itsadogslife

Check out these frisbees as well. http://www.outdoorgearstore.com.au/wham-o-eurablend-frisbee-discs.html They are not as durable as rubber frisbees but they are lighter and easier to throw. They also have a storefront in St Kilda if you are anywhere near there that sells the frisbee.

Here is an exercise called the long down (or sit on the dog). Great for teaching self control as well as being very useful http://sanityshome.blogspot.com.au/2010/01/sit-on-dog-aka-long-down.html here is a pictorial of the exercise: http://sanityshome.blogspot.com.au/2010/01/sit-on-dog-pictorial.html

That is very true Kavik, I desire a relaxed, calm, well mannered dog. I know what Kelpies are like, I have a very highly driven Kelpie. If Mogwai wishes to train his dog for competition, if he likewise wishes to train in drive then he should seek those methods that will bring about his desired outcome. But that wasn't as far as I can see what Mogwai was concerned about. It seems to me that Mogwai needs to lower the drive of his/her dog, at least on casual walks.

Your notion of 'understanding' is different to mine. A dog that cannot follow a command under distraction is (in my opinion) a dog that does not understand what heel means. There are different means in which to teach this, but I recommended the Koehler Method specifically because it teaches the dog by using distractions as cues to focus. But as I said, there are different ways to teach this - each to his own.

You might wish to consider the Koehler Method of Dog Training. It's available at Amazon or maybe your local library may carry a copy. Basically my advice is teach your dog to 'heel', your dog cannot be 'heeling' and at the same time be 'herding'. It sounds very much to me that your dog does not know or understand what 'heeling' means, teach him that and your problems will be a thing of the past.

Teach him a place command and/or a down stay. Gradually work the down stay into a stay out of sight, gradually increase the duration. Most kinds of obedience training (e.g. walk at heel, sit, drop, recall etc) will help your dog gain confidence.

I use traditional methods to train. My dog likewise waits for me at the door before entering. Likewise I have never taught this. Although in my own case, I suspect it might have something to do with my clumsiness - though I have no memory of this occurring - it may be the result of my entering the door at the same time as my dog and his getting caught in the doorway. lol. For others it may be different, indeed their could be as many different reasons as there are dogs.

Most trained behaviors require the occasional reinforcement (or correction). But again, behavior that requires constant reinforcement is neither intrinsically rewarding nor trained. It may well be counter-productive to train behaviors for agility to the same level of reliability as for obedience, i don't know. I do know that sheepdog herders will often repeat commands to their dog as the nature of their work is fluid and always changing - agility may well be similar. It doesn't change my position however.

I'm sorry, but I do not follow the way in which people are responding to me. Of course extrinsic reinforcement is useful, I use it all the time in my training. I don't know anyone who doesn't. My point was that a dog that cannot maintain a behavior without extrinsic reward is nether trained nor 'loving' what he is doing.

By the way, just to avoid confusion - as I think almost all discussion here seem to be discussed through the prism of competition - I have no interest in competition for competition sake. Many of the behaviors seen in competition these days, whilst impressive if trained well, hold no interest to me.

Sorry, I don't really see the relevance. Are you saying sheepdog herders would do better if herding wasn't so intrinsically rewarding to the dogs?

As the exercise requires my participation, the reward is self evidently my participation.

You must have missed the part where I said the need to constantly reinforce the behavior or else it drops off leads me to the belief that the dog doesn't understand.

You must be joking? I am really not sure I understand this. I presume Kelpies and Borders Collies love herding - where are the problems with this?

Fair enough, I agree. But I am also inclined to think that the point of teaching anything is to bring the dog to the point of understanding whereby the behavior becomes intrinsically reinforcing. The constant emphasis on extrinsically rewarding the dog seems to me at least, to be getting in the way of the dog's understanding. I mean if you saw someone who was constantly correcting their dog, you would rightly say to them that their dog does not understand. The need to constantly be reinforcing the dog is a least to my eyes an indication the the dog does not understand the value of what is being taught. Rather the dog is simply working for the value of the extrinsic reward. And yet whenever the behavior in question starts to drop off the advice always seems to be increase the extrinsic reward.