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About moosmum

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  • Birthday 11/02/60

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    Anthropology,medical,natural sciences,animal behaviour,

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  1. Thats not O.K. Maybe a petition calling for more over sight so that animals are housed in a climate controlled area, in cages large enough to to avoid poking and prodding and checked for health, microchips etc 1st?. We shouldn't need puppy farms. I agree. When we make it common knowledge what goes into producing a healthy in body and mind pup suited to personal conditions of the buyer, puppy farms will not be viable. People will demand better. When we work to ensure its common knowledge, people will be more inclined to make better choices and take responsibility for them. But if they are looking for dogs that will be happy in a small backyard or unit with minimal care attention or need for excersize,or social requirements, yet remain placid enough to be handled by children, elderly and vets etcs, then maybe puppy farms provide an environment where those things are selected for. If we are going to keep dogs as toys for the elite and out of the public eye and need for concern, then perhaps we are getting what we deserve and ask for. As for more registered breeders taking up the slack, just look at the GSD thread in general. If all breeders are following the trends in the show ring because thats the only acceptable bench mark of the breeds with out being classed as a BYBer, who is left to question the trends set there? ? Who is left to say there is no need for a G.S.D to be the way the show judges favor, or for Pug to breathe if the K.C breed clubs are the only ones given authority to say what people should be allowed to own? I think the pedigree system would utterly collapse within one human generation. I know it would. Whos standards are we left with then, because the breed I have over 30 years experience with rarely meets MY standards when its bred soley for those laid down by the breed clubs and selected and tested in the show ring. Once we are there, where are you going to find buyers for these dogs who have any familiarity with dogs, their selection, care and on going husbandry and needs? What standard of new members would you have and how much knowledge would be retained and passed on to them by the older generation? It would decrease exponentialy. How may years does the average pedigree breeder last now? Not many. I believe puppy farms are a symptom of this idea that the 'common Man' should have little to do with dog breeding and selection because they are unfit, unless they are working within the limitations of a Pedigree organization. I believe the lack of responsibility is too. Because we refuse to believe its a possibility, we have to find the fault to condemn and hide the positives because we know dam well they will do the same to us. Of course I think we should be doing better. But I don't think we will get there by displaying every failure and expecting people to learn from that what possible to achieve or how its done. I don't think we will get there by demanding every fault and mistreatment be made impossible to occurr. I don't think it will happen if people doing good things are afraid to demonstrate what they have achieved because we are trained to find their failings and demand an end to them. When we don't say 'It could be even better if you do this" we aren't teaching how to do better. Just how not to do it at all. When only K.C breeders are permitted or encouraged to breed or sell dogs, you will not have an environment that supports the breeding of dogs. You will have K.Cs with no support, because they will breed for K.Cs and show accolades, not people. Dogs will be for K.C members only. We are heading there. That is the direction thats being pushed.
  2. I would not personaly buy a pup from a commercial enterprise. My experience and understanding is that the type of dog I look for has to be proven in a similar environment to that I would be keeping them in, and that he breeder has to have the same expectations of what they want in a dog as I do If my own expectations are likely to be met. I think that, in a nut shell, is what we need to be teaching the pet buying public. I don't expect guarantees. I think thats unrealistic. I do expect that the animals are selected for the purpose/environment they are fill, from 'stock' tested as successful in that environment. That they are exposed to any conditions they are expected to handle to demonstrate they can. That they are healthy, well cared for, and that the breeder/seller does have an understanding of selection for that purpose. We will NEVER eliminate welfare issues. We CAN reduce them by shaping expectations of better. Parklea markets could as easily be pressured to do better. Provide and insist on more suitable conditions. The fact that there was an out cry shows that we are concerned with welfare and do want better. I just don't think out right bans do any more than to increase ignorance in the long term about the realities of animal husbandry, or selection. I believe the increased ignorance from people isolated or unfamiliar with animals is largely what contributes to the impulse buys and support for less than optimal breeders. The puppy farm that helped to combat the Victorian Legislation sounded like they were doing a pretty good job. This should not be taken to say I think thats a good model. But its likely better than 'some' pedigree breeders. As long as we are going to concentrate on the worst examples in order to ban whole environments for the breeding or selling of animals, we will find cause to ban all of them. If you eliminate puppy farms and BYBers, that leaves ONLY pedigree breeders. Few oops litters. Pedigree breeders at present are so few they have little hope of meeting demand. No where near. There would need to be huge change in attitude in pedigree breeders to meet the expectations of the PET buying public ( or working dog buyers) to support a future demand. At present, the main expectation placed on a pedigree breeder is that they meet the demands of the standard, as it is applied in the show ring. That is the test of a pedigree breeders success- That is the environment a pedigree is bred FOR, and tested in. Yes, we need to reduce the incidence of badly bred animals. Animals being neglected, abandoned etc. I just think its far more