Denis Carthy

Something I forgot – there is a new type transmitter holder collar I have been trying since before Xmas. Its always been a problem keeping the contact points in a snug fit OR knowing they are snug, I have working strain Dobes which means a slim neck on a very smooth haired dog and keeping the normal e-collar strap in a snug fit whilst the dog is running round etc ha always been a bit of a problem, even if its only that you are never certain The new Bumper Boy ‘stretch strap’ solves all those problems – it has an elastic strip between the end of the collar and the buckle – they come with their own e-collar instructions which says pull the elastic tight and then fit – if you get one to try ignore their instructions, their own e-receiver has a bridge and the instructions are for that transmitter not the normal ones we use – I really recommend anyone to try this boon collar it stops all slipping and sliding and keeps the contact points snug to the neck al the time, a great product long overdue, especially with short hair dogs. http://www.bumperboy.com/stretch_strap.php

He uses the clicker facility on the Innotek quite a lot with a negative reinforcer - I think its always good to see how another trainer works if they have developed something of their own (I am NOT saying he has), it's the same as all training, someone might have just one little technique that they have worked out themselves and once its been seen or understood it might ad just one little thing to ones own repertoir (or not) - I have not been to a seminar here (UK), I know he held one (which someone linked) I am not sure it was ever repeated.

Hi Guys He is one of the top Euro ring sport trainers, his seminars are good for you in Oz as he is Innoteks European trainer and rep and thats your collar there as I understand it - here in UK there are lots to chose from but I importTri Tronics and they don't in market in Europe - yes his seminars are good and as Innotek is your main collar there you should all get something from his seminar. Regards Denis Carthy London UK

Aimhalt On that note, has anyone seen this photo before (page 9)? http://www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/pdf/...hockcollars.pdf Denis Carthy Sorry Aimhalt, I only just looked in and saw this - yes I know the photograph, the case and I have spoken to the vet concerned - My apologies it's late here in UK so I'll come back on it tommorow, in short that case/photo proves beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever that e-collars are the safest training aid of all time. CU later.

Jesomil Is it possible to try and get it changed? Denis Hi, maybe a start would be to get a lawyer to look at the wording of the law and check for its actual legality and also if there are any grey areas where you test the law. I am in UK by the way so I can only think in terms of some of our past flawed legislations.

Couldn't agree more, the most common example are things such as agility and obedience competions. To the untrained eye the dogs look as if they would do anything at anytime no matter what the 'non-competition' environment happens to have as stimulants. Drop the same dog and handler in a strange place with plenty multi stimulus distractions, then see what happens.

Labluv Denis, I cannot seem to access your other articles, or the articles on the dogstuff site. Could you provide the relevant link? Hi Labluv, thanks for the remark, did you mean articles on the same site? if so there are non, I was not happy them about putting it on without me doing some corrections so I never put anything else on, sorry.

Hi Jesomil I did an artical a couple of years ago defineing drives from instinct, it's at the link below, BUT, I want to point out, there are a couple of tech errors in it, the site owners put it online before it was sent back to me for revision and it was left as it still appears. http://www.dogstuff.info/understanding_drives_denis.html

lab and poodle To the moderator: I have no desire to be on this list, it disgusts me. Denis But yet you state you read, then quote, implying you are influenced by, a man whose practices probably killed an unknown number of dogs, to cover up his inabilities as a trainer to perpetuate his own income, and that influence on you does not disgust you? If your passing on John Fishers policy of kill the dog but get the money to pet owers then it's heaven help pet dogs and their owners who pass your way. Scroll to the pet dog owner. Mad Max Lady Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:13 pm http://www.dogchat.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic....858740a16da47fe

Sidoney Subjectively, having tried various ecollar levels on myself, the lower levels are more akin to some kind of stimulation and not painful until much higher, with quite a gradient in between. Denis Hi It is not the 'intenstity', there are two parts - 'intensity + accumulation'. start scratching your arm at a point where it is uncomfortable but not overwhelming and see how long it takes befor the sensation accumulates to a point you want to sop it - like standing still in full sun untill you get to uncomfortable = intensity + accumulation .

