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pipsqueak

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    Luring Vs 'guide, Show, Place'

    in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports

    Posted

    Pick me up off the floor and dust me off. I don't know why I'm so gob-smacked. :thumbsup:

    Welcome to my world! My girl is one who struggled to learn targetting. She is confident and reliable now, but boy did it take a while. I actually had to start with me making the target move to contact her nose and rewarding her for that - otherwise we would just sit there forever.

    I think that there is a large difference in dogs that have been trained positively, with free-shaping and targeting from the time they were pups and older dogs who haven't had any training at all. Yes, some of the older dogs will still pick up things quickly and think for themselves, but many won't. My "girl" has this attitude of "why bother", I'm quite happy sitting here. I think is is extremely low drive/low motiviation... or it could just be that I'm a lousy trainer!

    Luring Vs 'guide, Show, Place'

    in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports

    Posted

    Thanks Erny - I couldn't agree more. I call her my "L-plate" dog. Having said that, I am certain that she has taught me much more about training than I have taught her. Many, many times that is usually how "not" to teach something! I will think through and plan how to teach something, and then she will show me exactly where the flaws in my training plan are :thumbsup: All good though.

    Luring Vs 'guide, Show, Place'

    in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports

    Posted

    Do people still use GSP?? I thought that went out with check chains in teaching. It kinda strikes me as a hammer and anvil approach... :thumbsup: I think even luring is a bit problematic, although I still use it. I'm transferring all my luring to targeting, now. I almost exclusively shape with Erik and don't use food or my hands to tell him where to be. He watches my face and gains clues and works it out on his own. I love this approach because if he learns it on his own he loves the new behaviour and retains it better than if I lure it. Plus I get a kick out of watching the wheels in his head turning as he thinks through the problem. Yesterday I started teaching him to weave between my legs and he got halfway there in under a minute with nothing more than my legs spread apart and an initial flick of my eyes towards the direction he should move.

    My other dog is really tactile and I sometimes give him tactile clues, like touching the body part I want him to move. I'm putting cues to all of it so he can understand what he's doing. He's a bit of a weird one. He isn't aware of a lot of things that go on around his body and gets so focused during training that it's hard to get him to notice things other than me. He gets frustrated if he is getting rewards he doesn't understand. I've had him throw himself on the ground in defeat despite a high reward rate because he doesn't know what he's doing to get the rewards. Touch seems to help him, but ultimately I want thim to be aware of what he's doing and know how to get the reward. I like the learning process to be nice and operant. I think the dogs enjoy it more, I enjoy it more, and it's a better mental workout for them, and they are more flexible if they have to think for themselves. And retention is better.

    Yes, some of us are almost "forced" to use GSP by our dogs, otherwise there is no other way to make them understand and they get extremely frustrated. With my first dog, I was determined to use lures & positive only. Well, she had zero interest in food, and no concept of following food as a lure. You could place high value treats (BBQ chicken, raw liver) to her nose to try to lure her into a sit. She would happily watch as the treat moved away from her. Over time (2+ years) she has been taught/learnt to follow a lure. In those early days, GSP gave me something to reward. Don't get me wrong, I am all for luring and free-shaping but she has taught me it doesn't work for all dogs. I have occasionally played with trying to fre-shape her, and it frustrates both of us. She is not a dog that will naturally offer behaviours - and even rewarding the smallest behaviour doesn't keep my reward rate high enough. We progress much more quickly and happily with GSP and luring. She was adopted when she was 12-18 months old and had been in the shelter between 3-6 months. She initially had to "learn how to learn", as shown by learning to follow a lure. She is still not very food-orientated, but enough to work with - have also tried toys and tugs, but again, very very low interest. My other dog is a different story - happy to be lured, happy to try shaping, as long as the food and praise keep coming.

    Doggy Blood Donor Needed

    in General Dog Discussion

    Posted

    I would also try call the vet clinic based at Sydney Uni - I think they are a teaching facility, so might make it more likely, or they might have contacts for you?

    My girl is just under the required weight (26-28kg) and my boofhead boy, who is the right weight, I don't think would cope, especially if it required him to stay still.

    Healing vibes being sent your way.

    They Say You Know When It's Time .........how?

    in Health / Nutrition / Grooming

    Posted

    Not a dog, but I've had a similar experience with a guinea pig. People kept saying that I would know the right time, but I fear for her I left it too long. Her right time was probably a month or so before I was ready to let her go. Each time I made the decision, she would show small signs of improvement. She finally got to the stage that I couldn't deny that she was suffering :) . In my heart of hearts, I wish I had of made the decision earlier for her sake, and pray that she doesn't hold it against me.

    So, the right time is when you are both ready.

    Need Advice In Creating A Stress Free Bath Time.

    in Puppy Chat

    Posted

    If you bathe often it would be worth a proper counter-conditioning regime. It really doesn't take that long. If I ever thought of it I'd do it with my dogs, only mine aren't much trouble in the bath and I hardly ever wash them anyway so it has never occurred to me. CC is as simple as feeding treats in the bathing area, then progressing gradually to the bath/hose, then with the water running but not touching them, then a little water on the feet and so on and so on. Massively abridged version.

    This is really difficult when they are that stressed anywhere near the bath area that they won't accept food!!!

    100% Recall

    in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports

    Posted

    May I respectfully ask how many sighthounds have you trained to 100% reliable recall???

    Zero. Why do you ask? You might want to read my post again for some clarification.

    My thinking is that to get a conditioned response in the required circumstance is that to train the response, you have to be at least as interesting as the competing stimuli.

    100% Recall

    in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports

    Posted

    Mrs RB:
    Some of you need to learn more about "conditioned responses". Basically once you have that, the dog can't help itself, it's not something it thinks about "got something better to do right now", it just does it.

    How would such a response overcome an instinctive response hard wired into the dog, triggered by movement and selectively bred for for generations. That's what you're up against trying to call a sighthound off prey.

    I will never be more interesting than a hare to Howard, no matter how hard it is for him to catch one. I've heard all the stuff about "you have to be the most interesting thing there" - try matching a fleeing kangaroo for "interest".

    This is the problem that Mrs RB hit the nail on the head with - it's NOT about being "more interesting" than the kangaroo. It's about a conditioned response. The dog doesn't weigh up the options, either he is conditioned to respond under those stimulus conditions or he isn't.

    How you go about achieving that in a practical manner without devoting your life to it is another matter entirely!

    If you want a naturalistic observation, when wild canids hunt in packs they are still very attuned to what their pack mates are doing; i.e 100% of their field of perception is not devoted to the prey and it's pursuit.

    May I respectfully ask how many sighthounds have you trained to 100% reliable recall???

    100% Recall

    in Training / Obedience / Dog Sports

    Posted

    Having fostered a greyhound and now owning a sighthound mix, I would say that for some dogs, 100% recall is not possible. I understand that there are some greyhounds and sighthounds that have excellent recall under all conditions/distraction, however for my dog it isn't a possibility. Sighthound people talk about "prey drive" - if you haven't seen it, it might be difficult for you to understand. It is like someone flicks a switch, and nothing else in the world exists for the dog apart from the prey... which is usually moving rapidly into the distance. My other dog, a lab mix, has fairly reliable recall, without much work. Nothing near 100% as I haven't yet put the work into him which needs to be done.

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