koalathebear

I've seen pamphlets from trainers/behaviourists where they set out qualifications/training methods they have been taught/schools or courses they have attended. Calling yourself a formal KP trainer seems to require signing additional legal agreements but referencing her in your qualifications/promotional CV is probably when the requirement to adhere to her principles applies? I am merely speculating based on context. In any case, I was just browsing posts. I'm not looking to ever be a trainer/behaviourist :p

I don't think so. We don't have the full set of documents to hand, but based on the context, it wouldn't be a matter of conscience or law if you're just learning her principles for your own benefit. Nor would it be one if you were teaching others but you were just using your own name/reputation to sell your product and had recourse to the KP training without referring to it at all. In a way, that's almost as if you'd never done the course. KP would really only care if you were abiding by her principles or not if you were holding yourself out as a KP trainer. The brief provision in the handbook is probably just a very abbreviated version/summary of a much longer legal clause relating to quality standards/conformity and that sort of thing. You aren't likely to be able to access the full suite of disclaimers/contracts because frequently those documents themselves are protected by intellectual property laws and won't be out on there on the Internet for us to access. I think people are misinterpreting the undertaking to adhere to the principles as being something like promising to a higher being that you will be a good person. If someone has a copy of the commitments that people have to sign then we would know for sure but right now, based on context - it's a purely commercial/legal issue ...

Well I love your posts and think you communicate just fine! You think about things, you are very eloquent and passionate about what you write and you are clearly articulate based on the way you formulate your posts. There are some posts on DOL that remind me of clay pigeon shooting. You throw the post up out there and then great fun is had in trying to shoot the crap out of the little post/clay pigeon For me it's always interesting to see the posts that generate consensus or the ones that end up being spirited and divisive. You must enjoy it otherwise you wouldn't post ;) I think you were right to feel a little defensive because you were just posting some information and it was totally up to everyone whether or not they wanted to go or not. As far as I could see there was no coercion or even encouragement. In terms of the perceived requirement to comply with KP's "principals" [sic] when training, as has been pointed out, this is likely to be a branding issue. If someone is going to hold themselves out as using KP principles/being a KP trainer etc, it's not really acceptable if they use methods that are antithetical to those of KP. If you're just out to get more qualifications and more methods to pop into your array of learning, I doubt there's anything out there whether moral/legal or other that could compel you to comply with KP's principles. Furthermore, I'm almost sure that if you want to put KP's name on your advertisements/website/promotional materials, there are no doubt even more rigorous guidelines with which you must comply and to be honest, that's probably fair enough given that she has invested huge resources to developing her product and no doubt wishes to protect the value and integrity of this product. I think the issue is that her methods are well known enough that there probably are people who would want to go out into the world and publicise that they had trained in KP ways whereas with a lot of other courses, people wouldn't bother because no one would have heard of so and so ...

I think you might be right. It's not as though we're construing a piece of legislation or something in which we have to agonise about whether "allow" means actively "permit" or simply means to "not prohibit" OH is a cat person but he can't have cats because of my allergies - some might say that I do not 'allow' him to have a cat. The dogs also can't come into the bed because of allergies so some might say I don't 'allow' dogs into the bed ... Relationships are all about compromise. I know if I wasn't around, my OH would have cats but he's made a decision that he can wait until I kick the bucket until he gets one ;)