Labpoodle Last I heard it was the other way around.(80/90% success rate, Dr John Fisher mentioned in his book Dogwise). Denis He died some years ago, there were reliability problems with static anti barks going back many years, only the Tri Tronics Barklimiter was reliable but we are not talking about obsolete studies or the collars to which they refer ( and you have failed to name one single make or model of anti-bark ). By around 2000 all the reputable statics had dramatically improved, these days there are very few unreliable anti-bark collars. I always recommend the Petsafe De Lux here in UK, it has a sound censor and a vibration censor, unless both activate it cannot go off. As far as any of these go they are judged on if the benefits out weight any disadvantages. They are not judged on whether one or 51 anti bark went of accidentally making the dog jump and slightly slowing down the learning process out of the last 5 million sold and successfully used. They are judged on whether or not they saved a fraction under 5 million dogs from rescue and eventual PTS (no one in cities or urban environment scan keep a nuisance barker ) or the other alternative the larynx severing op, compared to 51 that jumped slight when a collar went off accidentally. As regards your source, John Fisher, he knew nothing at all about any modern collars. He was the founding member of APDT UK (Association of Pet Dog Trainers) all members had to agree not use e-collars AND not to learn anything at all about e-collar technological development after 1993, that was just one year after Tri Tronics changed to the, then, new digital technology, (after 24 years of analogue technogy), and the advantages and welfare benefits it might bring in the years after. Anyone who's attitude is/was "I deny myself the abilty to learn about all futour technological developement in this feild and its benfits and shortfalls" is clearly nothing but someone who has nothing new and advantageus to offer the dog training world, a time warp mind or a warped mind? My own approach in 1993 was that I felt they had no advantages to training, there were better training aids to fit into methods, they were also quite harsh and unnecessary and they were unreliable anyway, however, I never ruled out the unknown, un invented, possibilities which in 1993 lay several years ahead. John Fisher could offer no information on modern e-collars at all, I suspect what he refers to in the book you quote are the Cornell Uni studies of around 1995, those studies are invalid as they are [a] Long since obsolete, so is the equipment they exclude the make and model of any collars, maybe you should try one of K9's courses or seminars and come back with some up to date info for readers who are not yet familiar with e-collars, all you can mange, based on your Fisher quotes, is like getting flying instructions from the Wright bro's and then go for a spin in a 747. There is also the question of John Fishers sanity or alternatively his rip off business practices and the practices of his APDT UK contempory counterparts, see link below and be carefull, irational insanity can be infectious. Was APDT UK founder insane. http://www.freewebs.com/deniscarthy/wasapd...nderamadman.htm

lab and poodle I have a further question from K9force. How is it that the level from an "e" collar is regarded as a stimulation? | Is it to do with the drive model of a dog's behaviour, or is it in comparison with a TENS machine in physio? Denis I understand the drives butI don’t know what you mean by drive model canyou explain it please? Same again with drive model, are tense machines designed for attracting attention off an area of natural pain in order to distract the user from the natural pain/ whats their purpose if not that?

Snobbybobby Just to add I have tried the anti barking collar on my neck - the output of that is aprox 50 times stonger than the ecollar. Denis Ohhhh dear snobbybobby – I have only just reached that post, now I understand – well each unto their own as they say, one of our kennel Club members, Phil Buckley seems to have your ‘inclinations’ – read the link below for non-dog owning Glaswegians viewpoints of your…’activities with dog equipment'. http://www.ukchatterbox.co.uk/msg/538351

