Kavik

Vickie At the moment I am not using tug as a reward for anything as his response is not consistent enough yet - I can't be sure he will take the tug after an exercise, even at home. I normally reward exercises by either throwing a squeaky toy or food, depending on the exercise (throw toy for movement, food for stationary exercises). I am hoping to be able to get more consistency in his response for tugging before I use it as a reward in training. I will try to get OH to video it at home. Monelite Yep, looks like I haven't been able to generalise tugging to new environments. I'm not quite sure how to go about that now, or is it too late? Hard when he won't even look at it when we are out.

I am still working on trying to get Kaos to tug reliably so I can use it as a reward. He will tug at home in the front and back yard, but not when we are at the park, training or competition. Sometimes I can get a tug for a second or so when out, but not for very long, he will just stand there and look at me, or even away from me, and won't engage in a game. One suggestion I have gotten is to not bring his favourite squeaky toy at all, and only bring the tug. Maybe reward and leave it if he puts his mouth on a tug, and build it up from there? So then build duration and intensity? Sort of shape tugging? Any other ideas? One problem is certainly me - I get embarrassed and frustrated and feel really silly if I am there with a tug and he won't even look at it

There is some information on them here http://www.schutzhundaustralia.com/clubs.html

Kaos used to tangle up his harness when it was attached to the seatbelt and spook himself. So I crated him til he grew up a bit - much less stressful I found getting a separate attachment instead of the seatbelt (that still goes into seatbelt clip) better for Kaos as he then didn't have the stretch and give that the seatbelt had to tangle himself. And make it really short. He now rides calmly in the car in the harness

On the dog side of things, agree with this and also visit http://www.specialistcanines.com like suggested About training staff on what to so with troublemakers, bit of a plug, my father in law (documentary maker David Goldie, who has made docos like Nobody's Children and The Big House as well as Spirit 2000 ) has made a DVD called Surviving Crime which includes sections on what to do ina robbery, after effects of robbery as well as interviewing criminals so you can see their motivation etc. http://www.survivingcrime.com/index.php

I have found the KNPV line dutchies and malinois to be a lot more civil than there FCI line counterparts. It is impossible to get a Belgian Malinois or Dutch Shepherd with FCI pedigree papers which aren't fake. Can you elaborate on this please? nickojoy- why do you say: Just curious.. If you have a look on www.specialistcanines.com there is a lot of information on Dutch Shepherds including input from the two breeders of them in the country.

I'm still learning the art of course walking! So much more to learn

I would not change signals just for the instructor! I went to one obedience club that tried to tell me I was doing signals wrong, which I thought was odd because 1) all the other clubs I had been to did it the way I did and 2) even for competition it doesn't matter, as long as you are consistent you can use what you like! They told me I had the wrong type of lead, held it in the wrong hand, gave signals with the wrong hand etc. I didn't end up staying as they just would not understand that I had been taught to do it differently and would not change for them, and that there is no wrong or right with these things. I am currently teaching a foundation agility/basic agility class (not all the foundation I would like, but a start, we don't have all the foundation equipment yet at work). I am struggling with how much information to tell students about how some foundation behaviours are applied and useful later on without boring them or confusing them with too much detail and information that they don't understand.

As poodlefan said they are quite different. And I prefer working dogs to gundogs But it comes down to your expectations, the amount of work you are prepared to put in, and the type of temperament you like. A GSD shouldn't be bitey if you train it properly, just as a Golden may be mouthy if you don't train it properly. IMO Goldens should be a 'softer' temperament than a GSD. Both breeds should be good with kids if you train and supervise.

I don't think the average pet owner wants a dog that has a lot of drive and the potential to protect them. If they did they would already own a working line dog A lot of dogs (of all breeds) end up in the pound because their owners could not handle them - too much drive or exercise requirements, were too destructive or protective etc. Unsuitable dog for them.

Have you ever worked in the pet industry? Have you seen what the average pet owner is like? What they expect their dog to do, the amount of work they are prepared to put in? The problems they face and cannot deal with with even fairly low drive small companion breeds of dog? And compare that to the temperament of a dog that is supposed to be able to herd, do SchH, security, personal protection, scent detection? How do YOU think they would fare?

This is a good question and I am interested in the responses. I know a couple of people who do both as well. I am not sure how to approach it, especially when they are more experienced than me.

Yes it does. From the standard :D The German Shepherd Dog must be of well balanced temperament, steady of nerves, self assured, totally at ease (except when provoked) and good natured as well as attentive and easy to train. He must possess instinctive drive, resilience and self confidence in order to be suitable as a companion, watch dog, protection, service and herding dog. To be able to do many of these jobs a dog needs a higher level of "go" beyond that which you need or would desire for a companion animal. No that's incorrrect Kavik. The GSD is not intended to be a solo tasking dog. A "good" GSD can do it all, versatitly is the breeds forte I didn't say solo tasking dog. When I think of companion breed, I think of something like a Cocker Spaniel etc, something that most families can probably cope with. If you work in a field where you see a lot of pet dogs and their owners, and the level of training they want to do and what they want the dog to be able to do (go to park, play with other dogs, be friendly with all with not too much work on their part) and if you have any experience with dogs working in any field that GSD are supposed to do (herding, SchH, security, police, scent detection) you will know that a dog that is capable of work is too much for the average pet owner. They make fantastic companions for those that are aware of their needs, capabilities, drive and temperament and are willing to put the time in. But they are not or should not be a Golden Retriever Like ALL working breeds Same with my other breed, working Kelpies. I would say they are not a pet breed, for the average owner. But they make fantastic working/sporting/companion dogs if you understand their temperament and their needs and are willing to put the time in.