I guess we should just happy that the groom wasn't Joel Monaghan

ravenau1: I'm so sorry to hear about your breeder's situation. That's really horrific and must be so traumatising for her. I'm really glad that your little girl is ok but I hope that this hasn't been too upsetting for her. Have you heard if they've been able to return home yet? I also cannot understand people who deliberately light fires … wuffles: so sorry to hear about Satch. It was incredibly thundery/stormy/lightningy last night and I was anxious about my two as well but fortunately they seemed to sleep quietly through the storm or at least chill out in their crates. Given that he likes hiding under your bed, does giving him access to a covered crate or anything covered and blanketty make it any better? I guess there are just some things that our dogs are scared of. Elbie is so terrified of a robo-panda toy that we have in the house – just seeing it makes him bark like crazy. Good luck with Satch! Does Ava bark in sympathy? Hoover usually gives one bark in sympathy and then curls up and sleeps ;) lilli_star: there are different levels with the tuffies. I think we have a very strong one for our two but there's an even stronger 'high level' tuffy that can withstand tigers. That one sounds ideal for Ruby. But the weather reports say that we're going to have rains all through December … Elbie will behave and 'perform' if we take him out on leash. Hoover is not liking the wet weather at all and it's made him even more of a lazy slug in the morning. I have to drag him out of his crate in the mornings and then he dives back in as soon as he finishes his business. Yesterday, OH was drenched when we got home because he stood out in the rain with the dogs for half an hour waiting for them to toilet before they came inside then before bed he was out there for 45 minutes with Hoover. I wanted to go out and take over but I had a horrible vision of walking out JUST as Hoover was squatting for his business and interrupting him thereby incurring OH's understandable ire …

No accidents for us yesterday thank goodness. The dogs were outside for a lot of the day because we were both out - they have kennels and a dry place to hang out but they of course don't like being out there when it's raining. When they finally got inside, they did NOT want to go out again and last night poor OH stood for 45min in the rain trying to make Hoover toilet before bed. We KNEW that he had to go because he'd not gone since dinner but the dog was so stubborn Thankfully Elbie, once on lead and led to Poo Corner hastily complied with what was expected of him before scampering back inside again! Last night was a shocker though - LOTS and LOTS of thunder, lightning and extremely heavy, noisy rain. I woke up, worried that the dogs would be freaking out as it was their first storm that was that noisy. At one point, the lightning was so bright and flashy that it looked like daylight! Both our dogs were super quiet in their crates though. Elbie looks uncertain during the day when there's a storm but it seems like the crate 'filters' out a lot of Storm Intensity. ;) If the rain continues through all of December, I'm really not sure what we're going to do. I guess the doggies will just have to deal.

You're right about this. I see heaps of comments in various posts about how Working line Kelpies are generally unsuitable as suburban pets and the evidence is usually that there are heaps of Working line Kelpies/Kelpie crosses in the pound but sometimes I wonder if perhaps the pound representation is largely attributable to the fact that there are just lots and lots of Kelpies/Kelpie crosses around. OH and I are novice dog-owners - he's originally a cat person, I had a family dog before that just chilled out in the backyard and we now have two working line dogs - WKC-registered Kelpie and a Kelpie/Border Collie cross and we actually find them delightful as pets ... I'd never recommend them because I just see so many horror stories about working Kelpies posted by other people and wonder whether or not we just got lucky with our two dogs. I also wonder why Kelpies usually have worse press than border collies because the two breeds while quite different, have a lot of similarities but border collies are frequently more recommended as pets than Kelpies.

I know! I found the documentary really interesting but was a bit horrified by the foxes. As you say, I felt bad for the foxes that had bred to be tame and be affectionate with humans but were trapped in those cages and probably put down once their research use was done. I felt equally horrified about the foxes that had been bred to be aggressive – the scientist was all dramatic and saying: "This is not a fox, this is a dragon!" but I was thinking – the creature's probably frustrated/terrified and miserable being trapped in that cage its whole life. Also, their experiments of putting aggressive cubs with a tame mother to raise and tame cubs with an aggressive mother to raise sounded doomed to end in unhappiness I thought that the experiment was fascinating but it was difficult seeing those animals in that condition. Other than that, the documentary was quite thought-provoking. I haven't figured out if my dogs look left yet but they certainly understand pointing and will follow eye motions and head jerks. I've known before that dogs were 99% genetically the same as wolves but was quite interested by the fox breeding programme which bred towards tameness which then led to physical traits following tameness i.e. the traits we associate with 'cuteness'. I was a bit startled by the revelation that by breeding towards tameness, the dog is actually a juvenile wolf i.e. humans have artificially kept the dog at a juvenile stage of development. The example the woman raising the wolf cub was interesting but I wasn't sure how much could be generalised given that it was just one wolf and one situation – presumably there have been situations where wolves have behaved in a dog-like manner and been able to be quasi-tame?

