raineth

hmm its an interesting thought isn't it?

I would generally think that breeds that tend to be very dominant or very stubborn would be the main criteria for being better suited to experienced hands.

But then I think there is still quite a bit of variation of temperament within a breed. And good breeders can choose a pup with temp that a better fit for a first time owner

But aversive also means a stimulus that is negative and elicits avoidance. I can tell you our fire alarm is unbelievably loud and painful, the other dog hid under the desk and the kids ran outisde. So I would call that aversive. Yet her curiosity was more powerful than her desire to avoid the horrid sound. But I suppose you would say that because she didn't avoid it it is therefore not aversive to her... meh. We still both get the idea

Meh? I think people on here have a preconceived notion of an aversive. If we find it unpleasant or have an idea that it is negative then the dog must find it an aversive. Not true at all. Let's look at humans, some people are terrified out of their skins with needles while others sit for hours getting tattoos. Traditionally we think, oh wow that must be so painfull etc how could anyone do that ... yet those with tattoos realise the pain in actually quite minimal if not sometimes totally unnoticable - therefor it can be appetitive. Some dogs are frightened of loud noises, yet others have no problem - eg my dogs can sleep through gunshots a few meters away while other dogs would run a mile. It's lound and to most unpleasant, yet mine dont give a rats.

I did not feel the need to describe every single detail indepth that made me come to the conclusion that she did find the noise very unpleasant, that she chose to investigate it, and that it initially startled her - because it was an unexpected loud noise.

I know you are a very knowledgeable person Nehkbet.

back to Corvus' topic:

Well I find with Delta I have to be more persistant than she is.

For instance she had to be taught that when I am paying attention to the other dog (Digby) she is not to come and interfere.

She doesn't respond to an "uh uh" in this situation, or me getting inbetween her and him or any of those sorts of things.

So basically if she comes up and interferes, without looking at her, or saying anything, I lead her back to her bed. Initially I had to do it constantly! But by being more persistant than her, I have taught her that when I am doing something with Digby she can go to her bed. She will still occasionally try it again, and I just have to put her back. like you said with Erik, there persistance will mean that will occasionally try it out again "just in case"

With most things I am using the clicker and she responds so well to it and is so keen to work for it that I am getting the behaviours I want.

I also find that with persistant dogs, you can't take any short cuts!

I mean with Digby and my last Dane I could leave meat on the bench to defrost, go out and leave them in the house and they wouldn't have attempted to steal the meat. I know I could not do that with Delta. She is always watching, she would know the meat was there and the moment I left she's be having some lunch

So I have to form some new habits, Digby and Mr Darcy have made me lazy.

The other day I was rushing to got to an appointment. I put the dogs in the backyard and took there collars off. Becuase I was running late I put them in a place in the backyard. A place that is quite difficult to get to, in fact I'm not sure how she got to them! It did not occur to me that she would seek them out.

I found hers in the middle of the backyard, and I still don't know where Digby's is!

Anything aversive she overcomes quickly. I don't use many aversives anyway, but for instance last night our fire alarm went off and after an initial startle reaction she went to it to investigate.

I wouldnt consider that an aversive. It more seems like she exhibits an initial residual hesitaion which she overcomes. You're lucky your dog obviously has some decent genetics.

nah it wasn't risidual hesitation, it was a startle response I happened to be looking her when it went off.

she startled, and then got up straight away and went to the source of the sound.

Anything aversive she overcomes quickly. I don't use many aversives anyway, but for instance last night our fire alarm went off and after an initial startle reaction she went to it to investigate.

I wouldnt consider that an aversive. It more seems like she exhibits an initial residual hesitaion which she overcomes. You're lucky your dog obviously has some decent genetics.

Maybe I was not talking about aversive in that it was applied to modify behaviour. But aversive also means a stimulus that is negative and elicits avoidance. I can tell you our fire alarm is unbelievably loud and painful, the other dog hid under the desk and the kids ran outisde. So I would call that aversive. Yet her curiosity was more powerful than her desire to avoid the horrid sound. But I suppose you would say that because she didn't avoid it it is therefore not aversive to her... meh. We still both get the idea!