Here is one of the threads: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...ackyard+agility

If you do a search there was a topic on this not long ago where a lot of tips were given (also in a thread on agility you can do at home) I'll see if I can dig it out for you later

Yes it does. From the standard The German Shepherd Dog must be of well balanced temperament, steady of nerves, self assured, totally at ease (except when provoked) and good natured as well as attentive and easy to train. He must possess instinctive drive, resilience and self confidence in order to be suitable as a companion, watch dog, protection, service and herding dog. To be able to do many of these jobs a dog needs a higher level of "go" beyond that which you need or would desire for a companion animal.

No, and as I have said earlier, I don't know of too many breeders who think that is the case either. Certainly the ad in question does not suggest that these dogs are extreme in aggression, quite the opposite, just that they are not suitable for pet homes. Whilst aggression might have a part to play in this (if not competently handled), the bigger issue is that working line dogs necessarily have more drive than most pet homes can provide outlets for. The litter in question is a line-breeding on one of those classic working dogs you mentioned, and very closely related to your own pup. Passing a BH is no guarantee that anything that dog produces will fit in well in a pet home. Some have mentioned the breeder and litter in this debate, but personally, I don't know them or be inclined to critisize their dogs or practices as such, from my perspective I am looking at a general overview of advertising extreme aggression being the supposed ultimate of a working GSD breeding. As a man stopping yard dog I agree that extreme aggression and sharpness would make a fantastic yard worker, but IMHO, that's about where it ends. I don't believe that the GSD is the best breed for that purpose either, but that's another story. Offshoots in the ideal GSD temperament are plentiful from soft weakness to over aggression and everything in between with too many excuses and reasons why "balance" is missed. This breeding is only for pet homes and the other is only for working/security homes are not "balanced" GSD's as they should be, but extremes at each end. A "good" GSD regardless if the breed may be unsuitable for some people, should be able to do it all, and a companion animal is one of those roles. It doesn't and shouldn't mean that a dog capable of security/protection work can't be a pet. If can't be a loyal and trustworthy pet at least with it's primary handler, there is something far wrong with that breeding IMHO Extreme aggression is NOT being advertised here. If you have seen the soft temperaments of some show line dogs, you would understand that the ad is making sure people know this breeding is NOT like that. I agree that an ideal GSD litter would have some that are suited to companions, some sport and some security, if you go by the breed standard where the GSD is a jack of all trades. The reality is that this is not often the case. There are many who cater for the show/pet scene. This ad is catering for the security etc sector.

Von Forell is advertising a litter there too Also stating they breed for Schutzhund, law enforcement, police

I couldn't comment on Integraguard as I don't know them, from what I can tell they train in the KNPV style. I was commenting on the use of "aggression" in the ad, which you seem to agree is OK (based on the above critique). You might be interested to know that they have based their breeding on Yultzen and Von Forell dogs, similar to your latest pup (and very similar to my bitch), and that Fax also features in these lines. In fact, the litter in question is line-bred 4-4 on Fax! I am referring to the "aggression" concept in promotion of the working GSD as the dog's major essential trait. In other words, do we need to be breeding genetically extreme aggression to do the job???. Ok, extreme aggression........the dog lights up fast, bite's with a full hard grip and is sharp as a tack.........ok great, the dog will be a fine worker. On the flip side, the dog wants to bite everyone, threat or not, comes back up the leash at the handler on a regular basis, and in reactive aggression (defence/fight drive) the dog is foggy headed and the handler has little control. What real use is a dog like that seriously I ask???. The dog couldn't pass a Schutzhund BH as it's shapness and aggression cannot be tamed enough to get through a traffic test without a reaction...........a GSD that fails a BH in reference to a GSD breed quality test is not a good GSD, working dog or not. The classical working dog's I mentioned previously passed those tests.........are we saying those dog's were not aggressive enough or able to work effectively and needed to be more "extreme"???. The ad in question certainly does not state or suggest 'extreme aggression' Just that the dogs will be strong, confident, driven and better suited to working homes than as companions. I looked at the whole ad and not just the bit quoted at the beginning and it seems pretty well written to me.

My guys get towels until they have outgrown the destroying bed phase :D Going to test Kaos with a polar fleece blanket today - hopefully it stays in one piece!

To qualify what I wrote earlier. There is a difference in a dog gripping stock because the dog is stressed/unsure/excited/out of control (undesirable) and gripping stock because the stock challenged the dog and is refusing to move. Just as in Schutzhund you are penalised if the dog grips on the bark and hold, while you want them to grip if the decoy runs away or challenges the dog. The dog is expected to be able to use force when necessary, if being challenged.

Since it is mentioned as a positive (will bite if asked/to move difficult stock) I assume it is sometimes necessary and not always a bad thing

Whether the dog 'has bite' and how much bark and bite it has is also used when advertising working Kelpies (obviously referring to moving difficult stock).

A merging of dog dancing and Schutzhund perhaps A lovely and very interesting dog dancing routine. Would they be allowed to do it in VIC? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crmD_B8ERzk

Diesel does the Shepherd scream.