Willem

@ Starkehre: I just had a look at the ANKC Rules and Regulations for Herding Trials ...section 5 and 6. I'm pretty sure she would pass such a test (surely I can tick drop, sit, stand ...recall...and definitely 'sustained interest' in stock :D - I guess my problem would be to get her as a non-pedigree dog registered with the ANKC?...I read somewhere else that this would require to de-sex her as a non-pedigree dog (won't happen)?

nice pics ...it also needs to be considered that each sheep / head of cattle represents quite a value - it is a pretty expensive 'toy' for a dog, thus I assume every owner has a great interest that the dogs don't ruin / harm their stock. I paid 2 x AU$ 75 (2 days) for the workshop - if they would loose just one head it just wouldn't be viable to organize such workshops.

...'quite significant'?... the difference can be extrem! that refers to behaviour, needs, maturing, training, bonding, food requirements etc. etc...

I'm sure - at the end they all have to earn their crust and rely on their clients. I could have visited one of the 2 vets were I live, but was happy to drive 40 kms to Liz's clinic to get what I think is the best for the health of my dog. Dog owners will follow or are doing already the same, it is a no brainer, not only will it save money in the long run, but it will also reduce the negative side effects of vaccinations (which can be sometimes life threatening!) to a minimum. There is no need to vaccinate if the dog already has the wanted immunity! and the test allows to verify this for a reasonable price and requires only one blood sample.

@ skip: she is a border collie from herding lines, no pedigree; she looks exactly like the Allan Munns' BCs. Her herding drive is incredible: before and after the sessions, and when we had breaks and the dogs were allowed to run freely and chase each other, she always wanted to go back to the paddocks where the sheep were - and running / playing with other dogs was one of her favoured games (there is a thread on this forum about the challenge I had to get her focus when other dogs were around - that changed completely). @ Jules: giving every sheep a name would be quite a challenge with 15,000 head of sheep at the Arthursleigh Farm :) ; as it was my first herding workshop I can't compare, all I can say is that no sheep was mauled, I guess the occasional nipping attempts ended mostly with annoying wool in the dog's mouth (I have been nipped by my dog countless times when playing rough with her - I know the difference between nipping and biting) and the resources / sheep available allowed to share the stress. Trainer and organizers setup heaps of paddocks (big ones, small ones etc.) - I had the impression the whole workshop preparations were very good, with a very experienced trainer, and it balanced the welfare of dogs and sheep very well.

just show him this thread - it won't take long till no vet can afford to ignore the benefits of this change in vaccination regime... go with the flow or loose your clients...

just got the test results for our appointment this morning emailed (they send it also via post, so you have an official genuine document): 12th October 2016 Pet's Name: xxxx Pet's Microchip Number xxxxxxxx D.O.B 6th December 2014 Owner Details: Mr xxxxxxx To Whom It May Concern, I, Dr Elizabeth Chmurycz, Registered Veterinary Surgeon of NSW, Registration N5071, performed a ImmunoComb Canine VacciCheck on Xxxx on 12th October 2016. The VacciCheck Antibody test is designed to determine dog serum antibody titre to Infectious Canine Hepatitis, Canine Parvovirus and Canine Distemper Virus, and is a test recommended by the World Small Animal Veterinary Association, in their Vaccine Guidelines of 2010 and 2016. This test can be used to determine the IgG titre before and following vaccination or the duration of immunity. It is recommended to be done in puppies from 16 weeks of age, and in adult dogs. Xxxx's results are : Canine Hepatitis S4 Positive Canine Parvovirus >S6 High Positive Canine Distemper >S5 - High Positive Interpretation of results: S0 Negative, S< 1 - Negative, S2 - Inadequate Immunity Recommendation if S0, S<1 or S2 results vaccination is required. S3 and S4 Positive, >S5 High Positive S6 High Positive Recommendation if S3, S4, > S4, S5 or > S5 vaccination will be of no further benefit. Follow Up Titre Test is recommended in THREE years as per the 2016 WSAVA Vaccine guidelines. Any questions, do not hesitate to contact me on 02 42 845988. Please note, that there is no titre test available for Canine Respiratory disease (otherwise known as Canine Cough), with annual vaccinations required in dogs that require this protection. Yours Sincerely Dr Elizabeth (Liz) Chmurycz BVSc CMAVA N5071 Veterinarian Russell Vale Animal Clinic Note: these results have been achieved with only 2 shots! We got her with the first puppy shot while she was still with the breeder, the second shot was after approx. 24 weeks (so the window of susceptibility was likely totally closed). Every additional shot would have stressed her immune system unnecessarily, would have made the existing antibodies fight the vaccine and would have increased the risk of severe negative side effects significantly. I have no doubt that this will become the new standard - it is already very common in GB, and it might take a while till every vet here will offer it, but you just can't ignore the health benefits for the dogs. Cost have been AU$ 130, this included the VacciCheck and the yearly check. My plan is to do it on a yearly basis to monitor whether there are any changes over the time. Thanks to Dr Liz and her team! Eta:..spelling...