As she was in foster care I knew what she was like before getting her - so I'm not lucky - I chose her because I loved that quality. She is utterly brilliant

Eric reminds me a lot of my my great dane.

They sound very similar.

Anything aversive she overcomes quickly. I don't use many aversives anyway, but for instance last night our fire alarm went off and after an initial startle reaction she went to it to investigate. Her curiosity knows no bounds and it means she works things out that other dogs wouldn't, because they don't try.

I know you weren't talking about curiosity but it seems to me that curiosity is part of it. Like Erik poking everything with his nose, is a form of curiosity. He wants to see what happens.

she is a rescue and I know her history from her former owners who didn't take her out of the back yard. Yet to see her you would not think she has had limited socialisation - she investigates everything and is not afraid of anything, and quickly acclimatises to any new situation.

I don't mean for this to be off topic.

It seems to me that these sort of dogs have that sort of personality set.

So are people saying you don't get dogs that are more persistent than other dogs?

no not at all.

I am wondering whether there is something about this nose poking that occasioanlly leads to a big reward.

I am thinking of the Poker-machine analogy (no pun intended). People will pull that lever hundreds of times because just occasionally they will get a big reward.

do you think something like that could be happening?

I think you can look at the concept of a 'practice baby' in lots of different ways. Obviously dogs and babies are worlds apart but I don't think the OP was meaning that they treat their dog like a baby or would treat their baby like a dog.

I wouldn't have thought it was that uncommon for couples to get a pet together first, not as a practice baby, but simply as a first step to sharing the responsibility of another life and meeting its specific needs and requirements together.

that's more how I see it.

I don't think dogs and children are worlds apart. Dogs and babies are quite different, but babies turn into kids soon enough.

The underlying principles are very similar: they learn in the same ways, both require discipline, consistency, time, commitment and teaching. They have needs that must be met by the owner/parent that require the owner/parent to sacrifice certain things. Also if you there is more than one parent/owner you both need to talk and agree on the way you are going to raise the dog/baby.

in fact my kids are basically raised on NILIF principles they want something, they have to earn it. Although admittedly you can't and wouldn't do that with a baby

so in that way I can see that it may be helful to have a dog before a baby.

Ofcourse I don't like "I need to mother something, so I will mother a dog, and when baby comes along the poor dog might not as well even exist" kind of thinking. But the OP evidently doesn't mean that.

Yay! its so noce when they do you proud

Hi there

I have used that method, but not in that way.

My old Dane used to like to sit his bone on our bed. So I yelled at the bone very vigorously while he watched (you should have seen the shocked look on his face ) I only had to yell at it twice and he never put it there again.

My Dane also liked to steal clothes off the washing line. So intead I tied a tug to it and encouraged him to play with the tug and after that he didn't pull down anymore clothes he just pulled on the tug instead

good luck! I hope you find a good solution.

Also if long walks in the mud are out of the question maybe you could try to mentally fatigue him with clicker training (especially free shaping) or teach him 'hide and seek'.

Oh absolutely agreed, just wondering if we should give them plenty of time to learn how to interpret one another; or whether that aspect will just never improve...

If both dogs have been extensively socialised, my guess if that they will read each other well enough.

yeah that's what I was thinking

I don't know if its logical to think that just because they each look a certain way they can't interpret another's body language? I mean I think an Akita would be able to interpret a noisy dog, even though they are not noisy themselves Unless ofcourse they have only had limited experiences with other dogs. Has the Bulldog been socialised to other dogs?

I can see though that if they are both dominant and female maybe there could be problems from that.

I hope it all goes smoothly tonight It would be lovely if it could work out!

Find where puppy has peed

wipe with paper towel or thick tissue

allow to dry or for added zing use fresh

voila! Instant puppy pheromone attractant pad! And it even smells like him too!

Forget the gimmicks, use his own poop and wee.

definitely.

