Simply Grand

I don't agree that desexing should be the last line of defense, I think with how thing currently are it should be the default, as long as people (like me, and you Willem) have the legal option to opt out, as we currently do. As far as I am aware, keeping entire dogs has different requirements according to state/local government but is not illegal anywhere.

See my earlier post:

I think one thing being missed here is the "in between" group of pet owners that are NOT irresponsible uncaring people that don't bother picking up their pets when they escape and get impounded or breed willy nilly for money or don't care that their pets roam BUT are also not "crazy animal people" enough to learn all about pet health and management and breeding and be on forums.

The average family who has a pet that they care for just fine. Like my family growing up. We had cats and small animals and they were fed and safely houses and came inside and were played with cared for and given regular vet attention, but my parents weren't "animal" people who researched all the options. Our cats were desexed because "that's what you do". When chipping and rego became requirements we did them because "that's what you do". Had those things not been either encouraged or required I doubt my parents would have thought about going off and researching the best options or building enclosures or keeping inside our male cats. They wouldn't have wanted kittens so had we had a female get pregnant they probably would have looked at the options but because it was "just what you do" all out cats were desexed by 6 months and we never produced more cats that would need homes.

I think that is the aim of the rules and the encouragement around desexing and I think if we are considering stats about the effectiveness of the program's we would have to take all this "in between" owners into account as well.

Having worked full time in a shelter, doing surrender interviews, doing behaviour assessments on both surrenders and stray dogs, doing behaviour modification, teaching classes, seeing the positive results of good early socialization and training, and the sometimes unfixable results of thoughtless breeding, making the decisions about which animals will live and which will die, and holding them as they die (that is not by any means meant as a guilt trip but just to say I have experienced the raw end result), as well as considering what I know of scientific research based evidence, I believe THOUGHTFUL, CONSIDERED BREEDING is VITAL.

If that means the default is desex so people CANNOT automatically breed legally with no consequence, but have the right to spend some more effort and money in order to keep their dog entire because it's what they believe is best, then I think that's a good thing.

Ok, thank you for your response, how you have expressed it makes sense and makes clear your concern :)

I don't necessarily agree things are as black and white as you are saying, but I also don't think legally mandatory desexing is necessary or effective in solving the issue of unwanted dogs (different story in roaming cats but that's another topic). I don't necessarily think discouraging desexing in general would solve any of the problems raised though either.

I think desexing/management of entire animals is one part of a whole paradigm of responsible animal management that would only be effective as a whole, and is unfortunately not where we are at in Australia.

And just for context, personally, as mentioned growing up we always desexed our pets, including a guinea pig after an oops litter (we thought they were both girls), as an adult I desexed my pet cats, desexed one dog at 6 months, one at 13 months when he was fully grown (small breed) and have one entire 4 yo bitch who has been through a number of seasons now and has had no issues, who I hope to breed if I can do so properly but who will be desexed as she gets older whether she has a litter or not.

ETA the dog desexed at 13 months had a testicle retained in his abdomen which can apparently increase risk of cancer so in his case desexing reduced health risks.

Apologies if I've missed it or lost track in the discussion, but Willem what is the actual problem you are identifying with this thread?

You've brought up a number of different issues in the general context of desexing - registration cost, health impact, number of dogs in existence, dogs in pounds and rescues, dogs being put down in pounds, behaviour impacts of desexing - that I am not clear at all on what your actual concern is.

I think one thing being missed here is the "in between" group of pet owners that are NOT irresponsible uncaring people that don't bother picking up their pets when they escape and get impounded or breed willy nilly for money or don't care that their pets roam BUT are also not "crazy animal people" enough to learn all about pet health and management and breeding and be on forums.

The average family who has a pet that they care for just fine. Like my family growing up. We had cats and small animals and they were fed and safely houses and came inside and were played with cared for and given regular vet attention, but my parents weren't "animal" people who researched all the options. Our cats were desexed because "that's what you do". When chipping and rego became requirements we did them because "that's what you do". Had those things not been either encouraged or required I doubt my parents would have thought about going off and researching the best options or building enclosures or keeping inside our male cats. They wouldn't have wanted kittens so had we had a female get pregnant they probably would have looked at the options but because it was "just what you do" all out cats were desexed by 6 months and we never produced more cats that would need homes.

I think that is the aim of the rules and the encouragement around desexing and I think if we are considering stats about the effectiveness of the program's we would have to take all this "in between" owners into account as well.

You should be proud of them Starkehre, they are awesome :D

Oh Maddie I'm so sorry SM.

Diva, re the dropping the leash thing, I had/have exactly the same concern as mine are inclined to go exploring and have no road sense. With our attack #2, where I fell over, I accidentally dropped the leashes anyway and even though Quinn was pinned and couldn't go anywhere, and the two boys are on a coupler so would have to cooperate to run off, none of them actually tried to run off, they stayed close to me even afterwards.