Clastic - I'm so glad you found the two puppies again - it must have been terrifying. I would have been extremely anxious, especially in a strange neighbourhood. I don't think anyone would blame you for unlucky happenstance! If some mean lurker did leap out of the lurk to criticise you, you'd see a Peevish Koala at her most peevish. Don't be too hard on yourself! Our dogs wear collars most of the time at home but not all - some people say that they should never have collars on at home because they could strangle themselves. It's so hard to know what's right and hindsight is always an amazing thing Max#1: Yes, there was indeed another one of those threads today. We're watching "The Walking Dead", the zombie tv series with Sarah Wayne Callies (Dr Sara Tancredi from Prison Break) and whenever the walkers (zombies) spy a human, they swarm around it and start devouring it rapaciously and then more and more gather as they sense a wounded creature in the area. lilli_star: I recommend the tuffy toys - so far they've withstood our two playing tug of war on them constantly ...

Hope little James is ok. I know how worrying it is when they're off their food Keep us posted!

That's not the bon fido bed is it???? Ruby's been busy!!! Also, I hope you're feeling better today. We have had so much rain today - huge, huge puddles. OH came to pick me up from our office Christmas party tonight and he was waiting by the door with an umbrella for me and we still both got very wet. They are saying that it's going to rain through most of December! Egads!

O the rain will not stop and they are saying that it's going to rain through most of December. Doing a poo pick in the rain of wet poo is so not fun.

Heh. I've often wondered about this. I've read things about Dog Lovers Falling In Love With Non-Dog Lovers and experiencing Woe but what happens When Dog Lovers Meet And Fall In Love but their respective dogs might not get along at all!? In our house, I'm actually the fussy one. OH would let the dogs sleep in our bed if he had his way but I have allergies. They're allowed in the house (we deliberately picked laminate over carpet) but they are not allowed on sofa, day bed or in or on our bed.

I have a Kelpie/Border Collie cross. He is much more sooky and clingy than our purebred Kelpie Hoover. I've mentioned in another thread that when we leave, Elbie whinges and complains for a bit but usually settles down after a few minutes. When we put him outside, depending on his mood he might complain for a bit (a bit of whimpering, sometimes a bit of barking) but then will go and do his own thing. He only gets let back inside when he's quiet. When we get home, we ignore him and usually don't let him inside until after we've put everything away and settled in. When inside, he doesn't necessarily have to be in the same room as us but he does like the door open so that he can inspect. He's quite nosy so will follow us around to see what we're doing. If he's interested, he'll stick around, if not he'll go back to his dog bed or go back to playing with his toys. He will whimper and fuss a bit if the door is closed and someone is on the other side - but even then he'll usually settle after less than a minute. I don't see any barking/clawing at doors ... he also doesn't seem to be unsettled for more than a minute or so. We've adopted a "too bad" approach. I posted about it before because I wasn't sure if: (1) it was normal; (2) it was separation anxiety; or (3) it was just him being a manipulative so and so because we had been warned that Kelpies (including kelpie crosses) can be manipulative creatures that push situations to see what they can get away with. dancinbcs said that he sounded like the male border collies that she had owned except that he is content to be in a different room to us. She also said this, which I found quite illuminating: Hoover is much more self-possessed and independent. He loves cuddles but he doesn't pine so much if left alone. He has his unpredictable quirks as well but he is everything the breeder said he would be when she picked him out for us and he gets along very well with Elbie.

