Aidan3

If someone did that to me, I would call it an attack even if it were very gentle. I think they are showing great restraint I would not respond with verbal aggression or by assuming a defensive position. Dogs carry knives in their mouths, they are very good at restraint and physical conflict avoidance. To use a fancy word, we assess our interactions with dogs with an anthrocentric view - a human perspective. How we see it and how the dog sees it are completely separate things. We "construct" ideas about dogs and believe them to be true, sometimes regardless of the evidence. Umm... if you were threatening to attack someone or an animal, I'm pretty sure people would do more than apply a light tap to distract you. Let's put it in terms that are closer to what is happening so the analogy is a bit clearer. Let's say you've been mugged and you are really nervous about certain situations, like when a gang of thugs are hanging out in a park. You see a therapist who has a radical approach to dealing with anxieties. It's not really based in science, but your friend saw him on TV and thought he was awesome and had really nice teeth so he books you an appointment (without your permission, but you agree anyway). The therapist takes you to a park, you don't really trust him but your friend seems to watch a lot of TV and reckons he's the best one on the telly so you go along with it. You see a gang of thugs hanging out in the park and you start to panic. The therapist tells you to go a bit closer, but it's really freaking you out and you're starting to have a full-on panic attack. Then, out of nowhere, he "taps" you in the groin with his foot. How do you respond?

I don't do agility so I have no idea what it takes to get the best from a dog in that sport, but I must say some of those handlers looked very frustrated. But I agree, not every stay is implicitly relaxed, and certainly not in that arena. When I mentioned my GSD before, this is what she looks like, but she knows she wouldn't be released if she crept forward or lifted her butt. Totally different situation because I'm holding the ball, tug or sleeve.

Sure. Do you see the same responses? Do you see them play like this when they are in a highly aroused, anxious state? Some of those "taps" weren't little either.

I agree with you but people are going to react differently, some will take a step back and stop but some will just become more enraged and lash out. You can see with some of the dogs, the "tap" has the desired response, but in others it provokes the dog into attacking him. What worries me is that he doesn't seem to know when it is going to elicit a negative response (like attacking him) or he doesn't care, or he purposely wants the dog to have a go at him. Exactly. It doesn't matter if "we" think it's the equivalent of shouting "Oi!" if the dog doesn't agree. If we really want a dog's attention or to break a fixation, taking the leash and walking somewhere else achieves that better than anything.

If someone did that to me, I would call it an attack even if it were very gentle. I think they are showing great restraint I would not respond with verbal aggression or by assuming a defensive position. Dogs carry knives in their mouths, they are very good at restraint and physical conflict avoidance. To use a fancy word, we assess our interactions with dogs with an anthrocentric view - a human perspective. How we see it and how the dog sees it are completely separate things. We "construct" ideas about dogs and believe them to be true, sometimes regardless of the evidence.

Some of them do. You think "injured" Aidan? Some of them look like they are being attacked. Whether they believe they will be injured or not I don't know, can't read their minds, only their bodies.

How do you relate that information to the average? And why is the average a good descriptive statistic for these purposes?

I've been wondering about the extent to which we infantilise dogs today, and what attributes cause us to do it. I think that would have a huge effect on how we interact, and I think appearances matter (not just age or behaviour).

Some of them do.

It's been many years since I've done it as a training method. I think there is a difference.

Looks pretty relaxed. I think Corvus said she didn't mind if her dogs changed position as long as they were calm. See why I use a tether? If they do that with a tether it's like an 'anxiety wrap'

....which illustrates how 'intelligence' is better defined as 'adaptable behaviour'. It's the extent to which thinking/action can be shaped in order to carry out certain tasks. And these tasks will vary according to what's required to survive & thrive. For domestic dogs, it depends on their 'tuning in' to human 'signals'. For the dingo, it depends on their being totally self-sufficient within the natural environment. This is sounding a lot like the debate in psychology about western definitions of intelligence compared to other cultural definitions of intelligence

that just put my spinone at the top of the list Yes, I could believe that! I like most gundogs for that reason, and obviously herding dogs also have that in spades. It depends a lot on the sorts of tasks we give them or the sorts of behaviours we value the most.

Have to agree - if there's one breed missing it's the Malinois Probably came in at No. 2 but the poodle refused to share billing with it. Actually, my recollection is that they came in at ... number 78!

Average scores shouldn't really be used to guide breeding practices. Nor, as can be seen from this thread, would they be a good representative of the population.

We don't really know how to measure intelligence in humans. I think we're a long way off defining and measuring intelligence in dogs. I like dogs that can solve problems and pick up on stuff that we don't necessarily have to teach them.