Same with attack #3 the other week, I didn't want to drop the leads as we were actually on a road, but no one else was coming to help and I had to get hold of the attacking dog so I did, and again they didn't run, they stayed close to me.

No guarantee off course but I guess you have to weigh up the lesser of two evils.

The moment breed is raised in any of these discussions, the argument is lost.

The issue of a dog's danger is about genetics AND socialisation (or the lack thereof) AND environment AND history AND owner AND 'victim behaviour.

Clearly the larger the dog, the bigger the risk of serious injury and the more difficult for a human to deter.

But seriously people, can the breed bashing/defending. That's precisely the kind of specious thinking that got us BSL in the first place.

We're on a dog forum. Lets talk like knowledgeable dog people.

Also meant to say, yes, exactly!

Yes, on your own in a dog fight/attack I think it would be very difficult to actually get close enough and aim enough to get a finger up a bum, especially if longer fur is involved. I guess I'd try it if I had to though.

Thanks Snook, that would be great. Totally understand about wanting to keep where you take Justice to yourself, you have to keep your focus on doing the right thing by him, I'm sure she'd love any tips she can get though and even just contact with someone who understand how tough it is :)

Silentchild, I don't enjoy our walks around here at all now, there are just too many dogs around here that fence run at the front and most fences are low and could easily be jumped if the dogs were so inclined so I just have a knot in my stomach the whole time.

And I've been really lucky that my dogs haven't shown ill effects from their attacks but you never know if once more might be the time that either I can't stop it or it does psychological damage to the dogs.

Unfortunately I don't have a car at the moment so they are not getting out much unfortunately, but I will be getting a car soon and will be able to take them safer places :)

Having spent a lot of time at dog parks I have several times headed off or interrupted before noise and snapping escalated fights by grabbing both collar and a handful of scruff (skin) and twisting HARD and lifting.

I've actuallly held my Aussie Shepherd and a German Shepherd apart one in each hand until someone else grabbed the GSD doing this (breeds only mentioned for size reference!). This was a "we don't know each other and are trying to establish our relationship" fight though, not a trying to kill each other fight, so I'm not saying that would always be possible! Some guy that was there commented that I was brave (with the implication of also stupid) but it was a case of if this keeps escalating my dog is smaller an less strong so she won't come out best and I have to do something.

The three times my dogs have been attacked, as in targeted by a dog that meant business (not gotten in a two way scuffle) it ended because:

1st time - my Sheltie grabbed by a much larger dog. Other dog owner went to pull her dog away, he still had a grip on Riley so I said don't pull, I held Riley up towards the dog's mouth so he wasn't hanging and we all stood still until the other dog let go to adjust his bite and we pulled them apart.

2nd time - off lead dog on the street approached my Aussie Shepherd on lead, they sniffed, then the other dog launched for Quinn's neck. Quinn fought back briefly but realised she was beaten and tried to get away, I managed to fall over sort of right next to Quinn on the ground and somehow ended up with a grip of the other dog's scruff and my thumb in its mouth in that gap where they have little teeth behind the canines and again, the dogs and I all sort of stayed still for a moment, with it having a grip on Quinn but not a full one coz my thumb was in the way...and then just because of adrenaline and frustration I roared at it to "f***ng let go" and pushed my thumb hard at the roof of its mouth, and it did enough for its two owners to pull it away.

3rd time - the other week, walking my three, loose dog comes barreling out an open gate straight at us, I saw it and started roaring and it to get away. It aimed for the smallest dog, poodle x, and grabbed a him several times, then had a few grabs at the Sheltie but I think because there were the three dogs plus me and the Aussie Shepherd yelling and charging at it and me kicking it wherever I could get to, it couldn't get a good grip. With this one I got hold of it's collar and scruff and twisted and lifted, and that actually stopped it, then I held it with one hand while I got one of my leashes off my dog and got it in a slip around the attacking dogs neck and held it up, choking it (then the owner finally came out and got it an abused me *eye roll*).

I'm SURE with this one if the dog had been able to get a good grip on the neck of one of my little dogs my dog would be seriously injured or dead. It did try the neck snapping "death" shake thing but thankfully didn't have a good enough grip in the confusion. And if I had had to choke the dog to death to stop it I would have, not that I wanted to but when you are scared for your dog's life you don't really give a crap about the other dog.

So my tips are

1. Keep an eye out always so you can hopefully see trouble coming and get on the front foot with going towards the dog, charging, stomping and roaring (I know that sounds dumb bit it really is roaring, not yelling, as deep as you can, growly so your throat hurts afterwards, and LOUD)

2. Always always wear good enclosed stable shoes or boots when you take dogs out so you can run and/or KICK if you need to (I HATE seeing people out with their dogs in thongs)

3. Go for the collar AND scruff and twist hard, and lift and hold

4. Get a slip lead around the neck if you can and pull up hard

I think one of the important parts is how the humans react, you have to stay calm and not scream or cry or panic (I know easier said than done). I think you being calm and taking action keeps your dog/s a bit less panicky and incites the attacking dog less, and (again sounds dumb) I like to think if what is going through your head is "this is not happening, I am stopping this" you project it a bit to the dogs maybe.

