can only imagine the rooster having a go at the dog. On the second day, when I went to collect the dogs my big girl was missing. Of course I thought the worst and scoured the perimeter for a carcass left from snake bit. No carcass. I then thought one of the kids had taken her because she would go with anybody. Just as I was leaving I looked over to the chook pen and Sooki was sitting under a tree. Because of the previous days events, I frantically looked for dead chickens. None could be found. Sooki had camped under the tree in the chool pen. She was doing what she only knew innately because at three years of age she had never been with a chicken. Not only that, she was determined not to come home with me, she had a responsibility and was committed to it. My dog numbers increased from one to four progessively, Each new dog competed with the previous dog/s to protect them. On property they protected the pack, and their vigilance increased when there were litters on the ground. Dogs are livestock too, and the Maremma is a livestock guardian. It is an astounding thing to observe how they have a division of labour when threats arise. One dog takes the fence, another stays close to me and I get pushed back away from the danger, inbetween the dogs are ready to reinforce their defence or increase the security around me as the case may be. I have homed several dogs and there are testimonials to their suitability and success on my dog's website. But that does not mean just anybody would be advised by me to get a Maremma or that I would home a puppy with just anybody. My summation is: you need brains if you are going to keep a dog and good brains if you have a Maremma. Regards I dont think any one would disagree with you.I wouldnt place a Maremma pup with just anyone and I work like mad in the hope that anyone who does get one knows the breed enough to be able to do it justice - but then I wouldnt place a beagle pup with just anyone either.

Its not just strangers and visitors its predators too. Around here crows are a curse and my Maremma share their food with magpies but wont tolerate crows to a point where the crows wont even fly over any paddock the dogs are in. On free range poulty farms they take out the eagles but show nothing but care for the chickens. Years ago I had one which was bonded to my cats.I would watch her work like mad to get the kittens to love her with all of her body language seeming to be exagerated .The kittens would choose to sleep with her rather than their Mum by 6 weeks of age and they used her like a mountain. She tipped toed around them and was a never ending source of amazement. One ,morning I got up and let her out to go to the toot and bugger me she saw a wild cat in the front lawn and in a heart beat she had picked it up shaken it , broken it's back and tossed it over the fence. How did she know the difference? How does one dog know the difference between a magpie and a crow?

Someone will need to look up prevention of cruelty to animals act and any companion animals state laws in SA as the minor details are different in each state. My personal opinion is that if its true they need a vet to seize there is a hell of a lot of them that arent doing that and in all honesty Id be surprised if that was the case .But she surrendered them whether she says now it was under duress isnt the point. No point in arguingthere was no vet when they seized them if they didnt seize them.

There are lots of rescue groups in SA that have professionalism and accountability - they are MDBA members. You've just been watching the wrong ones. That's probably a matter of opinion to some people. That suggests a choice. Thats right from what has been reported they did have a choice - whether or not they felt they did or whether they were bullied etc is speculation and not really relevant as to whether they needed a vet with them. Our rescue members are more accountable - no opinion required its a fact and I have neither seen nor heard any evidence what ever as to why anyone would feel they were unprofessional.

Far as I know they don't need a vet to inspect the animals - they may need a vet to seize though I believe Moorook handed them over rather than them seizing them.