itsadogslife

Check out these frisbees as well. http://www.outdoorgearstore.com.au/wham-o-eurablend-frisbee-discs.html They are not as durable as rubber frisbees but they are lighter and easier to throw. They also have a storefront in St Kilda if you are anywhere near there that sells the frisbee.

Here is an exercise called the long down (or sit on the dog). Great for teaching self control as well as being very useful http://sanityshome.blogspot.com.au/2010/01/sit-on-dog-aka-long-down.html here is a pictorial of the exercise: http://sanityshome.blogspot.com.au/2010/01/sit-on-dog-pictorial.html

That is very true Kavik, I desire a relaxed, calm, well mannered dog. I know what Kelpies are like, I have a very highly driven Kelpie. If Mogwai wishes to train his dog for competition, if he likewise wishes to train in drive then he should seek those methods that will bring about his desired outcome. But that wasn't as far as I can see what Mogwai was concerned about. It seems to me that Mogwai needs to lower the drive of his/her dog, at least on casual walks.

Your notion of 'understanding' is different to mine. A dog that cannot follow a command under distraction is (in my opinion) a dog that does not understand what heel means. There are different means in which to teach this, but I recommended the Koehler Method specifically because it teaches the dog by using distractions as cues to focus. But as I said, there are different ways to teach this - each to his own.

You might wish to consider the Koehler Method of Dog Training. It's available at Amazon or maybe your local library may carry a copy. Basically my advice is teach your dog to 'heel', your dog cannot be 'heeling' and at the same time be 'herding'. It sounds very much to me that your dog does not know or understand what 'heeling' means, teach him that and your problems will be a thing of the past.

Teach him a place command and/or a down stay. Gradually work the down stay into a stay out of sight, gradually increase the duration. Most kinds of obedience training (e.g. walk at heel, sit, drop, recall etc) will help your dog gain confidence.

I use traditional methods to train. My dog likewise waits for me at the door before entering. Likewise I have never taught this. Although in my own case, I suspect it might have something to do with my clumsiness - though I have no memory of this occurring - it may be the result of my entering the door at the same time as my dog and his getting caught in the doorway. lol. For others it may be different, indeed their could be as many different reasons as there are dogs.

Most trained behaviors require the occasional reinforcement (or correction). But again, behavior that requires constant reinforcement is neither intrinsically rewarding nor trained. It may well be counter-productive to train behaviors for agility to the same level of reliability as for obedience, i don't know. I do know that sheepdog herders will often repeat commands to their dog as the nature of their work is fluid and always changing - agility may well be similar. It doesn't change my position however.

I'm sorry, but I do not follow the way in which people are responding to me. Of course extrinsic reinforcement is useful, I use it all the time in my training. I don't know anyone who doesn't. My point was that a dog that cannot maintain a behavior without extrinsic reward is nether trained nor 'loving' what he is doing.

By the way, just to avoid confusion - as I think almost all discussion here seem to be discussed through the prism of competition - I have no interest in competition for competition sake. Many of the behaviors seen in competition these days, whilst impressive if trained well, hold no interest to me.

Sorry, I don't really see the relevance. Are you saying sheepdog herders would do better if herding wasn't so intrinsically rewarding to the dogs?

As the exercise requires my participation, the reward is self evidently my participation.

You must have missed the part where I said the need to constantly reinforce the behavior or else it drops off leads me to the belief that the dog doesn't understand.

You must be joking? I am really not sure I understand this. I presume Kelpies and Borders Collies love herding - where are the problems with this?

Fair enough, I agree. But I am also inclined to think that the point of teaching anything is to bring the dog to the point of understanding whereby the behavior becomes intrinsically reinforcing. The constant emphasis on extrinsically rewarding the dog seems to me at least, to be getting in the way of the dog's understanding. I mean if you saw someone who was constantly correcting their dog, you would rightly say to them that their dog does not understand. The need to constantly be reinforcing the dog is a least to my eyes an indication the the dog does not understand the value of what is being taught. Rather the dog is simply working for the value of the extrinsic reward. And yet whenever the behavior in question starts to drop off the advice always seems to be increase the extrinsic reward.

I am sorry in advance if I give offense, I'm really not meaning to, but I find the above to be rather confusing. A dog that loves retrieving is not the sort of dog that needs constant reward. If your dog is losing interest in retrieving once the reward rate starts to drop then I can't see how it is the retrieving that he loves. My own dog, a Kelpie to whom I have only informally trained the retrieve, would literally run himself into the ground before he stopped retrieving the ball, or any other object I threw. I have never rewarded this behavior at all - other than to throw the ball. This is not meant as a brag on my training skills or method - I actually did very little in the way of teaching the retrieve - it is simply a observation on the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic reward. For my own dog retrieving is intrinsically rewarding hence there is no need to reward the behavior other than throwing the ball. A dog that needs a constant rate of extrinsic reward in order maintain its behavior is not a dog that I would say "loves" what he is doing.

