LizT

Be careful if they are European wasps, they can become pretty aggressive when their nest is disturbed! I once walked too close to a nest (I didn't know it was there) and they chased me to the end of the street...

The Euros usually don't get active around here (Yarra Valley) until late summer, when the fruit is ripe on the trees.

They are a pain...literally! And very agressive.

espinay, whilst I would agree that wolves and dogs have a number of similarities they are definitely separate species - since about 100,000 years ago.

Current dogs are thought to have been domesticated about 19,000 years ago (after an earlier failed attempt about 30,000 ya)

As a zoologist I consider them the same species, and the taxonomy in most common usage does too

We must be reading different literature :laugh: The DNA studies I've read indicate delineation 100,000 years ago but put domestication at 10,000 years. Can you PM me some authors please as I would like to read further. Thanks!

Aw man, you mean I can't just talk crap on the internet without sources? Dammit :p :laugh:On my lunchbreak so don't have my referencing skills up to snuff, but - http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2011/08/110819-dogs-wolves-russia-domestication-animals-science-evolution/

Under the Biological Species Concept dogs and wolves fail at the first hurdle, by gettin' busy and having fertile pups :)

Edit - this looks interesting (but inconclusive) too - http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/05/15/1203005109

Of course you can...it's what the internet is for! :D

I don't believe a cat will do well on a vegan diet. Cats need meat to thrive.

If a cat is self sufficent it will always choose to hunt for fresh meat, it will not scrounge for garbage like a dog will. A dog will "survive" on just about any crap.

I agree with cats needing meat to thrive but they will scavenge if they have to. I did a project where I analysed the gut contents of cats living at one of the dumps in a town between Brisbane and Toowoomba. Kitties were dispatched for me and I opened their guts to find glass, alfoil, plastic, rocks, alongside native marsupials, reptiles, frogs and birds and some feral mice. I was surprised at the garbage they did eat.

WOW! Cats are more like people than I thought.

As a species I think people definitely eat the most diversity (and garbage) than any other, althought hopefully not glass, alfoil, plastic, rocks etc. However, there are some disorders where people do eat weird types of stuff such as glass, charcoal, wood -Pica.

I stand corrected re my chickens - quite right they aren't vegetarian because I do allow them to free range daily so they would be finding their own bugs, should have thought before typing. However I don't feed any pelleted feed to them due to unwanted ingredients. Past chickens have lived lifespans well over 10 years, still laying the occasional egg, so I don't believe they were deprived.

Sorry if this topic is not considered suitable for a first post - I certainly have tried to be polite and respectful, and absolutely disagree with evangelical style vego/vegan preaching. As stated in my post it is a topic I feel strongly. Surely it is normal to want to be able to respond in that case? I have actually been here before briefly, under Elysia, until my registration mysteriously stopped allowing me to reply or start a new topic. Since then I have been lurking, and hadn't got around to reregistering.

I also agree with the observation that several people have made regards raising and killing their own meat - a much more respectful and humane alternative.

It doesn't matter what you write as your first post. You obviously felt compelled to respond because you're passionate about your beliefs. I'm not sure what Liz T meant by that comment It made me feel a bit paranoid actually - I feel like going back and having a look at my first post now :laugh:

Actually I think I followed and read a fair bit of threads before I posted my first comment too! Can't remember what it was but I certainly skipped the "meet n greet". My comment wasn't meant to be provocative, just noticed the number 1 at 'posts' and new name 'tis all. But as a heads up, "off the cuff" comments (like mine) can often get miss interpretted here on DOL. Have you been fitted for you "Flame suit" yet? May you never need it. :)

I believe killing is only ok for survival. Humans in the western world no longer need to eat meat so i dont beliee in killing anything for food. Certainly not for clothes or make up etc

I have already decided my kids will be vegan because there is no good reason for them to not be.

IMHO no one has provided no one has provided a good reason on here for dogs to eat meat.

I dont count because thats what nature intended a reason.

I think its sad your kids don't get to chose themselves

Why? Most kids eat what their parents want them to eat. Free choice comes when you leave home.

Because becoming a Vegan is a personal choice and not one your parents should make for you. I believe children should be free to sample all foods and decide what is palatable to them. I'm not sure how well it would be policed in a school ground anyway with children swapping lunches, getting tuckshop, having sleepovers.

Isn't choosing to feed meat forcing your choice on children? Part of being a parent is making decisions on behalf of our children and they will reflect our own beliefs in all areas. I have never énforced by choice outside of the home, I have found that beyond some curiousity and experimentation the children have reached their own conclusion. Perhaps it is easier as we live in area where vego/vegan is not uncommon?

I think giving your children all foods of the world and letting them decide, along with the education behind it, is the best way of letting them chose what path they take.

I'd be devastated if my first taste of a steak wasn't until I was an adult. Obviously children follow their parents in many ways so if you live a strict vegan life, then no doubt they will chose to follow that path too but I believe they should be able to make that choice themselves.

Not as simple as it sounds...nor easily doable. it's like Religion, a child will naturally have the Religious upbringing it's parents choose it to have from the onset.

