koalathebear

Elbie would usually sit by the door or stand by the door waiting expectantly when he wanted to be let out. We decided that if we were in the other room, we'd prefer to have him make a noise so we taught him to bark by doing a little 'talk' gesture with our hands and making a woof noise. After a couple of times, he caught on. We let Elbie out pretty regularly anyway but if he wants to go out, he'll stand by the door and let out a quiet woof. It doesn't seem to have made him bark crazily. Alas, we haven't quite got him to master the 'quiet' command yet but as mentioned, he actually doesn't bark that much. Even when the neighbours two dogs are barking like absolute crazy, he'll stay quiet. What's very funny is that Elbie can have a VERY loud laugh, but when we do the 'speak' gesture, he lets out the most feeble and pathetic bark ever on the first go. His first bark will usually be silent - just a kind of smacking of his lips. It takes him a bit to wind up to a proper bark. We still haven't figured out why that is, but in any case the bark is loud enough for us to know to let him out.

Elbie has a lot of weird/cute things that we love. 1. When he's asleep and dreaming, his little paws will sometimes be moving as he goes running and he'll let out very tiny but incredibly cute little mini barks. I think it's rather adorable that he's dreaming of running. 2. When we drive up the driveway and he comes running to the gate to greet us through the fence, his ears are always quite high - still floppy but almost standing up on end. It gives him a very puzzled and quizzical look as if he's saying: "What took you so long?" 3. When he's listening, his ears pop up and go wonky and he almost looks like he's trying to use his ears to triangulate the sound - except that with only two ears its hard to triangulate His ears move around as he listens and it's a very funny sight - like he's moving antenna around. 4. Sometimes when he does something good, he'll immediately glance over at the treats bowl with a: "Do I get my treat?" expression on his face and it makes us laugh because it's so obvious what he's thinking. 5. We have a dog door installed now but only on the screen door and not the main door so he can only go through the dog door if the main door is open. He'll sit in front of the door and test the dog door with his paw to see if he can come in

I think we definitely need photos ...

Hee hee. That issue was a subject of not just one but two threads! http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...=199043&hl= http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...=199133&hl= I think the end conclusion was 'part teddy bear'

Thanks persephone - you've always been very sweet and supportive with your comments. It was a surreal day. The trainers at our obedience club (two specialising in border collies and one specialising in kelpies) have spent quite a lot of time with Elbie after hearing about our problems with him and they all assured us that Elbie was entirely normal, just behaving like a puppy, tht he was only 5 and a half months old, that we shouldn't 'freak out', that his behaviour was 'normal', that we were going to have a lot of fun with him and that he would be a great agility or obedience trial dog if we so chose. Conversely, we had our visit today from the behaviourist for about two and a half hours - almost 3 and it was very illuminating. I think what she emphasised the most to us was the difference between obedience training and 'good manners'. The success that Elbie had had with obedience had given us a misperception of 'control' over our dog and an overstated perception of his progress. Along the way, we had let things slip like eating meals after the dog and going through doors after the dog and while that wouldn't be a big deal for some dogs - it has apparently reinforced some undesirable behaviours in our dog. She said that he was as very clever and lovable dog but that he was submissive and a bit timid and that with such dogs, it was important to handle them carefully because if they were put in a stressful situation - they would bite. She said that with such dogs it was very important to have structure and respect in place. Thus, we have a lot of 'respect' work to do in the weeks ahead. My OH is in a much better position than I am because apparently Elbie has absolutely no respect for me whatsoever whereas he appears to have gained a degree of respect for my OH, although we were told that Elbie has very much manipulated things to his benefit. We are to make him do more things for free, cut back on praise and treats and use body language to give the more critical commands rather than using voice/hand gestures. I felt as though I had been run over by a herd of Tibetan Mastiffs after the session because even she conceded that we had really tried to do everything right but not all things were entirely suitable for a dog like Elbie who has been bred to work, to take advantage, to manipulate the situation and to stay on top of things. I feel extremely upset with myself for having inadvertently created or at least contributed to the situation through my conduct but her view was that Elbie's still young, very smart and very trainable. Anyway - as you mentioned, it was extremely illuminating and we did learn a lot about our puppy and ourselves and we have a lot of work ahead of us.