Snobbybobby The electric shock is via the neck of the animal and would be equal to the same sensation should a human apply the shock collar to his/her own neck and not a wrist as some would want.- Just my humble question Denis It’s humble, as you put it, in two ways, one it is not a question it is a statement of fact and two it is wholly incorrect. The text paper info below gives a simple, easy to understand what they are and what technology is involved, not as simple or as “humble” as yours, nevertheless accurate, it includes a link to the case of Innotek Vs RSPCA Australia, the RSPCA had to pay $100,000 liable to Innotek (scrounged from the public), Innotek had to pay them $30,000 because they called RSPCA liars, which is what liable is. Lab poodle I would disagree on the wording (stimulation instead of shock), Denis I am not surprised you disagree with the facts, anyone infuenced by someone who stopped learning about e-collars in 1993, barked in dogs faces and stratched his head in disbelief when they went to bite, then spoke the magic words "Kill it, thats £100 please" would find themseleves in the position of prefering the extreme absurd to reallity. You cannot disagree unless you disagree with the entire global medical proffesion and the scientists behind the manufacturers of hundreds of items which are incapable of giveing an 'electric shock' but are electro pulse muscle stimulator items. In fact you have no knowledge of e-collars or the training methods so you simply prefere to use words as a replacement for your lack of knowledge and experience in an attempt to influence the thoughts of those with the mental incapacity not see through that, people with that mental capacity probably should not have dog, they would be better with a goldfish. I cannot imagine what kind of excuses you have for failing to keep uptodate with the advantages that modern technology ( e-collars ) has brought to millions of dogs worldwide and has given them a quality of life in a stress free (beyond the normal stress of all learning) training method(s), the old methods of training you use have travelled to you from the Upper Plaisteothene, you probably refuse to move forward because the old methods you probably use are a place of safety for you, hence reading Fisher and it seems he was barking mad. Electro Pulse Muscle Stimulation Technology, Contextual Perspective. Although this paper is dedicated to remote electro pulse muscle stimulation dog training collars I feel it is appropriate to clarify the context and extent of the technological development of electro pulse muscle stimulation technology, its prolific global use in extensive areas of application such as wound healing in all land mammals, beauty cosmetics, massage, toys, electro pulse meditation aids, deep brain implants for such things as Parkinsons and Seratonin stimulation and not least the pharmaceutical applications replacing traditional pills and potions by a one off payment for an electro muscle stimulation device, designed for the specific purpose. Suppression and sabotage of information about the later was highlighted when pharmaceutical giant Johnson & Johnson was ordered to pay $115,000 liable in its attempts to malign a pharmaceutical use electro pulse muscle stimulation device. The same happened with e-collars in Australia, the RSPCA (Aus) had collected vast sums of money over a 5 year period in its campaign to ban e-collars, it then made a legal liable error and was sued by Innotek, it was ordered to pay $100,000 liable and Innotek was ordered to pay RSPCA $30,000 liable because it called the RSPCA liars. Innotek Vs RSPCA (Aus) http://judgments.fedcourt.gov.au/2002/J020860.yes.htm In simple lay terms this is how electro muscle stimulation appliances work; Of the various devices deliberately designed to cause a sensation a specific number of electrical wave pulses pass between the contact points bouncing off the surface of the skin, say for instance 1000 waves per second. It is the number of bounces on the skin surface per sec which is usually known as the intensity. Originally electro pulse muscle stimulation was painful, however, this problem was resolved in 1892 by French physiologist Jacques d'Arsonval's who found that increasing the frequency of the pulse controlled the pulse to levels giving discomfort in varying degrees as opposed to the sudden onset of pain as we normally understand it. If the speed of the waves bouncing along the skin surface was slowed down to 500 bounces per sec the sensation would decrease, speed up to 2000 waves and the sensation would increase in intensity. If an electro muscle stim device is activated at 500 pulse bounces per sec and the individual feels an irritating but not overwhelming sensation the individual is aware of it but pays little attention to it, if the pulse is left on it accumulates in irritant degree as the seconds pass by, itching is a common phenomena which works by accumulation, cold is another, bad smells etc they accumulate in degree as time passes. In the case of e-training collars, if 1000 bounces per sec reached an accumulated point of discomfort whereby it distracted someone from doing something after 6 sec and the discomfort ceased at the point the behaviour changed then the cessation of the behavioural action would reinforce or reward the pleasant relief behaviour and strengthen it, increasing the behaviour which removed the discomfort. A human example is the frequent movement of removing the discomfort we feel if we sit or stand in the one position to long, we positively reinforce the behaviour of maintaining an acceptable level of comfort, the biological purpose is to prolong the health of limbs and joints. Negative reinforcers catalysing a positive reinforcer are one of the most common operant parts in early human learning, EG, if you go to a restaurant, order a meal you have never tried before and then dont like it, the discomfort experienced by the unpleasant taste is removed by leaving the eal and maybe washing the uncomfortable/unpleasant taste away with water, this decreases the behaviour of eating that food? again positively reinforcing the behaviour of not eating that food anymore. Reward is a function of behaviour which the individual animal learns produces any consequence favourable/appetitive to that individual, punishment is a function of behaviour which any individual animal learns is unfavourable/non appetitive to that individual. Even with an intellect a billion, billion universes beyond that of a dog humans learn and benefit by sensation very early on. A baby cries with hunger pains, its mother comes and stops the pain by feeding it, intensity + duration = accumulating degrees of sensation = babies crying = avoidence behaviour, advantageous to the animal and its well being - we learn not to hold our hands to close the fire for to long to avoid burning, intensity + duration = accumulating degrees of sensation = avoidance learning through pain, advantageous to the animal and its well being - we learn not to wait to long after the hunger pain sensation starts and eat to avoid the unpleasant sensation, or if we cannot eat food as soon as we start feeling hunger pains then we remove the hunger pains by eating, we turn the hunger pain off, avoidence behaviour, advantageous to the animal and its well being - dogs learn to avoid the unpleasant sensation of direct sun and keep to the shade after a short exposure to direct sun, they turn it off to avoid dehydration and possibly other things beyond my understanding, intensity + duration, positively reinforcing low degrees of activity and reducing risks of overheating in those conditions - avoidance learning through pain, advantageous to the animal and its well being, most dogs are more active on cold days, the increase in activity avoids the pain of feeling cold hypothermia related conditions, avoidance, resulting in maintainence of healthy joints, muscles, blood flow correct body temprature condusive the he animals health and well being -avoidance learning through pain, advantageous to the animal and its well being and hundreds of thousands of etc examples in an animals lifetime. As I have stated the working functionality of a modern e - training collar is based on the accumulation of a static electro pulse stimulus sensation which is not dependant on one element making up the sensation i.e. intensity it is based on two elements, intensity + accumulation in time. If you start to scratch your arm at a level which is uncomfortable but not an immediate overwhelming intensity and continue at that level you will soon find it becomes uncomfortable to a point that you discontinue the behaviour = discomfort + length of time = change in behaviour, i.e stopped the action of scratching. The main reasons e-collars remained behind other developed uses of variable level static stimulation instruments was its use on a moving object, very often under adverse environmental conditions, at long range and with the ability to be perpetually adjusted to the sensory widening and narrowing which occurs with drive activity levels. If analogue technology was still in existence e-collars would have remained as limited use collars. Modern good quality e-collars are the most advanced form of non-satalite, terrestriastal telemetry there is, outside military use. On Channel 4 London region w/e July 7th 2004 an hour long late night program was dedicated to variable level static stimulation erotic M/F sex toys with optional combined vibration. The static sensation is exactly the same as e-collars, needless to say, the body areas had different biological purposes and responded to the sensation appropriately. The fact that static electro pulse muscle stimulation is a sensation and the actual idea that in such a technologically advanced society we have not technologically progressed beyond being able to use electrical sensation beyond an elementary, electric fault electric shock is absurd. Such claims from groups or individuals are untrue and should either be dismissed or put in the context of such extremist groups who opposed Darwin or those who wanted to ban photography because ?Only God can make man in his own image?, those were the extremists of that period, e-collars also attract extremists non of whom have any idea as regards what they are or how they are used, the UK Kennel Club is one and radical extremist organisation calling itself APDT another In the 40,000 - 140,000 years or so of the existence of some species dog/wolf co-existing with man there has always been one persistent problem, distance control and training. More dogs have suffered abuse, euthenasia due to frustration or revolving door rescues because of this than any other single reason, dogs with persistent problems are only securely rehomed on rare occasions. In the UK the e-training collar is giving dogs more freedom and stress free relationships since around 2002/3 when pet owners started to reject the commercial exploitation they had been subjected to in recent years than at any time in the history of the species. E-collars are the easiest to use addition to training aids of every kind and dogs which have had no reliable recall for years can be transformed within one training session by the owner resolving the welfare and problem behaviour caused by the commercial product ?positive training? an appalling rip off in which dogs are subject to horrendous punishments every day and the na?ve, new to dogs, owner indoctrinated that they are rewarding the dog, the opposite is true. The modern, post 1998, static electro pulse muscle stimulation e-training collar has taken the dog out of the Neanderthal dark ages of needing to be on the lead because it is out of control and given it the freedom within safety which is a requirement of the species if it is to live a quality life with stress free owners in a lifelong relationship which comes about by owning a well behaved dog. The only suffering caused by e-training collars is to those who have commercially exploited pet owners in recent years by convincing them their dog has some kind of quasi medical condition which needs a lifetime of expensive ?behavioural treatment?, when it refuses recall, raids picnics, runs at strange children barking at them or general, normal, uncontrolled, disruptive canine behaviour. Below are some examples of electro pulse muscle stimulation products designed for various purposes and which terrify both extremists and the insane.. http://www.kiiko.com/pachi.html http://www.superfoots.com/whiselmust.html http://www.gadgetsuk.com/Electric-shock-pen-p-16649.html http://www.vard.org/jour/05/42/2/walter.html http://www.stockroom.com/c003.htm http://www.isrvma.org/article/57_1_7.htm http://www.zencudo.co.uk/search.phtml?q=el...ock&stype=1 http://www.bodyclock.net/acatalog/electroacupuncture.html www.tritronics.com http://www.odu.edu/engr/bioelectrics/biogateway.htm http://www.medicaledu.com/estim.htm http://www.medicaledu.com/estim.htm http://www.medicaltoys.com/electric.htm http://www.ams.ac.ir/AIM/0031/bouzarj0031.html http://www.bodyshapers.com/htm/modelsp.htm#BUST%20SHAPER http://www.sexelectric.com/fom/home/home.html http://www.cerebrex.com/Merchant2/merchant...ategory_Code=CM http://www.bodyclock.net/acatalog/electroacupuncture.html www.dogtra.com http://www.parkinsonindia.org/deep_brain_stimulation.htm http://www.sexshop365.co.uk/catalog/default.php?cPath=65_192 http://electrosex.nl/index.php?cPath=70 http://www.bodyshapers.com/htm/modelsp.htm#VISAGE%20FACIAL http://www.woundcare.org/newsvol1n3/ar10.htm http://feswww.fes.cwru.edu/