It's very weird. Elbie smells like our old family dog did and like all the other dogs I can 'smell' at dog school but Hoover's smell isn't so much a 'food spices' smell - he smells like medicinal herbs and grass. I had also wondered whether it had something to do with his medical treatments before he Left the Farm but like I said he's been bathed a couple of times since getting here and he still smells quite Herbal, which is rather lovely. Sometimes he's sitting there sniffing at me and I'm sniffing right back at him. ;) ETA: Most common dog names of late - Mia, Archer/Archie, Banjo

No idea! He grew up in this shed with his brothers and sisters and the only toy they had was one ball When we took Elbie out herding we were bemused to see the working dogs all locked away in relatively small outdoor pens – no bedding, not blankets, no heating – just one dog per concrete pen with wire mesh out the front. They seemed happy and healthy but I couldn't help contrasting how pampered household pet dogs are compared to their working counterparts. OH and I used to joke about how funny the 'conversations' must have been between Elbie and Hoover when Hoover first arrived: "Well back on the farm – we didn't have this or that" and perhaps Hoover thought Elbie was a pampered city slicker. When we went to see the herding trials at Bredbo, the working dogs were all locked up in tough-looking, sometimes rusty metal crates on the backs of trucks – we got a lot of looks for our bright blue, soft crate from Top Buy. Heh heh. This is what Elbie normally does. But when it's raining, we can only do this with the first time, after that he'll stand by the door and look at us as if to say: "What – you crazy? It's raining!" ;) When we had just one dog, Elbie would generally go and do his business and come right back. With two dogs, we have to do a little bit of herding to get them both there because if one of them gets distracted and goes dashing off into the yard, the other one will follow.

:p Just once or twice a day??? Wow. My two are on only two meals a day but are pooing, weeing machines - they must have fast metabolisms or something, no wonder they're so lean still :p My two normally bark once to be let out but when it rains - they do not. ;) We've solved the problem - we take them out one at a time on leash and lead them to Poo Corner to Do The Business. Normally they will toilet on command as well but when it's raining, all bets are off Usually, Hoover is bouncing out of his crate in the morning for his early morning wee but when it's raining, he becomes a lazy slug and doesn't want to come out of his crate. This morning, OH got him to the door and then the little wriggler bolted back upstairs and dove head first into his crate. OH had to carry him outside and then as soon as Hoover had finished his business, he ran back inside, up the stairs and dove back into his crate and buried himself among his blankets. ;) ETA: Normally they can go in and out at will via the dog door when we're home but when it's raining but they're not so keen to use it. Look what a wuss Hoover is - when it rains, he is prone to do this: So much for being a tough and hardy working dog. ;)

No need to apologise! ;) It does look like half of the tiny population of Canberra posts to this thread now and then