I fostered two five week old pups.

I set up the puppy pen with bedding at one end and papers at the other end. I put some of the drops stuff on the paper to encourage them to go there, and they didn't. However if I didn't put it there they happily used the paper! So it actually seemed to put them off.

Ofcourse I regularly took them outside for toiletting but because they were so young I had to use papers as well

I have a narrow experience with both these breeds.

I have met one GSP in my time, but he was a foster so I got to know him well

An aquaintence of mine has an English Pointer and We see each other on walks and introduce the dogs etc.

BUt from that I would say

the GSP is a lot more excitable! Definitely not reserved! He was always everyone's friend.

He was extremely mischievous!

The English pointer seemed much more laid back, less energetic. And a bit more reserved. He's a very smoochy dog with his family and easier to manage, than our GSP.

They are both lovely dogs

That is so sad

I think there grief might be prolonged because of the uncertainy.

Have you thought about having a kind of ceremony for her? Not a funeral ofcourse, but something that acknowledges what she meant to each of your kids.They could write or say how much they love her etc. Acknowledge that she may not come back, but say that you will keep looking for her, and that if she one day comes back that you will all be ready to welcome her back.

I just think that sometimes having a ceremony can help people to come to terms with things a bit better.

so sorry Silverblue

I'm really sad. I have entered my boy, but he hurt his leg last week and is currently in a cast. No fractures and most likely just a really bad strain. But still, a lame dog that has to perform a miracle to go. I was so looking forward to going. I haven't been to a show in ages

hey Kalindi,

you don't happen to work with Jacob Michelsen do you?

I sure do!

Oh cool, I thought it might be you

You probably don't remember, but I am Mr Darcy's owner (the Dane with vertebral malformations who saw Jacob last year, and sadly didn't make it home).

I remember you talking about showing. What breed do you have?

I thought that was him in the photos! Of course I remember.

I have an American Staffy. Who won't be making an appearance by the look of things

oh poor pups; I hope he gets better quickly. There is another show at Wagga in October, hopefully he'll be ready to go for that one

I haven't actually ever 'met' an Amstaff!

Are you working at the new Vet hospital? I'll probably see you around there sometime if you are :D

Ishy,

I have heard smeone else say that the RSPCA there runs good classes.

You can always ring them up, ask lots of questions, and then ask to come and watch a class

After the class maybe you could even ask some of the people if they are happy with it.

That's what I would be doing: looking up places, asking questions, watching, and talking to the people there.

ETA: you could always re-ask this question in the General Thread, or in the training thread. Maybe that will get more replies

I'm really sad. I have entered my boy, but he hurt his leg last week and is currently in a cast. No fractures and most likely just a really bad strain. But still, a lame dog that has to perform a miracle to go. I was so looking forward to going. I haven't been to a show in ages

hey Kalindi,

you don't happen to work with Jacob Michelsen do you?

I sure do!

Oh cool, I thought it might be you

You probably don't remember, but I am Mr Darcy's owner (the Dane with vertebral malformations who saw Jacob last year, and sadly didn't make it home).

I remember you talking about showing. What breed do you have?

With Emmy, she is still a puller but after watching TerraNik's video on how she walks when she does obedience, I did an experiment with Emmy... I used a short lease and clip it on my walking belt and I hold cheese in a fist and we walk. her focus is on my hand with the cheese or me. every 10-15 steps, i give her a cheese and reward her for "nice walking". We just repeat the step. It worked brilliantly. Although, my hand smells like cheese

Note: Emmy LOVES cheese and will do anything for the tiniest piece.

yep, use a clicker, or a verbal marker and take lots of treats (yummy and healthy if you can) and start out by virtually treating for every step that he is by your side. Maybe just even go back and forward in front of your house. Or start practising in the house or back yard.

As he gets the idea, you can wait until he walks beside you for a a few steps and every few steps that he walks by your side he gets a treat for. Slowly you can drag it out keep giving him lots of praise and use a very happy voice to encourage him to focus on you.