If it chooses to change religions as an adult that is up to them, it's rare though, as these things become ingrained.

One raises one kids with what one believes to be their best interests, whether the majority believe it to be so or not.

Who says dogs can't choose? If you put a bowl of vegan food down and bowl of normal dog food down and your dog eats the normal dog food and refuses to eat the vegan food I would say that's a choice.

You've obviously never lived with pugs - they'll finish both bowls then come asking for more

And Cavaliers. :laugh:

I stand corrected re my chickens - quite right they aren't vegetarian because I do allow them to free range daily so they would be finding their own bugs, should have thought before typing. However I don't feed any pelleted feed to them due to unwanted ingredients. Past chickens have lived lifespans well over 10 years, still laying the occasional egg, so I don't believe they were deprived.

Sorry if this topic is not considered suitable for a first post - I certainly have tried to be polite and respectful, and absolutely disagree with evangelical style vego/vegan preaching. As stated in my post it is a topic I feel strongly. Surely it is normal to want to be able to respond in that case? I have actually been here before briefly, under Elysia, until my registration mysteriously stopped allowing me to reply or start a new topic. Since then I have been lurking, and hadn't got around to reregistering.

I also agree with the observation that several people have made regards raising and killing their own meat - a much more respectful and humane alternative.

you can post where you like :)

Of course you can, I just find it interesting to think there are those watching and what subjects bring them out. :)

Welcome to DOL.

A friend of my parents has a small cattle property. He has a fully licensed, small slaughterhouse (the health hoops you have to jump through are considerable). He drives the cattle up there, and kills and dresses them himself. His neighbours also use him.

The cattle are never transported (a major issue for me). I don't have an issue with this style of livestock raising and my parents swear his meat TASTE'S better.

My personal view is that if more people were aware of how livestock animals were raised and treated for mass food production, they'd be more discerning about where their meat came from. Then again, the cost is all important for some.

I DETEST intensive animal farming in a major way. It is WRONG.

End of Sermon.

It's true. HDW. I've experienced this first hand with a travelling butcher and his mobile refridgeration unit.

The cattle are not stressed prior to death and so there is no lactic acid present in the muscle.

Unfortunately intensive animal farming comes hand in hand with intensive populations in small areas.

If we're not supposed to eat meat then why does it taste so damn good? :laugh:

Just look at our teeth and you'll know what we are supposed to eat! Anything we can get our hands on!

Despite being a vegetarian of 20+ years and trying to change to vegan at this time, I am, sadly, neither pale nor skinny. Nor as a wannabe vegan do I want to prevent anyone having well loved and cared for pets. I am opposed to factory farming, live export, the fur trade and similar industries where animal suffering is downplayed in favour of economic gain. I do not understand why our pets are granted so many privileges and protections that other animals are not. I do believe that in some (not all) cases animal rights activists are playing a vital role in improving the awareness of the general public to the amount of suffering which is inflicted to keep humans gratified. I find it disappointing when I see vegans/vegetarians/activists being stereotyped in such negative ways. We are not all one homogenous group! I also deeply resent the suggestion that I "force" my vegetarian diet on my children - both of my girls have chosen to embrace this diet as they see it as the only choice compatible with their love of animals. I have always made it clear that although I do not choose to cook meat dishes they are very welcome to experiment, without judgement, out of the home. I do not see how this is different to forcing a personal belief that meat should be eaten regularly on our children. Sorry for the off topic rant, obviously this is an area which frutrates me!

Back to pets - currently I have vegetarian chooks, guinea pigs and parrot. My dog and cat are not vegetarian. I have had vegetarian (not vegan)dogs in the past. My great dane and mastiff cross did very well healthwise and appeared to eat their food with enthusiasm. I had the assistance of a vet to ensure that their health was not compromised. After some time I reintroduced bones because I was unable to find a vegetarian substitute which could withstand their jaws for more than a few minutes and was concerned that I wasn't meeting their dental and psychological needs to chew. I did not choose this diet for my own ego, or to be hip. I chose it because I wish to reduce the amount of money I contribute to an industry dependent on suffering. My current dog, a border collie, is not vegetarian - he has fish such as sardines, eggs from my own happy pet chooks, and some bones as well as a wide range of vegetarian products. I may choose to change him to an almost totally vegetarian diet at a later date, I am undecided. But you can be sure that his health and contentment are my priorities.

Interesting what topics people will choose as their first post in a forum.

I don't believe a cat will do well on a vegan diet. Cats need meat to thrive.

If a cat is self sufficent it will always choose to hunt for fresh meat, it will not scrounge for garbage like a dog will. A dog will "survive" on just about any crap.

I too, feel it's wrong for carnivoires to be imposed a un-natural diet.

Bankstown Pound is Renbury, isn't it? Maybe someone there will have a better idea of breed ID.

It doesn't matter what breed they are, it was a horrible attack by two badly trained dogs, with an irresponsible owner.

Yep. Two sweet innocent litle puppies...once...now grown up and so poorly managed that they have been labelled by society as "vile Monsters" and will be "made to pay" for their anti-social behaviour.