Hey Snook, no pressure whatsoever and I haven't said anything to her, but a friend of mine who I worked with at RSPCA ACT has just moved to Adelaide and she has dog reactive Border Collie. This is their FB page:

https://m.facebook.com/HelpJayln/

If it is something you are up for, I'm sure she'd appreciate just the contact with another Adelaidian who has a pretty severe dog reactive dog.

She also has NDTF qualification, RSPCA assessment and training experience and another non-reactive dog so may possibly be able to give you an unofficial hand with Justice - again I haven't said anything to her about that.

As I said, no pressure whatsoever, but maybe there could be some mutual help there :)

ETA not sure if she'll know me as SG but she should know Claire from RSPCA if you wanna make contact and mention...

Oh SM, I'm so sorry, what a shock. I was actually thinking of suggesting booking in a farewell time with the vet so you know you can be with her but I wasn't it was appropriate. I think that is a good decision.

What a brilliant life she has had with you. And now a short period of feeling unwell but being spoiled and she will go to the rainbow bridge. I'm so sorry it is happening but I think you have done so beautifully be her

Oh Story is bootiful, I always had a soft spot for her

ETA *thinks about whether I might be ready for the Rottie I would love to have in a few years when Story might have babies :D *

Thistle, you know your dog best and I think you know the right approach to take with her but are doubting yourself because of what the class trainer is saying.

The approach of "keep exposing them to the distressing trigger until they realise their response is not achieving anything and stop doing it" is the theory behind CAT (constructional agresssion technique...I think!) and is NOT something I would attempt except under the guidance of an experienced behaviourist - not because a club trainer says so. And the thing is, with that approach Thistle is still going to have to endure the thing she is trying to avoid by barking, so it's showing her that no matter what she does she cannot avoid this thing she is still so uncomfortable with, which is not a desirable outcome to me!

I really think the approach of working from under her threshold and continuing to change her emotional response to being approached and handled is going to be more effective in the long term for obedience, but more importantly for real life. And for keeping her trust that you will listen to her signals and help her out accordingly.

DO NOT be afraid to tell the class trainer that you will not be participating in that exercise for now if you don't feel it's the right thing for Thistle right now. If s/he has a problem with that, it's her/his problem, not yours!

Hahaha Starkehre, it's a tough job but someone's gotta do it!

All our puppies are getting individual chicken wing time shut in a crate. so we are allowing them private time to discover the joys of eating bones safely and sensibly whilst also creating a positive association with a crate.

during the process we do "swap out" resource training with each puppy also with some roast chicken and so far not one is exhibiting any signs of resource guarding towards humans and I don't expect they will either. As soon as I open the door now, they drop their bone and look to me for their swap out treat or a pat. They can all also be patted whilst eating and have absolutely no issue with it at all.

No, I don't necessarily believe in bothering dogs whilst they are eating, however I do think it is important to install the software in the informative days that will set them up for not having that resource guarding default, at least towards humans. One never knows what will happen when the puppies go to their homes no matter how much parents promise they will manage their children :)

That's how I think about it too. After not having the knowledge to deal with it properly with Saxon when I got him, and actually doing the old 'force it off him if he growls' and making the issue worse, I was very conscious with the others to build a positive association with people around their food and a highly rewarded "give".

Same with handling all over, grabbing, hugging and even (gentle) tail and ear pulling. I've done all that with them from as soon as I got them because even if they don't particularly like it I want them to be used to it enough that if a child happens to do it to them they don't react with aggression. I want them to be safe around other people's kids and possibly my own one day.

I hadn't watched the video before. The owner isn't paying attention to what's going on around her at all, and she just lets the lead go, doesn't even try to hang on to the dog. And as Lhok says, muzzle in hand

How dare she be so irresponsible with a dog that has already attacked!

And the dog has "only been aggressive since it was attacked as a puppy" - so basically she's been aggressive most of her life. Not an excuse! And yeah, she may "never attack a human" but a human walking their dog and getting in between an attack to protect their dog could well be hurt. Ridiculous that this was allowed to happen.

Happy birthday beautiful boy!!

Oh awesome, thank you! I was thinking it just applied to sitting rather than jumpin up but it seems like it can apply encouraging them to offer any behaviour that we want vs what their instincts might drive them to do, is that right? So it involves self control and communication skills from the puppy.

I wish I'd known more about this when Quinn was a puppy, I responded to her jumping up, as did other people out in public when she was little and cute, and the first few months of that took the next few years to train back out to desirable behaviours get you what you want!

So gorgeous

Starkehre, apologies if I missed it in one of the videos but why is it called Manding?

Aww, wasn't she gorgeous. Good girl Maggie.

So gorgeous :D I had a GBGV in one of my puppy classes, he was awesome!

Hehehe, I somehow think Miss Molly might always be the one getting the better of Puddenhead :D