Erny I have been told that e-collars have come along way, but didn't fully realise how much they have evolved. Thanks for clearing that up. Denis Hi Erny - yes they were allways considered dangerous, but in the very specific confines of their use and as an outright last resort they had a place, thought I'd clear it up a bit.

Snobbybobby A Dog receiving an electric shock or a noxious smell??? The electric shock is via the neck of the animal and would be equal to the same sensation should a human apply the shock collar to his/her own neck and not a wrist as some would want. Just my humble question Denis, To answer your very humble question, which is in fact a statement Here in Europe Electric Shock Collars have been banned from retail sale for at least a decade and they were only special purpose when they were on sale, they were almost entireley confined to the Dutch and Belgium KNPV police dogs and other service dogs prior to the collapse of communism. You have no electric shock collars on sale in Au and its unlikyyou ever had. Below is what you are referring to, I am posting it so you no longer need to post ‘humble’ posts and attempt spread your own ignorance like a disease History & Evolution of The Modern E-Collar. Chapter 1. In The Begining. The Electric Shock Collar. Germany-UK 1950?s - late 1980?s. There has been e-collars of one sort or another in the UK in civilian hands since around the 1950?s, these were usually brought over from Germany by service personnel and either sold on or loaned by them. A firm called Karenswood, I think from Solihull, used to get them to order or hire. Specific use Electric Shock Collars were very rare, the ones in civilian use were originated by a German Vet as a safety device to be used with his own hunting dogs instead of falt buckle and other collars, know to be highly damageing to the neck vertrate and other skeletal structures. The only collars I knew of in the UK between 1976 and around the late 80?s were electric shock collars, long since obsolete. I was told in 1976, when I first used one, that electric shock collars first came into use in WW2 and were of German origin, I have no reason to doubt this and some German contacts confirm some sort of electric shock collar was known to be in military use in Germany at that time. The difference between an electric shock collar and modern remote trainers was the fact that the e-shock collar had two contact points which contacted either side of the neck, 2 or 3 inches below the ears. Once fired the shock went into the neck and met the electric shock from the other contact point on the other side of the neck. The e-shock collar I used in 1976 and once in the late eighties with someone else?s dog was German in origin, it was not remote and was an electric shock collar. They had one very high level and could not be adjusted to the individual dog. They were only used in extreme circumstances or the ?out? in protection work. They were never designed or intended for ordinary pet use and were not a training collar. They were designed solely for high drive working line dogs and were sometimes used in conjunction with a method and other aids with some pet dogs which had aggression or sheep chasing problems and were in a life, death or rescue situation. Electric shock collars were rare in the UK, everyone I know who were training in either protection sports or training the protection dogs of that point in time as well as many show dog people had heard of ?electric shock collars? but few people had ever seen them and fewer still had ever used them. If I had not rescued a dog from Battersea dogs home I would probably never have seen them, even so a lot of myths about them and their use abounded in those days. There was a more recent electric shock collar which was also made in Germany, possibly by the same manufacturer. It had the same electrodes at the side of the neck and the electric shock also went into the neck from either side, the electric shocks from each contact point met in body as before. They had low, medium and high levels and were remote. These were in use in Europe until the late nineties but no one I have ever spoken to heard of any of them being used here in UK, I saw one in Germany and they seemed to be used pretty much like the old shock collars, as a positive punisher only. It has been illegal to sell these collars for many years, they did not pass the European CE safety standard and were dangerous to humans. The use of these collars fits the description of use given out by KC, APDT, APDT and a few other commercial competitors. The term electric shock is a recognised scientific term, static electro muscle stimulation collars are incapable of delivering an electric shock, anyone using electric shock as their terminology when referring to electro pulse collars would be misleading others. GP's and the NHS recognises the Blacks medical dictionary as one authority. Ch 1 updated 2006.-Remote Electronic Training Collars. Fifty years of UK history, from electric shock to a sensation Second Edition, E-Collars, Historical Clarification, from electric shock to a sensation, 1950s ? 2006.