Also never at all move forward if he is pulling.

if he gets ahead of you, either lure him back, or do a sharp turn and start again.

another helpful thing you can do is attach him to your belt while in the house. Have treats on you as well. And just do what you are doing with him tagging along. This helps teach them that when a leash is on, they are going where you are going. Also it means he is close to you so you can re-direct him from doing naughty stuff, and you can reward him for the good stuff with praise and pats. you can even do impromptu training with the trats :D

ALSO

Obviously he is finding it very exciting to be out on the street. Maybe you could try to just take him out for very short periods a few times a day and just 'hang out'. encourage him to lie down - give him a tummy rub. Do things that encourgae him to relax.

When he has learned to relax at the front of your house, cross the street, or walk a small distance and just hang out again. Make sure when you are trying to get him to relax that you relax yourself. Yawn, relax your shoulder muscles, sit down and take a break.

I'm really sad. I have entered my boy, but he hurt his leg last week and is currently in a cast. No fractures and most likely just a really bad strain. But still, a lame dog that has to perform a miracle to go. I was so looking forward to going. I haven't been to a show in ages

hey Kalindi,

you don't happen to work with Jacob Michelsen do you?

Poor pup. PTS is the kindest option.

I agree with this.

It is a really sad situation for that pup, she soounds like she has suffered and is suffering (due to her temperament).

I think PTS for this pup is a mercy.

Rehabilitation to a point where she would be a 'safe' dog to be around, I imagine would be a long road with lots of stress for her along the way - and maybe she would never get there.

Same!! All her accessories are pink. My OH hates it!! I think she looks more like a boy, so I want it obvious that she is a girl. Though, according to OH now, she is 'gender indifferent' because she had her hysterectomy. Men just don't get it!!!

I hope I won't be thought of as gender indifferent if I need a hysterectomy at some stage

I have a Great Dane with a pretty pink collar - but often people still think she's a boy - because all big dogs are boys, right?

loving all the photos, they are so cute

I know someone who has a horse that hates dogs, and not only will kick them but KILL them so they can certainly do a lot of damage!

errr yep.

I witnessed my horse bolt for a dog that entered his paddock pick it up in his moth and toss it metres away - when it landed he went for it again.

incidentally the dobermanns he was brought up with were treated to gentle nuzzling

my horse got a fright from a gunshot once and landed on my foot and fractured it in two places.

If it was me, the dog would have had a vet visit and it wouldn't be going to herding unless the Vet pronounced it fit to do so

my first dog (great dane) was reactive.

His reactiveness was extreme excitability (he would bounnce vertically, not unlike Tiggar from Winnie the Pooh, and bark) in response to dogs and people to a lesser extent. There was no aggression involved thankfully, just out of control excitement. It was so hard to deal with....And very hard because he was so big, 15 kgs heavier than me infact.

I did work hard at it though (he only lived to 14 months so I only had him for one year) and it was in the last couple of months we got big improvements. He would drop upon seeing a dog and keep heeling when he saw a person.

But occasionally he would still be set off and I couldn't really work out why.

Apart from that he was a really lovely dog.

The hardest thing is staying confident and positive.

Definitely owners of reactive dogs could use a support group!

i just felt that since he was outside at the breeders, then instead of having him stay in at night when ultimately he was going to sleep outside in the end, then instead of moving him around all over the place he could start out and stay out. less confusion for him.

my question was more about the toilet training, i never expected to get slammed about where he slept!! specially as he doesn't seem to have a problem with it!

sorry I didn't answer your actual question.

I didn't mean to 'slam' you.

I am genuinely curious about what it is that appeals to you about having your pet dogs sleep outside... I thought there may have been an interesting reason for it.

but obviously the thread wasn't started for that reason, and you have no obligation to say why. But it doesn't stop me from, being curious!

here are several smiley faces that are my attempt at ahowing you I don't mean to make you feel uncomfortable, and that I bear you no ill wil or anything like that

:) :laugh: