Simply Grand

This is part debrief for me, part asking for other people's experience...

I want to get back into obedience with Quinn and hopefully get to trialling and at least CCD/CD stage. We have done some lower level obedience at a club before we moved, and progressed somewhat just practising ourselves but have a way to go before trialling.

Tonight I went along to the local community obedience club, there is only the one here, and chatted to them and watched the classes. The lady I spoke to was nice and helpful, she explained how they work and everything and was very welcoming. She also explained that different instructors have different approaches, which I know is how it works at these clubs and that's fine.

I asked about using treats for rewards and she said that's fine. We can work on flat collar, check chain or head collar but not harness, and no clickers. That is all fine, we'll do flat collar and verbal marker.

My concern is I watched the classes for the hour and at all the levels that I could observe there was a lot of emphasis on physical manipulation of the dogs and very little on mark & reward.

Most dogs were on check chains, including in the puppy class, and many of the others on head collars and students were encouraged to check often, pull the dogs around when heeling (on both checks and head collars ), physically cue/place dogs into position and use harsh verbal "GET DOWN" "NO" "STAY" type commands. Praise and affection were encouraged as rewards after exercises were completed but only after using the physical stuff to do the exercises in the first place.

I'm confident enough in saying 'no I won't be doing that' with my own dog, and even with suggesting other things to others if the circumstances arise, but I'm worried that I'm 1. Going to get frustrated and distressed watching all this; and 2. Going to piss off instructors by disagreeing with them and not doing things their way.

Any experiences / suggestions on how to deal with this?

Oh huga thinking of you and your family. I think you absolutely did the right thing giving her a wonderful last day then a peaceful passing.

Run free gorgeous Lola, what a little character you were.

And, despite what some people may think, they can get along just fine with Staffies, as long as the staffy learns quickly to respect the size different and be gentle.

Re Toy Poodle, great little dogs, so much fun BUT definitely go for a reputable breeder who focuses on both health and temperament as they can have issues with both, get into some obedience training and socialise well (but carefully) with everything including other dogs as they do need to learn how to behave calmly around other dogs so they don't get themselves into trouble. They tend to trigger prey drove in other dogs, through no fault of their own, but if they panic and run they can end up hurt.

Also, don't fall for their cuteness and treat them like a toy instead of a dog, they are VERY good at learning to manipulate humans but they respond beautifully to training and consistency and being treated like any other dog :) And you can teach them lots is fun tricks like walking on their hind legs, twirling and high 10!

The little hand is an emoji on iPhone ✋????????????

FYI thistle is hip height and we still get bunny hops. Impatience for treats! ;)

And I can carry her in one arm! (For small distances. Like 1 metre. Confidence building exercise XD)

Lol omg! I was going to say, I can pick up Quinn with two arms and carry her a bit but she is knee height and under 20kgs. If you are carrying Thistle you are superwoman!

...jumps on me the second she can tell I've woken up and gives my face a good licking until she is satisfied I am suitably dog-smelling *sigh*

I would like to think that these days vets, pounds and shelters are much more aware of chip migration. We certainly scanned the whole body if it didn't show up between shoulder blades when I was at RSPCA.

A chipped dog with up to date details does save a lot of resources of the dog ends up somewhere that can read the chip and contact the owner. And gives an indication of whether an owner has no idea where their dog is, or knows and does not want to get it back (yes, that happens).

Dog Fan wrote:

And yet we still have unregistered dogs. Just goes to show legislation and threats of punishment do not work

It doesn’t prove anything of the sort. All it proves is that many of the current standards lack the detail necessary to be enforceable or are simply not there in the first place.

For example, terms such as ‘reasonable actions’, ‘reasonable access’ and ‘appropriate feed and water’ are not defined in legislation. What do these terms mean? They are not defined so authorities are reluctant to proceed.

We must remember that the issue is much larger than a supply issue. The pet industry is worth billions of dollars a year to the Australian economy from vet services, pet insurance, grooming, pet food, pet toys and more. You can’t just shut puppy mills down without it having an effect on the economy. There has to be legislative changes to deal with this.