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. We have an Aldi kennel that's Elbie-sized. Today we went and bought some straw from PetBarn which we scattered inside the kennel. We also put a little dog bed on stilts in there - looks like a mini-trampoline. We got Elbie used to it inside first and after a few minutes he loved it and was lying on it as if he'd always had it. We've put it out in the kennel now and spent some time treating and praising him. He's gone in a few times - he still hangs out near the back door when he's outside but I suspect if it gets cold enough he will go into the kennel which is a lot warmer. He did try to eat the straw but after deciding it doesn't taste very good, he seems to just like scattering it

Just curious about what's wrong with science diet? Our puppy had runny poos when we first got him and after the vet's nurse suggested Science Diet, he's been great. Solid poops, shiny coat and seems very healthy and happy. I didn't realise that it wasn't a good puppy food.

missposted

That's so hilarious! I would LOVE to get Elbie a huge bone because I know he would love it and it would occupy him for hours but I read soooooooooo many conflicting reports about bones for dogs. I'd want to use it to occupy him when we're not home but while some people leave their dog with the bone unattended, others warn of all the terrible things that can happen (splintering/choking blah blah).

I was hoping that the OP heeded all the good advice she received and took the puppy inside in a crate. We had Elbie in his crate at night and took him out at 2 hour intervals at the start, then three hours. Now he can last 6 and a half hours - probably more, but we're being gradual to be cautious. He hasn't had an accident in ages, he toilets on command and he toilets in one section of the yard allocated to him. Admittedly it was a lot of hard work and sometimes it felt very surreal to be out there standing in the freezing cold giving effusive praise to our puppy just because he had eliminated

Haha. OK, I feel better then ... err I guess ...

The OP might have been frightened by all the replies. Sometimes it can be daunting ... I know everyone means well but sometimes the intensity of the responses can freak out people who are new to this place and also people who are new to owning a puppy. It's not that the advice is bad - it's excellent, but there's little point in giving great advice if the original poster is so freaked out/made to feel guilty that he/she runs away. This place is such a great resource and especially if someone doesn't have a lot of offline, I worry that we're cutting off the best line of communication/advice/support to both owner and pup

Unfortunately we wouldn't be able to come back at lunchtime so we can't crate him during the day - we both work too far away. He's likely to be left alone for 8-9 hours during the week. We'll investigate a coat for him - has anyone successfully put their kelpie or border collie in a coat unsupervised for a day? If so, which ones are recommended?

Elbie's inside at night in his crate. During the days he's spending more time outside in preparation for when OH goes back to work - I rejoined the workforce yesterday after having been off work for some months. So far Elbie's been pretty well-behaved for the several hours at a time he's been left alone in the yard but this morning was particularly cold and OH said that he saw Elbie curled up on the back step shivering and he felt bad so let him in. We won't be able to do that when we're both at work. At five months, Elbie's getting quite big but clearly he's still feeling the cold - any suggestions about what we can do? We can't have a heated kennel because I wouldn't want to leave Elbie alone with electric cables. We also can't leave him in the house alone because our laundry is combined with our kitchen and we definitely can't leave Elbie alone in the kitchen. We could put bedding in the kennel but he'd probably rip it up if he's left unattended.

maddijryan: I hope you come back to the forum. I know it was a little daunting for your first visit but as a puppy owner with lots of concerns and questions this place is a really great place where you can learn a lot. Especially if you live in a place without a lot of don't have a lot of puppy support (puppy classes, obedience classes blah blah) where you are, this place can really be helpful. Hope everything is going well with you and the wee one.

kumaakita: I'm sure he'll be great, too. I feel like I'm in dog heaven there - so many different dogs to pat and admire I haven't seen an akita but there's a little shiba inu and there are plenty of big fluffies :D clastic Bwahaha! Make sure it's two pairs of thick socks because my toes were still cold. I need to wiggle them more, I think. My OH is Elbie's handler during classes so I suspect that I'm cold because I'm the lazy slug on the sidelines :D tlc That is so cute - and would have made a great photo seeing a slumbering puppy amidst mad puppy mayhem. It IS very cool that there are other DOL people around at the same club. In addition to ILDD who is in our group, wuffles is in another class (in bronze) with the beautiful Ava. Clastic and Saxonpup are on the Thursday session so I haven't met them and their babies yet (alas) and soon kumaakita and her beautiful boy Kuma will make an appearance at the club on Sundays. I'm sure there are other DOLers there but I suspect that they are in more senior classes ... Also, I wonder if this makes me a terrible person but in terms of my 'classmates', I'm way better at remembering dog names that their owners :p

We also have gloves (with fingers for me and fingerless for my OH because he is the handler during obedience classes), a mat for Elbie to sit on and for use with training, our clickers, a favourite stuffed toy ...

Oooh I might have seen you - were you with a guy kind of standing near the clubhouse looking out? You should have come over I wore two pairs of socks today and two jackets and STILL got cold. It was foggy when we got there this morning - we get there early to try to settle Elbie. I'm so glad we're not at the Thursday night ones - it would be soooooooooooooooooooooo cold I would probably just keel over and die. Make sure you bring gloves as well - whoever is the handler needs to have fingerless gloves. My OH has freezing cold fingers this morning The classes are really good. I'm so glad you've joined. I forgot to mention before that the reason probably no one replied before was that the office is only manned on Thursday evenings and Sunday mornings and it's entirely staffed by by volunteers. Our instructor and her husband breed border collies and her dogs go to obedience trials and agility etc so she is very nice to Elbie. She even brought her husband over today especially to meet Elbie and to see his tricks. They said that he was a great dog - very smart and had great potential to do agility or obedience. Her husband kept saying he'd like to take Elbie home Elbie's having problems travelling in the car and our instructor was so nice, she came with us after class to study Elbie's behaviour and let us know when the tantrum turned into anger. She was going to drive around with us in the car but in the end didn't have to because Elbie went mental just from being clipped into the back seat. She watched him for a bit and she and her husband had told us that Elbie's behaviour was common in kelpie and border collie puppies but that we had to be firm. We're still going to get advice from a dog behaviourist about how to manage this behaviour but we feel quite relieved that Elbie's monster-like behaviour in the back seat isn't as weird as we thought. Our teacher said that Elbie wants to work so we're really going to have to try to channel his energy into obedience and agility as he gets older. By that time Kuma comes, hopefully Elbie will be in bronze (if he doesn't get kicked out for hyperactivity) and Kuma and Elbie can play in the little off-lead section of the club

we can't get the crate to sit flat in our car. It would be tilted on an angle even if we put the back seat down.

I've decided to email a behaviourist/trainer in Canberra - Heike Hahner to discuss the possibility working with her regarding Elbie's car woes. I'm not sure how many other people have used her services, but I saw her recommended in one of the other threads. While I would of course like to try to work through the problems myself, I'm worried about the behaviour our puppy Elbie is displaying when in the car. He gets very excited and anxious in the car. He is calmer when not strapped in - but that's just dangerous. When we strap him in i.e. hook a strap from the seatbelt buckle through a loop on his car harness, he totally freaks out. Today, we didn't have enough treats with us in the car and he started snarling and growling, turned extremely aggressive and started trying to bite me. It was a very freaky change in personality. Once out of the car, he was calmer again although he's been a bit on edge since - biting his bedding and when we tried to end playtime, he bit at my OH's arm (albeit through a thick hoody). We have been working with him a lot to desensitise him to his leash, his car harness etc but the car travel itself continues to be problematic because even when he's in a calm drop position, the feeling of the car turning makes him panic - he stands up, tangles himself in the harness strap, panics and then turns aggressive. As explained in the puppy thread, we realise we're not suppose to be sitting with him in the back, but we've tried two different harnesses and he can wriggle out of both despite the snug fit so we need one person in the back just to supervise him but not to comfort/baby him. We very much want to be able to have him go around in the car with us because he's a very sociable dog and his car anxiety/aggressive is quite upsetting. When getting a puppy we factored in vet fees, traditional obedience training - but know nothing about behaviourists and what to expect. Can anyone tell me what sort of things one would expect when you ask a behaviourist to help you work through aggression/fear issues with your dog? Generally how often would you meet with the behaviourist in a week? I realise it depends on the dog, the owners and the severity of the problem, but I just have no idea what to expect. Thanks very much in advance!

We found that a very loud and disapproving: "No!" was enough to stop Elbie chewing cables. He doesn't chew cables anymore and ambles around in the vicinity of telephone, speaker and computer cables all the time - under supervision of course. That being said, he does still attack his towel and the brand new dog futon we bought him

Urgh .. yes. Diarrhoea and onomatopoeia are the two hardest words to spell ... ever. Although I am quite bemused by the number of times I see the following words misspelt lately: definitely separation devastation/devastated