Hopefully, so will their owner. But really, if their owner had a better understanding of what can happen when dogs are allowed to grow up without the training and supervision needed to make them acceptable members of the community or at least to restrict their free roaming so as to make sure they don't harrass dog or person, then there would never have been a problem ( or with any dog for that matter).

It doesn't matter what breed of dog they are, they have been allowed to become what they have, have inflicted a terrible injury on a person due to a lack of responsibility and now will pay the ultimate price.

Does anyone learn anything from these incidents...I truly hope so.

Another classic case of someone under estimating the ability of their dogs to make it ever so clear they do not like another dog...and it's owner.

As Tralee stated, I don't think dogs can ever be under managed, yet time and time again they are left in situations where they have the capacity to become agressive and opportunity to show that agression in spades.

Much to the detriment of innocents. And the repurcussions are endless...for all.

Oh she's just lovely. Pups look to be doing well. Glad she is a happy mumma now. :)

Try to be patient. One needs exposure in order to learn. It can't be lectured.

When I was 21 I adopted a Maltese X entire bitch, I later purchased a Lhaso Apso X Maltese from a Sunday Market for a weeks wage. I had grand plans. I was going to breed some very cute lovely puppies, have fun doing it and make some money to boot.

All my friends wanted a pup and kept asking if anything was forthcoming.

I knew nothing about breeding dogs at 21.

Fortunately the "fates" took hold of the situation, and despite both dogs remaining entires they never mated.

I thought I was unlucky. I really can't believe how lucky I have been.

If your co-worker lives in an apartment in the Docklands it's unlikely she will be beyond the day dreaming stage. Maybe get her to come to a dog show and look at some breeds.

Well Rosies 5 pups are doing well. :thumbsup:

Off for eye tests next Tuesday.

Thanks everyone for suggestions, will look into DAP today and buy some rescue remedy to have on hand for any future problems.

2 good sleeps for new mum & me, last night was even better so it appears the crisis is over LOL

Hmmm I was going to suggest the DAP diffuser as well - it has been a great help to me. Can you order on line and get it delivered? Lavender ALWAYS helps me sleep so that might work well.... fingers crossed for you to get a good nights sleep.....

That's good to hear Mojopoodle...now all that's left is for you to post some pictures of the little family! :D

Congratulations on your soon to be new puppy "Sammy". :)

May he grow strong and healthy and have a long and happy life with you all.

Well we ended up with 2 boys 2 girls. Zarah an excellent Mum.

For pics please visit Clarelly Kennels on Facebook.

I will put them in here once I get them of the phone and into photobucket.

Glad my teaching skills have lasted. :)

Keep up the tube feeding for about 3 days I reckon. Just to get some substance on her.

I cannot believe that my pups have put on 30 grms since birth, by 10am.

Already passing breastmilk stools.

Congratulations BB and Zarah....definitely not Cavalier babies! :D

Few hours old..one pup was born in a sac full of meconium, anyone else had that? Pup is ok for now, but will be one to watch..

6 girls, 1 boy ...but the boy is a replica of my import that was killed by snake, this was a line breeding back to him, I am in love...

Congrats. :)

I would recommend some inner health plus, just open a capsule, mix with cooled boiled water and pop on mums nipple or a drop direct on pups tongue, just in case.

I am not sure which change worked but we had a normal 'new mum' night with 4 hour stretches of sound sleep Wonderful!

When she woke up she was not distressed, just wanted out for a wee and went straight back to sleep again.

Thank goodness!

:)

Have some fun and show her yourself. Go along to a few shows and watch others, observe their dress, you will need a number holder. Possibly a crate for you puppy and a nice fine show lead. AFTER the Cavaliers have been shown talk to a few exhibitors. Enter some shows, have a go. You will both learn and benefit from the experience. You may even be lucky like I was and make great friends and find some people who are keen to share their knowledge and experience. :)

Hehe I used the water bottle too, when my dogs were little. It worked really well! Nobody wants to be squirted!

My pup loves the water squirter, she worked out that being naughty meant she got squirted, so she would intentionally be naughty and then stand there with her mouth open to catch all the water I squirted at her face

Some "mum's" do have 'em! ;)

Lavender Oil I do have, nice for me tonight as well!

Thank you LizT I will give it a try.

Do you have any Lavender oil? If so put a few drops with water in a bottle atomiser and lightly mist in the room.

Or if you have an oil burner put some in that. Sweet dreams. :)

We have had our 4 dogs on black hawk and I am not impressed, my old poodle has dandruff for the first time in her life and all the dogs coats are drier than normal. Two of the four now refuse to eat it.

I also tried a sample of the cat food and not one of our four cats would touch it.

Complete waste if money we will be going back to the Purina small breed from the supermarket.

That's really interesting. My dog has been on BH for about three months and for the last two of those has had dandruff intermittently for the first time ever. I've just taken him off of it so I'm very keen to see if the dandruff disappears.

My Cavs coats became very dry and dull and yes, dandruff as in dry flakey skin was part of that. It took a few months on a previously used food to get them back to glossy and shiny with healthy skin.