What we are seeing now is

• Serious health issues in dogs as a result of selective breeding for specific aesthetic traits.

• Poor health and welfare for breeding dogs cause by high intensity commercial breeding operations and a lack of resources to ensure compliance.

• High rates of impounding and euthanasia.

• And more

and are symptomatic of a system which allows for the treatment of companion animals as a perceived right rather than a responsibility.

As identified in the NSW Companion Animals Taskforce in its 2012 report, companion animal welfare and management is a whole of community responsibility involving breeders, pet shops, pet owners, vets, law enforcers, local and state government, and animal shelters and holding facilities. No one group or entity can be looked at in isolation.

There are so many things wrong with the current system and requires a holistic approach. The changes will happen eventually but it will take time and implementation of them will be gradual. For instance:

• All dog breeders to be licensed

• Breeder license number to be part of the microchipping information

• Requirement for all pounds, shelters, vets and RSPCA facilities to report to ensure enforcement

This type of reporting legislation is nothing new. It has already been implemented i n the financial services industry as part of the money laundering legislation. It covers the financial sector, gambling sector, bullion dealers and other professionals or businesses that provide services covered by the Act

...so the current desexing strategy is in place because it doesn't work thus protecting the sensible economy associated with the pet industry, while at the same time it gives the impression the authorities are doing something to address the pound issues and overpopulation?

Nah, obviously the devils in the detail.

No one can be trusted to be responsible.

So we license and set out every last detail of breeder protocol to be followed. No more reasonable action, reasonable access or appropriate feed and water. Tell 'em how many litres per kilo over 24 hours. The details of any reasonable action, exactly what an approved enclosure looks like and punish any deviation. Make it a strictly regulated, licensed industry so puppy farms will be a thing of the past. (not)

So we all know what responsibility looks like. We will finaly understand dogs. And none would dare to deviate.

Sorry. I still say very short sighted. I can almost guarantee that within a single human generation 'pet' dogs would be almost non existent. Problem solved.

Well meaning maybe, but very little understanding of any real value behind the partnership between man and dogs or how to preserve that. It is NOT by taking responsibility from Man and placing it with government, informed by 'industry leaders'.

Yep. In many places there already are laws around all this stuff and they are not laws that make the lives of animals better overall, despite being well meaning. AND they can only be enforced for those that abide by them AND they aren't necessarily enforced even then.

Dog Fan wrote:

And yet we still have unregistered dogs. Just goes to show legislation and threats of punishment do not work

It doesn't prove anything of the sort. All it proves is that many of the current standards lack the detail necessary to be enforceable or are simply not there in the first place.

For example, terms such as 'reasonable actions', 'reasonable access' and 'appropriate feed and water' are not defined in legislation. What do these terms mean? They are not defined so authorities are reluctant to proceed.

Not true - terms such as reasonable actions, reasonable access and appropriate feed and water are not pertinent to legislation surrounding registration and identification.

To suggest that in NSW the current legislation for for identification and registration of cats and dogs is lacking in detail or not there in the first place is rubbish.

Looks to me that it shows that legislation and threats of punishment alone don't work for a very large number in our community

Exactly. The rules are very clear. Just not enforced so people who don't care or don't know don't bother.

Clarke's Rubber? I haven't looked but they sell all sorts of rubber products.

ETA oh it's Clark Rubber

But Dogdragon, legislation doesn't get introduced or changed without there being political will to do so. And political will comes from there being support for something from the majority of the public.

Do you really think the laws around smoking would have gone through if the majority of the public protested them?

Would laws around racial discrimination have changed if the majority of those people with the right to vote didn't want it?

Why are laws around the sale of alcohol so cautious compared to laws around prescription and illicit drugs when alcohol causes just as many problems and just as much cost to the country? Because the majority don't want that.

And those are laws that are enforced to a higher extent than companion animal laws are because the public is happy to have public money spent on enforcing them. People can see that having and enforcing these laws benefits everyone.

Convincing people to agree with large amounts of public money being spent on enforcing companion animal laws is a much tougher sell because it doesn't impact on everyone, and what we are talking about in this thread is ultimately about the welfare of animals, not tax paying, voting humans.

Education won’t change the puppy factory attitudes, education won’t change the view that a certain breed of dog is good for the fighting ring, education won’t change the fact that people will still buy a dog because their circumstances are good for a puppy at the moment and then 6 months down the track the landlord says you have to move because that dog is making a mess of my property, etc etc etc. The

list is endless and no matter how many education programs you plow money into, not much changes…….yep, you will never change the nutters, not sure what you mean by the high achievers…..

You are never going to re wire humanities impulsiveness, the best you can do is manage it to minimize the impact of the victim. Humans buy with their hearts. They impulse buy, and dump with their heads, they rationalize why they should remove that dog from their lives. That’s a fact. Education hasn’t changes drink driving, it hasn’t changes drug use, it hasn’t changed smoking, it hasn’t change racism! Why do you think an education program (with I might add, limited funding) would change the amount of dogs in shelters?

Why is it that we don’t dump teenage humans? We deal with the issues and push through the problems but we dump teenage dogs. Its all to do with the rights of the entity and that is where the real issue lies. Of all the species’ we should afford rights to, it should be those who share our homes, our lives, our evolution!

It wasn’t that long ago that we (humans) took other humans as slaves. We justified this by rationalizing that the colour of your skin dictated the rights you held. We do the very same thing with with women and the very same thing with the one entity that contributed to what we have became today, the dog! Legislation, TSD is the only way.

But we already have legislation around lots of things (microchipping, breeders permits, registration, age of sale) and it isn't fixing the issues because it isn't enforced. More unenforced legislation won't change anything either.

Education and changing the attitudes and will of the majority works two fold - 1. in changing people's behaviours; and 2. in changing political will and pressure on governments to spend resources on enforcing the legislation we already have.

Those two things are what changed things with regard to slavery and the rights of women, and are why rates of things like drink driving and smoking rates, and racism, actually have reduced, not just a dictatorial government putting in new legislation without the will of the majority behind it.

Your mistaken, it is in force. the problem is the target is the only tracable people,registered breeders.

Its been very successful less and less bred every year.

get rid of the real supply and don't think you can find a puppy from a registered breeder. there aren't enough bred Australia wide to supply even one state.

Sorry, what is in force where, and how? And with breeders registered with who?

I'm not clear on what you are saying.

And "enforcement" on all of those social networking/advertising sites means the admins removing the ads, not someone acting on the actual breeding and selling of the dogs.

And another thought, I don't like it when trainers, or anyone, make blanket statements about "you have to do this" or "you can never do this" full stop. I prefer the approach of "if you want your dog to do this, you need to do this, and this is why".

As we've seen just in this thread a problem behaviour for one person is not a problem for someone else, what works in one household doesn't work in another. Training should be about what sets up this household to have happy humans and happy dog, that are also not presenting problems to any one else.

I always remember doing a training session with a woman who was struggling to deal with an energetic adolescent largish mixed breed dog. One of the things she was worried about was walking him and she said he doesn't pull too much but he won't stay on my left side he likes to be on the right. She'd been stressing during walks about keeping him on her left and when I asked why he had to be on the left she said because that's where they're supposed to be isn't it?

My advice was unless you're wanting to compete in obedience (she wasn't) then let him walk wherever works for both of you! You could see the relief in her face when she got "permission" to just relax and wall her dog how SE felt like it.

Oh I also meant to say, I don't actually have a big problem with TRAINERS teaching pet owners that "leadership" in the form of setting boundaries like stay off the furniture unless invited, don't walk out in front on lead, wait until you're released for food or at door/gates etc, will help with behaviour and obedience.

If those kind of things are taught through rewarding desired behaviours, being consistent, giving clear cues etc and they give the owners a sense of control over their dog's behaviour without resorting to harsh punishments then I think they are fine.

And explaining it as "be the leader" is a lot easier for a lot of people to understand, especially in a short space of time, than trying to explain learning theory and quadrants and relationship building and reward history and how dogs do respond well to feeling confident that they can turn to you for guidance in difficult or stressful situations rather than reacting on their first impulse etc etc.

