Sparassidae

You can only declare the item does not carry free title, as in, someone else has an encumbrance on the item - such as a bank. You can not by pass this portion of the consumer gaurantee "Sellers also guarantee that no-one has a legal right to take the goods away or prevent the consumer from using the goods." Either way, I don't intend to debate this. I am simply passing on what the law actually says, and what the ACCC has to say surrounding the issue. Feel free to disagree - we still issue contracts with our rabbits and snakes. I am confident mine will not hold up in court, but that's not really important. I wouldn't go to court over it anyway.

It has never been tested under Australian law. However, we do have this consumer gaurantee: Clear Title, free from securities and charges, uninterrupted possession http://www.accc.gov....Id/956994#h3_66 Some people misunderstand clear title - you can not advise the person they can not do x with the object. You can not limit what the person can do with x object. It is against the law. You can let the consumer know beforehand if the title is not clear, but a clear title means someone else has a stake in the object such as a bank with a car. It does not apply to "breeder contracts". I believe they're unenforcable. We looked into it with our rabbits and I was looking into it for our snakes and the ACCC gave me pretty clear answers. Any contract limiting what the person can do with what we sell is not worth the paper it's written on. A contract can not void consumer gaurantees. Ever.

Until you inevitably forget. Or someone looks after your dog, or you have guests over.

All training requires you to watch the dog... A scat mat? You got me there - but a scat mat is poor training. I would almost consider it management. I used something similar to a scat mat initially on our dalmatian and she just learnt to jump around it. Teaching the dog not to jump onto any bench, or any sofa is a much better way of training. How would you train it without an e-collar? Our dally is soft as :p I just have to say ah a few times and she'll never do anything again. She also generalises her training (sometimes a little too much) without me needing to. Teaching her not to jump on one bench will stop her from jumping on every bench in the house.

Are you sure the dog is actually performing for you for the treat?

All training requires you to watch the dog... A scat mat? You got me there - but a scat mat is poor training. I would almost consider it management. I used something similar to a scat mat initially on our dalmatian and she just learnt to jump around it. Teaching the dog not to jump onto any bench, or any sofa is a much better way of training.

All training requires you to watch the dog...

I'd strongly recommend against this trainer. He might be a great trainer, but he takes the easy/short way regardless of whether it is the best way.

If you don't believe there is any harm in using an ecollar and that it's more efficient and more effective, why would you ever bother with +R? Because I believe a combination of both is most effective. Plus +R is fun sometimes. Clicker training and shaping passes the time. I taught my dog to walk ladders with clicker training for fun, but my dog is never going to need to climb a ladder so I didn't put much effort into his ladder climbing reliability. EDIT: I also thought I should point out that I already wrote that in my previous post. <removed> Errr, your other post came after my question. But sure, I will make a better effort to read your mind in future :laugh: I'm not sure that you answered my question though, not that I had a problem with what you did write. For me I look at it like this: If the e-collar was cruel, I'd not use it under any circumstances. I don't consider it cruel at all so I'll use it under any circumstances I feel it suits regardless of whether something that is considered "less aversive" could also do the job. When assisting others with training, I won't recommend an e-collar first up as they are expensive. I'll focus on +R as it's cheap. I'm time poor and cash richer (but not rich, just more cash than time :p) so for my own dogs I'll usually do whatever I can to get the quickest results. There are some scenarios where +R might be quicker, or if I'm just out to train one of the dogs for mental stimulation I might go with the clicker just to teach them a trick. For something like a recall though, with my own dogs, I'll almost always use an e-collar. I'm helping someone right now and with the issue they're having an e-collar is perfect. I'd wack one on my dog and the problem would be gone in half an hour (fence fighting) plus some follow up training. Instead I am having to guide him through using +R techniques and mild punishment like water throwing (I hate throwing water as a punishment) and it's taking ages to fix. Granted this is over the internet as well since I don't have time to visit them IRL right now. ETA: Also, with the GSD in my DP I had to be very careful with the e-collar as a tight collar inflamed his allergies. He lived till 3 and a half before I was forced to euthanise and for the last year I couldn't put the e-collar on him for more than half an hour or so a day.

