Akitagal

Thanx pgm for reply...sorry i am slow typer and not keeping up with pace of thread! I started this particular discussion as i am learning the therory behind dog training. I have trained dogs before and have been working with dogs and horses a long time but was struggling on matching actual training situations to the terms that were being used in training books and info. In particular neg reinforcement and positive punishment. I wanted to get it clear in my head as i think it will lead to a better understanding of what i am using when training and also as someone posted, more effective communications with other trainers.

Thanx Haven! Your post was funny as it was what you are "stroking your chin" about that got me to post in first place. I also have done some natural horsemanship and saw it as neg reinforcement but didnt know it was called that until i started reading up on all dog training info. I do have an open mind and get my advice from many sources but thought dol would be a good one for this type of question as i interested in all responses so i can then look and asses and question and decide. I like hearing all the differing views. But yes i try not to take all things as gospel and can see how easy it would be for someone who is just learning about all this to do so, so thankyou for the advice. Thankyou everyone for responding it has helped me hopefully clarify some of how the scientific explanations relate to actuall dog training situations. P.s Haven at some time i would be interested in hearing your thoughts on what you were thinking re: better when talking about humane/kind ways to train an animal.

Hahahahaha.(have a pic of my brain saying what the hell are you doing to me Akitagal!) Ok i think im getting this! Yes your right its decreasing a behavior also. Bugga. My brain will catch up im sure! Thanx for your time Amhailte it is much appreciated.

Hi pgm, i was just using as an example. Would you be happy to post how you use and thus how it is then negative reinforcement as opposed to positive punishment? As i said i am just learning about all of this. I can see how if you use the c.chain in different ways it may be considered then either neg reinforcement or positive punishment. If c.chain used to apply continual disscomfort until response of desired behavior made and then the discomfort removed then neg reinforcement. Dog is working to recieve release of discomfort. If used in a correction for not heeling positive punishment? Its then using the dogs desire to avoid the correction. Hopefully iv got that right!! So if im understanding this then head halters/gentle leaders work on negative reinforcement?? Ps Thanx for site Amhailte.

Thanx Amhailte, that makes perfect sense. Would you mind if i printed a copy of your post to stick in my notes? as you have written it wonderfully! Is there much negative reinforcement used in dog training? I know its used a lot in horse riding/training. Sorry lots of questions but i am really enjoying and excited about learning about all this.

There are types of punishment!! I havn't got that far so obviously much more to learn before maybe trying to fit it all together. Thankyou for your replies that has helped greatly.

I am reading up on dog training and am a little confused on this. Punishment is described as any event that follows a response and decreases its likelihood of occuring again. It includes when reinforcement or a positive state of affairs is removed. Negative Reinforcement is described as occuring when a response ends or removes an unpleasant event, it increases responding by ending discomfort. So when looking at the correction of a c.chain to teach heeling, is it seen as punishment or negative reinforcement? If its focus is to get the dog to walk beside you and the use of the c.chain increases that behavior would it be considered negative reinforcement? or is it that its decreasing the behavior of lagging or straying from your side, therefore being considered punishment? The c. chain is not unpleasent when its just being worn, its only unpleasent when its actually "snapped" or being utalised. So heeling doesnt remove discomfort. But after a correction or a "snap", if a dog becomes aprehensive of being corrected then the heeling removes aprehension therefore removing an unplaesant state? Or the dog heels to remove the discomfort of the corrections so therefore neg reinforcement? Is it both negative reinforcement and punishment?? Or has my brain now gone to mush from trying to figure it all out? Sorry if i have used any incorrect terms i am new to this so am just trying to find my way. Any help would be most welcome!

definatly interested for melb.

these workshops sound great. I would be interested when coming down to melbourne. Will it be posted on DOL when that is happening?

Steve i managed to get in to the site today and it looks great. Thanx for the description as well as it is very imformative.

This is interesting to hear. When they first came out, our clinic also had a client have a bad experience with them. Dog got really sick and then it also stained clients carpet! They are still on sale at our clinic and we havnt got any other bad reports but the first incident put me off trying them with my dogs.

I'v been grooming 15 years now. I am currently working only 4 days.I increase this to 5-6 at christmas. I do think i will continue and still would like to start my own buisness up. I like the flexability of it and yes i think the money is good but you do pay for it physically. I am about to do a dog training course and hope to incorperate that into things. I do do many other things and working as i do, it does allow me to pursue those. So i guess i would say i am happy grooming but also always look for opportunities to grow. I have thou been training in another unrelated area for about 3 years and if i can get my skill level up in this area i will be leaving grooming for a while to pursue this path but it is a very difficult area to get into so im just taking things as they come. And i would then retern to the grooming/training.

Hey Steve thankyou i tryed to go into that site i only get the intro page and no menu or options to go anywhere else so it unfortunatly doesnt tell me that much. Yes Nicole i get that excuse too, and yes i understand it may be harder to do things when you have had a baby but there is always options that mean this shouldnt be an issue. And wow you must of had a very full plate, baby, and 3poodles and a malt! I hope they wernt standards! I find that patience comes from knowing where the dog is coming from and not placing demands on yourself or dogs that are unattainable do you find this? I also guess enjoying what you do helps too. There is nothing better than helping to ease a dog in discomfort, be it physicall or mental. Which leads to another of my pet hates... Bosses that put demands on thier staff that are just plain impossible. I used to work in a salons that would book in 10+++ dogs a day(inc big groom outs,lamb trims ect) and found that i would just not have the time needed to do what i needed to and found that i would get stressed, frustrated and just plain exhusted. Ended up being a production line.Yuk! Never will i go back to that!

What is mdba? Sorry i dont know what that means. I specialize in dogs that have behaviour issues.(i work in vet clinic). I love working with these dogs. Most of the time its working out whats behind the "having a go at you". I would say with 98% of dogs it is a fear based reaction. So slowing down your movements. Praising calm and desired behaviour. Not reinforcing inappropriate behaviour. Patient persistance in a calm manner. I do use muzzles which can actually calm a dog and leave my fingers attached. Densensitization methods. Having appropriate vocal tone. These are just a few of the things i use. I think the most important thing and i think quiet often the hardest thing to do is to be very calm as if you become impatient or frustrated with a dog that is agitated it just adds to the dogs anxiety. They will pick up your body language very quickly. I always allocate triple the time for these dogs so i can work at a speed appropraite for the dog. Nicole i had to laugh as i also get clients that wash there dog before it comes in for a groom. Its such a sweet gesture. I guess its like when you brush your teeth before the dentist .

Dogs that get "happy" on my arm whilst im trying to clip ect, and entire males who want to mark everything insight including any dog or human that walks past! I have had also a horror story of having to clip a dog off only to discover a wound on its tail under the matting that was infested with maggots and on top of that had worms crawling out the bottom. I felt so very sorry for the discomfort this dog must of been in. The smell was so bad we had groomers have to leave the room, two throw up, whilst i and another girl continued to clip off whilst gloved and masked and trying to hold our breath!

Have you looked at box hill tafe? They have just started a fairly in depth course that is hands on and also organizes workplace placements. It is also a good idea to see if you can maybe do a work experience type thing with somewhere reputable to see if this is really an area you want to get into. I have been grooming for 15 years and it does really take its toll physically. I also like nicole have to desensatize alot of dogs from bad grooming experiences and so you need to learn alot of handleing skills. If you would like some names of places you could do some voluteering or work experience then pm me and i may be able to help.

Hey dreman. Have you read dr billinghursts books. Just wanted to double cheak that you are including other stuff like vege pulp, overripe fruit ect... its important to not just feed a meat based diet with this it needs to be in balance.