effectively done if people are more fasmiliar with animals and what it is that contributes to the best of them, and to best of their keepers and that that is done best by example and demonstration. If we showcase what brings the best, people can learn to recognize it and seek it. They seek the rewards of it, and learn their responsibility to finding it. We have animals well integrated into a modern society. If we show case the worst, people won't recognize what DOES work. They will only learn what to avoid. They are taught there are only costs associated with animal owner ship . There is an expectation there is no place for animals in modern society. We expect the costs to be too great to justify them. There are very few breeders these days willing to put themselves out there to show what they are doing, what they achieve, and how it benefits the people who support them because we are all trying so hard to show the failures. There will be fault found in the best and thats what they will be held to account to.
  3. As long we aren't educating owners and buyers by discussion and by providing experience and incentive to get it right, you are not going to prevent impulse buys or ignorance. Venues aren't the problem, lack of better expectation is and you won't change that until you demonstrate what people should expect, and their own responsibilities to achieve those expectations. The more we remove dogs from the public eye, the less familiar people will be with dogs. The less familiar people are with dogs, the more mistakes will be made and lower the expectations will become. If people can't recognize an unhealthy dog that should not be bought or bred, or poor condition(s) its because they have little familiarity with dogs, and little understanding of what they should expect. Or the consequences of no expectations. Yes, some are just concerned with the money- but they wouldn't be supported through sales if people were familiar with and taught to expect more. Just maybe, those who are only concerned with the money would also understand to expect more than that, and that their buyers do too. If you want people to understand what 'doing it right' entails, Then "doing it right" has to be a visible example to emulate. Removing opportunity to do something at all just removes an ability to demonstrate ways it can be done better. No expectations at all there.
  4. Hi Ricey, Good to see you back. I agree. Environmental selection, basicaly. The dogs best suited to the environment they are going to, and their purpose in it. Or tested is as similar an environment as they are being chosen to enter. The show ring is fine, for those who want to show. It can't cover all purposes and I think thats where the K.Cs let breeders and the dogs down. It seems to foster a belief function must follow form.
  5. Thank you. I think so too. :) I may have done myself out of a dog tho'. :laugh: And I think for her, other dogs will have a hard time measuring up to her memories. She will have high expectations. Finding some one who works to meet them is already much harder.
  6. The little dog is left alone. Shes old and grumpy and deserves her peace. G.D gets that she is handled differently. And that ears and tails etc aren't to be pulled or grabbed etc. Looking gently is O.K. And she seems to have an understanding of Dog body (and sound) language already. The new Tentie pup is also getting some valuable lessons and forming a great relationship with children.
  7. And I have a great chance to teach both control. They are never unsupervised. Neither has hurt the other and they show a lot of affection. Try to hurt that child and you will see another side to the dog. No guessing about it. If you were producing dogs to be good with kids, how else to test that? If you want dogs able to respond to environments they will be kept in, that needs to be tested in the environment. I figure you can't expect to keep dogs protected from every environmental stress, and end up with dogs that can handle environmental stresses. And the same goes for my Grand daughter. I Think kids need to grow up with a dog. You would need to see this kid to believe how confident, how much empathy and maturity she has, and how physicaly competent. I may be biased. She 2 yo this month.
  8. Seem to enjoy it. G.D is NOT in pain in 2nd pic, just trying to get up! That IS her foot in the dogs mouth.
  9. Both learn.
  10. I think they do it beautifully.
  11. They play with oranges
  12. Looking after my Grand daughter gives me a great chance to teach my dog, and I love seeing the relationship these two have developed.
  13. I think kids should be taught to respect and interact with dogs. I think you have to teach the teach the dog to respect and interact with kids too. I agree the dog was not totaly comfortable and I may have stopped it sooner. But depends on what I know of the dog and kid. I think its a part of the socialization to teach a dog that patience is expected with kids, and to look to the adult ifs its really to much to expect. They have to understand whats expected, if you're attentions not on them for any reason. Just my view. It was no worse than annoying pups playing with a tail gently mostly. If I thought kid might pull or hurt, I would at least be directing that hand.
  14. Have you checked Elders? Being mostly primary producers they might offer different approach
  15. Don't get me wrong, I don't think theres any thing wrong with your approach. You work with what you understand, in the way the you understand it. If that helps people its great. Its the best we can do, yet. Maybe my approach would have been different if I hadn't come from a science back ground! I also had experience from a child, some times negative sometimes positive. My sanity also needed a response.I also studied. But nothing I read or saw convinced me any one 'knew' the answers. So I accepted what is part of me on the understanding it can't be explained yet, and can make others uncomfortable because it can't. It wasn't totally unfamiliar to my Mothers side of the family, but still makes most of them uncomfortable. I looked into paranormal research as a profession, but didn't like the approach here in Aust. I still managed to convince my 'non spiritual' father based on effects and probability. I still think there are laws at work that can be measured because a lot of my experience involves measurable physical effects. And study of physics is learning things that could begin to explain, If its used to look in that direction.