I think where it is risky is when less experienced people (like those in my FB group) take the over simplified explanation they've gotten from the trainer and start implementing in situations they haven't covered with the trainer or even worse, give advice to other people, without understanding the complexity behind it.

Actually there's a well regarded (and by no means bad) trainer up here who has the same kind of philosophy, even for dogs just needing some general manners and obedience training he says you cannot have them on the bed, walking in front of you etc because it means you aren't the "leader”.

These sorts of trainers should be banished. I imagine he is okay with the basics, but all this leader and dominance business has caused so much harm to dogs and owners.

So called Dr Cam by any chance?

I'd be really interested in whether it is Dr Cam as a friend whose dog has terrible anxiety is saving up to see a vet behaviourist and he's the only registered VB in Brisbane, where she lives. Her dog would completely melt down with some of the dominance theory based strategies.

No no, not Dr Cam *goes to research Dr Cam.

I don't think the guy I'm talking about and his other trainers, are extreme with the dominance stuff, I'm not 100% sure but I don't think they do a lot of physical stuff and I don't think they're promoting hard corrections etc. I've only seen a presentation an demo from them myself but a number of people in an FB group I'm on have trained with them and from what they've said about their training and the advice they give others it's pretty clear that there is a strong emphasis on the idea that behaviour issues primarily stem from the dog not seeing the human as their pack leader.

Stuff like that someone's dog who walks out the front of owner and other dog and pulls on the lead is pulling because it sees itself as the leader because it's allowed to walk at the front, for example.

Yes, you could definitely do showing and sports with an Aussie Shepherd. Grooming' pretty easy (a weekly brush, trim a knot out here or there, bath as required - and I do less than that atm and she is fine )

They do like to play rough, but mine and others I've seen are pretty good at modifying their play depending on who they are playing with. Mine is very gentle with small dogs and although she plays "rough" with my toy poodle x (5kgs ish) and my Sheltie, she does adjust her style and be much more careful about where she puts her feet with them than when she plays with a bigger dog and has never hurt them.

Pretty easy to live with really, except that they are CLEVER and some (mine) will be into everything - she can open the fridge, oven, cupboards, doors, baby gates, and she is curious so always wants to know what everything is. She just figured out opening the back security door, meaning she let herself out the back, which she shouldn't be doing unattended because she can also jump the fence *eye roll* My house has to be carefully child proofed.

She's great fun though :)

Actually there's a well regarded (and by no means bad) trainer up here who has the same kind of philosophy, even for dogs just needing some general manners and obedience training he says you cannot have them on the bed, walking in front of you etc because it means you aren't the "leader".

Oh I didn't even take it seriously! Does he really say you shouldn't let your dog initiate contact?!?

I'm with you guys, like I said mine walk on me and climb on me and lean on me pat me, if I don't feel like it I tell them to move or stop but otherwise we all enjoy it

It's the old if they sleep on the bed/walk in front of you/go through doors before you/eat before you they will become "dominant" over you story.

Education won’t change the puppy factory attitudes, education won’t change the view that a certain breed of dog is good for the fighting ring, education won’t change the fact that people will still buy a dog because their circumstances are good for a puppy at the moment and then 6 months down the track the landlord says you have to move because that dog is making a mess of my property, etc etc etc. The

list is endless and no matter how many education programs you plow money into, not much changes…….yep, you will never change the nutters, not sure what you mean by the high achievers…..

You are never going to re wire humanities impulsiveness, the best you can do is manage it to minimize the impact of the victim. Humans buy with their hearts. They impulse buy, and dump with their heads, they rationalize why they should remove that dog from their lives. That’s a fact. Education hasn’t changes drink driving, it hasn’t changes drug use, it hasn’t changed smoking, it hasn’t change racism! Why do you think an education program (with I might add, limited funding) would change the amount of dogs in shelters?

Why is it that we don’t dump teenage humans? We deal with the issues and push through the problems but we dump teenage dogs. Its all to do with the rights of the entity and that is where the real issue lies. Of all the species’ we should afford rights to, it should be those who share our homes, our lives, our evolution!