I've got a copy of the show and started watching the first bit – will try to finish it tonight. What I saw was very interesting although the voiceover and music was a bit dramatic. Made me giggle. When I was reading/watching "My Sister's Keeper" I was intrigued about the service dogs that can 'smell' when their owners are about to have a seizure and give them a warning. Extremely cool – but kind of weird at the same time. Sometimes I stare at Elbie and wonder what he can smell and whether he's overwhelmed by how smelly we are. On an unrelated but sort of tangential issue, Elbie and Hoover have totally different smells! Elbie has Traditional Dog Smell. He smells like a dog. Hoover on the other hand, smells almost like grass and herbs. I initially thought that it was because he was on the breeder's diet when he joined us and was from a farm but he still smells herbal even after all this time. Haha. Maybe that explains why he's so chilled and laid back, too. Last night OH was making a Christmas present and was using a heat gun – Elbie went absolutely bonkers and Hoover gave one sympathy bark in support of Elbie but was otherwise completely relaxed. Niques: Your wish for an Australian Shepherd can be granted! I believe the Ark might have an upcoming litter in the near future ;) Imagine how cute James would look next to his Aussie Shepherd Sibling. ;) The Ark: Haha! It does look like the Canberra thread sometimes but only wuffles, Clastic, KumaAkita, Primedogs, CleoJ and I believe foxyboi are in Canberra. The others are from Other Parts of the country. Your dogs are beautiful. Our two have gone on only two walks during this patch of wet weather but they seem to keep themselves pretty entertained by chasing each other around the yard/house and chilling out. I am very admiring of devoted dog owners who take their dogs our regardless of the weather – OH and I are not like that :p I guess we're lucky we have two couch potatoes who don't get destructive. The toileting problem has been partially resolved by taking them out one at a time on lead. Yes … there's usually no malice intended … it's kind of an unconscious way to make oneself feel better. I also used to see it a bit at school when I was little … white kids would bully an ethnic kid and then ethnic kid would go and bully a weaker minority kid ;) Oh well. I am so glad that the thread didn't implode with toxicity like some threads do. I don't have video footage unfortunately but Kuma definitely goes running around in the offlead area at Dog School with the other doggies but the funny thing is that quite often when he comes to a standstill, he finds himself draped with little dogs. * In other news, to my relief, the rescue group was happy with the video of Patch – who I agree could go well as a Pluto. To my relief, I was able to put together a short video for the other 'urgent' rescue dog, being . I had almost no photos or description of her so the video is very short but I hope it's enough to show off her pretty eyes, pretty colouring and lovely affectionate nature. It's so much easier when I can see the dog in person and OH can take photos and I can take the video footage. We'll be visiting one of Kate's foster carers this weekend to take footage of two foster doggies

Not sure Not only did he look miserable in all the photos but the video footage they gave me was about 15 minutes of poor doggy sniffing the ground ... Sigh. Anyway, is what I managed to cobble together based on what I got. Now onto Snuggles ...

O wuffles they are so beautiful. I love Ava's grumpy expression as she sits for the photo - she's kind of doing the seal ears that Elbie does, too. I also love Satch's 'whomp!" Sometimes for no reason, Elbie will just plonk a paw on Hoover's head. Cracks me up ETA: Ava still glows white. You must be touching up her photos in photoshop

I agree with this generally but was interested to note when I was looking for doggie #2 and speaking with the Working Kelpie Council, I mentioned that dog #1 was a Kelpie/Border collie cross from working lines and they mentioned that Kelpie/Border Collie is an extremely common and successful cross that is frequently used for working sheep. In fact, from memory, a lovely doggie from the early 1900s named Bantry Girl (apparently an outstanding sheepdog trial bitch) and her ancestors are the origin of the Kelpie breed as well as part of the foundation of the Border collie in Australia. Kind of like the Great Great Great Grandma of Border Collies and Kelpies in Australia. Perhaps that's why that combo at least is regarded as notionally reliable among working lines? It is certainly the case though that crossbreeds are extremely unpredictable. I know this for a fact.

I was a bit bemused about this, too. Kelpie coats at least are supposed to be very low maintenance. Perhaps they just gave Kelly a follicle massage or something.

Urgh. Poor you. I hate it when my tummy is not happy. Some hot tea might also help to settle the stomach. I hope you feel better soon!!! Yeah and when one's going to be a stickler for the rules, one should read the rules which say: So she was in compliance unless she called it a Teacup Kelpiedor and said that everyone should totally go out and get one from their local pet shop now. Yes, still a bit peevish sorry. In other news, Hoover has the most graceless 'sit' ever. Doesn't he look appalling? Also, I have to make a rescue video for this dog urgently. The photos aren't very good, I have no video footage except the dog sniffing and the dog's name is Goofy, which seems so weird given that in every single photo of the dog - he looks miserable. The problem is, his long-term carers are going to kick him out apparently so he needs a home asap - I've been told I can change his name. So far, I can only think of Patch because I didn't like the suggestion of "Pirate Pete". If anyone else has any suggestions I would be eternally grateful.