Hi there - I can totally sympathise and it does get a little better. Our dog (whom we love to pieces) is named Elbie ... which is the polite version of L.B. which stands for Little Bastard because he really can be a very exasperating little bastard when he's at his worst He absolutely howled/cried/screamed the first three nights we had him and I remember saying to my OH: "that's it, ad in the paper tomorrow - free to good home." Of course I didn't mean it, but I was incredibly stressed and upset that we were doing something wrong and that's why he was being such a monster. The house-training is a tough phase. I'm sure a lot of people will suggest crate-training him - I can definitely vouch for crate-training being an effective method of toilet-training. Believe me, once the toilet-training is under hand, a lot of the other stresses become more bearable. As to the diarrhoea, it would depend on what you're feeding him but our puppy had runny poo when we first got him and that's because we didn't know and switched him over to new food when we got him. Apparently you're supposed to find out what he was being fed before and then slowly switch him over to the new food. Since then, he's had fairly solid poos. Because we were in a rental and the rest of the house was carpeted (white!), for weeks and weeks until we moved into our own place, my OH and I found ourselves camped in the kitchen. We took Elbie out for toilet breaks at 3am, 4am, 6am and 8am for the first few weeks. Then it was less. We're down to just one toilet break at night for Elbie now, but I can tell you that in the beginning - the lack of sleep was gruelling. Also, during the first three nights? He did quite a few panic poos in his crate and our back deck was covered with filthy, poo-covered blankets as I pulled out the old blanket, wiped down his crate, put in a new blanket and tossed the soiled one on the deck to wash in the morning. By morning, there was *so* much for me to wash it was foul. Once he settled down though and stopped crying, he no longer fouled his crate. I know it's a drain on your sleeping time, but if you take him out every couple of hours he may be less likely to soil his crate. Puppies can't hold it for very long, unfortunately ... In the early days, we had to stand out there in the cold waiting for the danged dog to do his business but each time he did it, we said: "poop poop" and praised him heaps. Now he does it on command and there's no more waiting for ages out there. My OH and I take turns with "dog duty" when one of us gets up at 4am or 5am to 'wee the dog' and make him a fresh hot water bottle. The joke is that every time it's my turn - it rains!!! We also had sooooo much conflicting advice being thrown at us ... People telling us we were mollycoddling him, people telling us we weren't being attentive enough ... People saying: "What's the big deal, he's just a "dog"" when actually he was a very helpless, small, young lifeform 100% dependent on us that felt like a complete alien to us because we just couldn't understand what he was trying to tell us. My friends from farms in particular were very impatient with what they considered mollycoddling. "Just tie him up in the yard with a bowl of food and a bowl of water - he's a dog." Our view was that our puppy has zero control over anything that happens in his life and how sad and pathetic is that? It made us feel very responsible. My partner and I had imagined that we were VERY prepared to take on the responsibility for a puppy but it really does take over your life in the beginning. You spend so much time just reacting to each new incident/challenge/problem that it's difficult to have the time to just 'enjoy' having the puppy. Maybe more experienced dog owners can do it on auto-pilot but I definitely feel quite sad that when Elbie was smallest and cutest - I was so busy being stressed about his crying/toilet-training/health/mental state of being/socialisation status that he grew up and became a mini dog rather than just a puppy before I knew it Nowdays, we still have challenges with him but he's settled a LOT and he's part of our day and our routine so it's a LOT less stressful. Hang in there - maybe I'm in the minority but I will confess that I felt very much the same as you in the beginning. These days, Elbie has a personality, I see him growing and learning and it really is very rewarding

For Elbie, when we were in our rented house, we let him sleep in our bedroom in his crate for a couple of weeks. We just sectioned off the upstairs. He knew he wasn't supposed to go up there so generally didn't. He's a naughty pup so sometimes he'd do a quick scamper and run around there to look around out of curiosity but then he'd come back downstairs. I don't think you need to worry too much about Mindy getting confused. Also, we used a travel crate for when we were toilet-training Elbie so would carry the crate up and down the stairs and didn't let Elbie walk up and down to our room himself. That was mainly because the landlord had white carpet in the hallway Elbie was crying even in our room so we popped his crate on top of a box so that he could see us. We also kept our fingertips in the crate until he fell asleep. A week later, we didn't need to put our fingertips in anymore and we moved the crate further away and down on the floor. Like you, we'd tried everything - toy, hot water bottle, alarm clock, clock radio set to a boring talk show ... Argh Good luck!

Ah - what a shame you can't see the video :'( Celia looks gorgeous in the video with her little harness, trundling down a path. The shelter person said that Celia should be all right if the home already has a gentle dog - they can put bells on the gentle dog and Celia can follow the other dog around