It wasn’t that long ago that we (humans) took other humans as slaves. We justified this by rationalizing that the colour of your skin dictated the rights you held. We do the very same thing with with women and the very same thing with the one entity that contributed to what we have became today, the dog! Legislation, TSD is the only way.

But we already have legislation around lots of things (microchipping, breeders permits, registration, age of sale) and it isn't fixing the issues because it isn't enforced. More unenforced legislation won't change anything either.

Education and changing the attitudes and will of the majority works two fold - 1. in changing people's behaviours; and 2. in changing political will and pressure on governments to spend resources on enforcing the legislation we already have.

Those two things are what changed things with regard to slavery and the rights of women, and are why rates of things like drink driving and smoking rates, and racism, actually have reduced, not just a dictatorial government putting in new legislation without the will of the majority behind it.

Hahahahahaha!

Saxon and Riley sometimes compete over sitting on

my lap and occasionally will move further and further up me to be the closest until I end up with a bum in my face and push them both off.

When I worked at RSPCA ACT we were lucky enough to be given the opportunity to do what we called "Super Puppy" protocol, which seems to be very similar to Puppy Culture, to the extent that we had the time with our shelter born litters.

We just couldn't do the full extent of what you've done Starkehre but it was so awesome to have management that saw the importance of this really important early stimulation and socialisation. We did the daily minor stress type stuff from a few days old with handling, upside down puppy, sideways puppy, tickle the feet, pinch to toe pads, different surfaces, different temperatures etc as much as we could. It was great.

I would love it if it was practicable for all shelter and pound litters to experience the protocols as shelter puppies are so behind the 8 ball anyway that anything that can be done to help set them up for going to their home is great.

ETA it was SO tough to have to play with puppies as part of my job :p

http://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/fact-sheets/pets/pet-road-tests/dog-dumpage/#.VzUcsI9OJhF

I provided this link before, but I just noticed something interesting: have a look at 'The 10 breeds most dumped due to aggression are' figures: if you would let people with less background knowledge guess the first ranks, it is likely that they would mention pit bull breeds first...but the stats show it is just not true!

Eta: also interesting: Maremmas don't bark, are not aggressive, but are on rank 4 of the most dumped dogs!

I didn't click but is that a Burke link?

It is. It's a "study" conducted in 2003 by Burke's Backyard and the RSPCA apparently. I just had a quick look through and there's no way that "research" is giving an accurate picture.

First, it says it looked at dogs SURRENDERED to the RSPCA. I didn't look at exactly what that comprised but surrendered could include those that are brought in personally by owners who can't or won't keep them any more and those voluntarily surrendered rather than seized by inspectors. The large number of dogs that are found roaming, brought in by inspectors or members of the public or left by owners in drop off cages anonymously are not actually SURRENDERED so were they counted in the stats?

Secondly, it refers to specific pure breeds, which pound/shelter dogs rarely are and even more rarely actually proven to be (ie. with pedigree papers).

Thirdly, it mentions, among others, the Hamiltonstovare and the Egyption Hound as not dumped at RSPCA at all in 2003 (surprise!) AND SAYS that the breeds not dumped at all are presumably "the best dogs". Yes the fact that there are not many Hamiltonstovare dumped at the RSPCA in Australia is clearly an indication that they are automatically "better" dogs *eye roll*.

Finally, there is no Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bull Arab, Kelpie or Border Collie in the list of "most dumped dogs". Really? So staffy types and working herding dogs are LESS common at RSPCAs than the "most dumped" breed Maltese? Righto.

I hadn't looked at the link before but I'd say there is no way that is accurate or useful information in this debate I'm afraid.

But what's going to make all the people that don't abide by the current rules - all those who don't register their dogs, who breed without breeder permits, who sell or give away puppies without microchipping and below the minimum age, and those who buy from them without carrying about any of that and do the same things - follow more stringent rules?

And if councils/local governments aren't effectively enforcing the current rules so people get away with doing the above without any consequences, how or why are they going to enforce more stringent rules?

Seems to me it would be making it more difficult for the people who do the right thing, who are not the ones whose pets are causing problems and ending up left in pounds and shelters in significant numbers in my (hands on) experience, and the people doing the wrong thing will just continue to do the wrong things.