not sure what you mean with 'recreational herding' - the workshop I attended didn't differ between 'professional farm dogs' and companion dogs; the training for dogs and handler was all the same. There was of course a difference wrt the level of each dog, and the more advanced dogs (professional or companion dogs) were challenged with higher tasks.

as long as you provide a dry shelter where they can sleep and rest, and where they are protected from strong winds you can leave them outside the whole year. Our guinea pigs (boy group and a girl group, each group in a separate compound) have been born outside and lived all their live outside (they are all over 6 years old now).

Yes - and they shouldn't see/smell/hear the dog either. They might be physically safe but constantly stressed because a predator is stalking them (they don't know the dog can't get over the fence etc). it seems that they don't recognize a stalking dog as a predator - I think it is not in their genes. They are more sensitive to sudden shadows (associated with raptors); our dog can go nuts around them and they don't take any notice. ETA: that is one of the reasons why they are - IMO - not suitable to be used in herding training, e.g. like ducks. They also don't look for the 'safety in numbers' grouping like ducks, sheep etc. as a response to a stalking dog.

guinea pigs can be a fantastic mental stimuli for dogs - I'm pretty sure that without our guinea pigs our BC wouldn't be so settled and relaxed; her backyard, her guinea pigs...her job (well, the kids still have to feed them).

Mike Baird's announcement sounded like 'Forgive us for we don't know what we are doing'...hm, of course, everyone makes mistakes, but for most mortals making mistakes has some consequences, so why is he still in charge?

if I have one entire female, but don't breed, thus don't have / sell puppies: do I still have to register an animal business?...that would be outright ridiculous... Eta: and if I have an entire male dog I don't have to register an animal business????.... I could make money from selling the sperm ...?...

ours don't care at all when she is herding around their enclosures - guinea pigs have a very strange and unusual flight and defense behaviour (seems only to exist when 2 males fight each other).

did someone read Herding Dogs: Progressive Training from Vergil S. Holland? ...someone recommended it to me and it got very good reviews on Amazon.

you are very likely doomed - you can built a solid enclosure outside for the guinea pigs and use it as an entertainment center for the dogs. They will still love to watch them, it just needs to be strong enough so they can't break in. The guinea pigs won't be bothered to be watched all the time after a while.

all of this is normal puppy behaviour - I wouldn't use other puppies from other breeds as a benchmark. IMO you expect far too much from a just 15 week old dog. Focus on things like toilette training, socialisation and teaching him what the borders are instead of expecting to be obedient. Education is a constant and slow process, and it will be pretty much like this for the next 6 month. It is a puppy, everything is new and needs to be checked out. Relax, lead him with joy and confidence and you will learn with everyday and so will he.

you referring to the youtube link in my first post?...I found watching it somehow disturbing - the added information says 'This dog has no interest in sheep but loves balls checkout how her coach got her herding!' ...well, I can't see the dog herding...and I can't see that the sheep will ever respond to his body language. wrt our 'achievements' in the workshop: I'm pretty happy, first that she has this incredible drive / desire to work sheep so I could train her 24/7 days - she didn't want to drink, didn't want my treats, and when we had a break and let the dogs run freely she always wanted to go back to the paddocks :) . It took me a while till she responded again to the basic cues (stop, drop, recalls...) while with the sheep in the paddock, but we got there, even in her highest arousal state. It was also nice to watch how settled and relaxed she was yesterday and today after such an intense weekend...I guess we are both hooked now, so it won't be our last workshop :).