I must have an unusual Kelpie then. I haven't played tug with him for months. But just went outside to check, he tugs like a demon.

Here is a video on teaching the "drop" or "out". This might be helpful.

I am not opposed to the use of drugs to treat behavioral problems. I got myself involved in this argument because I am highly dubious about the use of drugs as a first option. Especially used without consultation with a dog trainer experienced with these issues. The cycle of drugs is very hard for people to get off, one ought to be very careful about putting them on that cycle in the first place. The dog I refer has not shown any improvement in regards to the issues that he was brought to the vet for in the first place. Why is he still on drugs? Why is the vet still proscribing the drug? Probably because both parties think well at least their doing something.

On the contrary Aidan, the drugs apart from putting the dog into a constant low level stupor, have done nothing to resolve any of the issues the dog was first brought to the vet for. As I found out to my dismay when I inadvertently brought my own dog into the vicinity of said dog. It went into a immediate frenzy attacking my dog. I live with a doctor Aidan, I know how many doctors dole out drugs like candy to their patients because it is simply easier to do this than deal in meaningful way with a difficult patient. It is the 'reality' of the vet who continues to proscribe the drugs that disturbs me.

OK. Nope, still seems pretty simple to me. Having attended my local obedience club in Hobart on the domain (you may be familiar with this club) I would not call this a structured obedience program. I know that you or others may disagree, but this would not qualify in my experiment. I would require a professional dog trainer with many years experience as opposed to well meaning volunteers. That sounds like the kind of post-graduate paper that often serves to get people degrees but not much else. All obedience training is not equal. I would use recognized training methodologies. Because the stay (as an example, and not the whole) teaches more than simple behavior, it teaches the dog self control, to regulate its emotional state, to trust its owners judgement even when not around. A well structured obedience program involves far more mental stimulation and exercise than what I can see happening in the paper you cited.

Firstly, I am not attacking the OP. I was querying the wisdom of vets using drugs as a first option without consulting an experienced dog trainer. I have no doubt the OP is sincere and genuine in her concern and efforts for her dog. Just as I have no doubt in the sincerity of a couple of friends of mine who had been treating their dogs with drugs for the last 3 years. Said dog has not had a scrap of training mind you, let alone seen a dog trainer, but apparently the vet still happily proscribes the drugs. Having a different opinion is often thought of as rude. Nothing much I can do about that. I did give advice, you just don't consider it helpful (as is your right).

I said: - "a simple and obvious solution to this is obedience training" - the 'stay'(which I used as an example) is merely one part of an overall structured program that treats the whole dog rather than treating a specific behavior. The experiment couldn't be simpler: one group treated with drugs and 'behavioral modification' designed by behaviorists (as per the paper you cited), the other with a structured 10 week obedience program, run by an experienced trainer. O You will have to forgive me for thinking less of ‘behavioral modification’ as per the paper you cited, than of a structured obedience program that treats the whole dog rather than treating a specific behavior.

Aidan, the study compares 'behavioral therapy' with drugs, not what I would call 'training'. Obedience training treats the whole dog, not just some specific behavior. For instance, I notice the point: "The presence of ‘‘hyper-attachment’’ was an inclusion criterion for the trial and some of the investigators believe that breaking ‘‘hyper-attachment’’ is an integral part of the treatment of separation anxiety Pageat, 1995.." A simple and obvious solution to this is obedience training, a dog cannot be following it's owner around and at the same time be maintaining a 'stay'. I also note, "The aetiology of the disorder is uncertain, but may be related to heritable characteristics, early experience Serpell and Jagoe, 1995. or environmental factors." The fact that there is a chemical imbalance in the brain tells me very little without knowing the cause. In most cases I suspect it is environmental factors (such as lack of exercise and training) that creates these issues - for eg. the 'chemical imbalance'. If that is indeed the case, then I am opposed to drugs for the simple reason that they do not address the cause, but rather merely treat the symptoms.

So what? Please direct me to the medical research that shows the comparative benefits of treating these problems with drugs as opposed to training? He (she) did? How much experience training dogs does this vet have? What part of her medical qualifications involves training problems dogs so as to inform her of the best practices in treating this problem?