Yes, very true. And thank you for asking about my DDR bitch, she is a wonderful dog, many good qualities and she is very caring and considerate of my young daughter. Not without her problems, mostly health issues, and for a while there, fairly severe dog aggression. But she has managed to pull herself together, and is always good fun to work with.

I wish I had some video of my GSD when she was younger doing a several minute stay while she knew I had a ball or bite sleeve No breaking, but definitely not calm! Barely touching the ground

Hi Joe, I think so. I think most behaviour specialists have an understanding of the working dog and we've all seen the more extreme examples of dogs from a variety of breeds. I, myself, own a working line GSD from the old East German lines so I feel that I have a good personal understanding of their special needs (but I know very little about sports!) At the end of the day behaviour operates under principles that both the sporting expert and the behaviour specialist understand at some level. Some specialists, such as Dr Overall, also have a thorough knowledge of the medical side of behaviour (if they are veterinary behaviourists). I'm far better with reactive and aggressive dogs than I am at teaching pet manners or puppies, so we all have our special areas of expertise and areas where our learning has become "second nature" to us. In the case of a good sporting dog who is afraid of a crisp packet blowing onto the field (and I've worked with a couple of these) a good understanding of counter-conditioning is essential. That is something that a sporting expert would have some understanding of, but a behaviour specialist would usually be more competent with. I think we should always rule out medical problems, and sometimes drugs are the most effective solution, and a veterinary behaviourist is best in these cases. Sudden, unexplained aggression, and separation anxiety are two things I will refer straight away. A good many dogs really wouldn't have a behaviour problem if they were having all their needs met, so I think the role of the sporting club is highly under-rated, particularly in Victoria where Schutzhund has been outlawed. There are always alternatives, but some dogs (and owners) thrive under those specific conditions.

Hi Joe, I would think that if you were training for Schutzhund you would listen to Balabanov, and if you had a behaviour problem you would listen to Overall. I'm not sure that Balabanov really addresses behavioural problems as such, nor that Overall would even attempt to offer ideas for Schutzhund training. Dr Overall is a highly successful veterinary behaviourist with years of experience under her belt, so I don't discount anything she says unless it comes to aversion, for which her bias is evident. I think we can learn things from people with all sorts of backgrounds. Anyone who has won multiple titles at high levels of Schutzhund or the ring sports does know what they are talking about, but you have to keep in mind that they are not working with pet dogs, dogs with low drive, or dogs with less than ideal temperaments for those sports. Nor are they trying to solve problems every day such as what to do when two dogs don't get along very well, or what to do if a dog suffers from severe separation anxiety. On the flip-side, I doubt Dr Overall could tell you anything much about footstep-to-footstep tracking with a high-drive Malinois. So horses for courses.

I'm interested that you ask for a down for this Aidan2. When I teach tethering work I am careful to make sure that no sit/down/stay commands are given as once away from the dog it is too hard to control the dog breaking position. I just require that the dogs aren't pulling on the tether and barking. That's probably qualitatively very similar, but I really do like them to be able to go to sleep and having a specific position is a bit more black and white for people. If they learn that you won't come back unless they are down, it's not so hard to get them to stay there. They usually break a few times early on, so you get the opportunity to show them this by having them down from a few steps away, and then you come back. If they are breaking when you go out of sight, you go right back to taking a single step, which is not stressful for them, they can relax.

It's pretty much just my "Calming Yo Yo" protocol, with more distractions. Take one step away, return. Take two steps away, return. Take three steps, return. If dog gets up, ask him to down again, then return and start from one step away again. Once you're out of the room, start adding time rather than more steps. Once you can stay out of the room for a long time, start adding distractions, go about your normal daily tasks. The beauty of the tether is that they can't really fail and go find something more reinforcing. You can also do with two dogs who don't get along, separated by an appropriate distance and strong enough tether. So in some cases I think it works where Overall's RP would be difficult. The two could go hand in hand.

:D Here's some more. Malinois, not Dutchies but they could give my cat a run for his money! Those ones look a lot more comfortable, but I can't say I blame the Dutchies for looking uncomfortable - not a fan of heights myself!

I'm more like to suggest a long-down while tethered. Aim is for dog to stay asleep while you vacuum around him. I've not had any get that far, but I've come close.

I just had a look at some of their other videos. "Yes" to "lots of training" and "no" to "tiny steps"! Remarkable dogs, not convinced about the training though, OH&S is a bit scary. Very impressive to see all the exciting stuff, a little bit frightening to think what could go wrong.