that's the advantage of the VacciCheck - it tests all the 3 core vaccines including the hepatitis in one go / one blood sample. I booked her in for tomorrow.

some light reading about herd behaviour https://dspace.library.colostate.edu/bitstream/handle/10217/4350/C108.pdf?sequence=1

more reading http://www.workingaussiesource.com/working-aussie-source-stockdog-library-the-difference-between-herding-and-obedience-training-by-tenley-dexter/ I thought I had a very obedient dog, I can recall her from chasing seagulls and running with other dogs, even if we pass a pasture with cattle on the other side of the fence her response to my cues is excellent. Hence my surprize when I have been the first time with her in a narrow paddock with sheep in this 'instable zone' - it was like back in the times when she was a puppy seeing another dog on the horizon, and all the other things and people around her suddenly didn't exist anymore. First I was somehow disappointed by this unusual lack of obedience, later I recognized that it was actually a good thing (for the normal obedience training I could get the girl out of the honkey tonk, but luckily I couldn't get the honkey tonk out of the girl :D ).

to see your dog for the first time behind sheep without a leash attached is a moment you will never forget - like keeping the balance on a bicycle for the first time, or keeping yourself floating in water without struggling for the first time...it is mind blowing. that's a nice one to watch: ...not sure what I admire more, his whistling skills or the dogs' skills to follow the cues :D

a few sheep might have some stress, but there is this saying: good sheep make good herding dogs, and good herding dogs make good sheep. To get there you have to put a little bit work into it. The Arthursleigh Farm has 15,000 head of sheep (the farms is just on the other side of the river that separates Tony's property from the farm), enough to spread the stress - it is different if a workshop can only provide e.g. 5 sheep and a whole bunch of herding dogs inclusive newbies have a go. That will not only cause unnecessary high stress for the 5 sheep, but will also compromise the quality of the workshop as the sheep will shut down and there won't be any real training possible. During the training sessions all the dogs got good runs to get rid of tensions and too much energy. Watching a bunch of Koolies, Kelpies and BCs storming freely over the wide land is priceless. I also believe (TBC) that this herding training - also if I can do it only a few times a year - will have a positive impact on the 'normal' obedience and agility training. You just see a side of your dog you can't see when performing the daily routines. We missed the last agility and obedience training sessions as she was on heat (she just made it for the herding workshop), it will be interesting to see how she will go after such an intense weekend.

I mentioned this already in another thread: one of the most amazing things I ever experienced with my dog was when I let her of the leash in the paddock with the sheep for the first time: she suddenly behaved like a trained herding dog and I could keep her quite easily from the sheep respectively from nipping - to see from one moment to the other this specific instinct working in the dog was a real eye opener. I had to ask Tony 3 times what he meant when he told me to let her go as I thought I understood him wrong and feared a bloodshed, but he knew exactly what he asked me to do.

...that makes an interesting point: your dog was exactly bred for this, so why wouldn't it be fair to allow such breeds to do what they are bred for a few times in the year, although they don't do it as a job all year? wrt aversives: we used pool noodles for teaching the dogs not to nip or launch uncontrolled attacks - for me this is the same level of aversives as using the leash to hold the dog back. We used of course also the leash, however, the utilisation of the leash is limited here as you have to let the dog go at a certain point, you just can't follow your dog fast enough. The pool noodle also becomes the visual sign to block the dog's path, change direction etc.... My brain is still going nuts to understand the difference between 'normal' training (obedience, agility) and herding and what's going on the dog's brain. The 'normal' training's task is to teach the dog how to control all the drives and instincts - the herding is about revealing and unleashing this specific instinct these herding breeds have been bred for (rules applied). That's a fascinating new world of training. The whole system, the whole training wouldn't work and wouldn't be possible without this one specific trait. You can do agility with e.g. a ridgeback, but you can't do herding with a ridgeback - it would be like trying to teach an emu to fly. The aversives are minimal compared to the rewards / positive reinforcements given to the dogs. Sometimes I use seagulls as 'life bait', allowing my dog ('take it') to chase them when we walk at the beach. The seagulls become a very high valued reward - as a result I can call my dog back from chasing them, because in her mindset she has now this reflex that if she is obedience she will get another go - she works for the reward. I assume the herding is something similar - there is no other reward (treat, praise, seagulls, whatsoever) that could compare with letting her follow their own instinct regarding sheep.