If you don't believe there is any harm in using an ecollar and that it's more efficient and more effective, why would you ever bother with +R? Because I believe a combination of both is most effective. Plus +R is fun sometimes. Clicker training and shaping passes the time. I taught my dog to walk ladders with clicker training for fun, but my dog is never going to need to climb a ladder so I didn't put much effort into his ladder climbing reliability. EDIT: I also thought I should point out that I already wrote that in my previous post. <removed>

If you "knew how to use them" you would understand that there are many different ways of using them than old fashioned positive punishment, "the dog has done wrong so shock it!" mentality, in fact I have never seen one used as a positive punishment. Most of the e collar training that I have seen is to train a dog to repeat a desirable behaviour, not to take an undesireable one and teach the dog not to repeat it. but as I said i have never seen one used as a positive punishment. Also, whilst on the subject of "pain and discomfort" do you not think that most training has a level of discomfort and possible pain (depending on the sensitivity of the animal?) Pain and discomfort can be far more than physical. Just putting an animal under pressure to learn a behaviour for a treat exerts a level of discomfort and yes "pain" albeit mental :) hence why IMO you need to have a strategy to relieve the pressure should you find the animal stuck. An e collar used correctly would exert no more measurable "pain or discomfort" than any other method, Have a look in to e collar trained dogs that have been trained correctly, an awfull lot of them don't look like they are suffering discomfort to me. In fact I have seen most dogs display a much higher avoidance behaviour to an e collar on vibrate(which is much like a mobile phone vibrating) than they do to a correctly set stim. Basically the wrong tool, applied to the wrong dog, in an incorrect manner, and the wrong situation will at best not work, and at worst damage the dogs long term development, alternatively the right tool, applied to the right animal, correctly, in the right situation willl work! The trick is to be open minded enough to know when the tools at your disposal, in this situation are the wrong ones, for the animal your dealing with and consequently the knowledge of what to do is outside of your current knowledge. (please note that this last sentence is not "aimed" at anyone in particular just a general belief that I hold IMO I don't understand why you'd use aversives for obedience/sports/everyday manners training though. These things are SO easy to train without any aversives, and the golden rule of dog training says to use the least aversive method possible. But of course now you will tell me that withholding the treat is equally aversive to a low level stim, so I might as well just use an e-collar. Well, I'd respond to that with a: why not? I can train household manners quicker with an e-collar than I could without one. I'm not worried my dog is harmed by it - because I don't believe he is. I really just use whatever method will give me the best result, the quickest. You have a golden rule saying to use the least aversive method possible but it certainly isn't an industry wide rule. And you can use positive reinforcements whilst using an e-collar for negative reinforcement or positive punishment anyway. I've personally found a combination of all methods get the best results. Why should I spend months perfecting the recall on a 2 year old Husky so that he'll recall under all circumstances, even when in full drive chasing a rabbit when I can do it in a mater of days or weeks with an e-collar? Since I don't believe the e-collar is harmful there is no reason not to.

I guess that depends upon how you define "hurt". Technically, they do work because they hurt. But hurting just means something is uncomfortable or causing injury. A head collar causes discomfort, so it hurts. I could go on, but it's not needed.

The Delta one looks to be rubbish but I haven't done it. I enjoyed the NDTF course, there were some good trainers and the people I were there with were great... but the management when I did it made me want to stab myself. It took over 18 months to get my certificate. Items of assessment were misplaced and I was constantly forwarding copies to them. In the end I cracked it and told them they had 3 options: refund the course costs, provide the certificate or I'll go to the small claims court and claim the full costs of the course plus all related expenses. In 2 weeks they found all of my assessment items. tldr version: You'll learn some things, might be worth the cost, but management will drive you insane.