Snobbybobby At least in Vic. we haven't got a commercial barrow to push! Denis I am in UK and I dont sell e-collars so have no 'commercial barrow to push', I do have a training background. I have never met Steve or any other e-collar users here, I don't need to meet any of them I know a competant trainer when when I read them. Steve knows as much about training techniques as he will ever need to know and in keeping with the ethic, 'The dogs best interests is the deciding factor in training', including matching a training technique to vast ariations of owner and dog combination (the only in field application that can possibly work). With Steves knowledge and background it's it is obvious he is useing the best of all know techniques, also, your knowledge of the commercial potential of training people with a e-collar is very limited indeed, there is no money in training people with an e-collar compared to other methods, it is the most consistant and reliable training aid there and can adjust almost any situation which happens at any given time. Of course if you wish to explain how the vary the 'intensity' of the reward value of treat with the fluctuations of drive, the only way any stimulus can work, I would be gald to here it. Denis Carthy London UK http://www.freewebs.com/moneybeware/

Sunny 70 I couldn't think of any other way to train her not to bark when unsupervised, Denis Yes there is Sunny 70, you could have the dogs larynx severed in the de-barking operation, that is the only know option which works, here in UK we have many extremists and their organisations who want that option used. Denis Carthy London UK. www.freewebs.com/deniscarthy

Australdi- Having had experience of a council issued citronella collar...and seeing it resultant malfunction....I'm personally opposed to e-collars! Denis Carthy Hi, Have you noticed this topic has nothing to do with spray collars, such off topic replies usually occur when people know nothing about statics and want to say something of no meaning, fine by me but it's a bit strange to post and imply "I know nothing about e-collars" so lets change subjects. Can you explain to me why your statement above has no rational base? Anyway, as you have mentioned it, spray collars have not sold well for a couple of years, its rubbish, cheap technology (as you say), citronella causes serious health problems and spray collars hardly sell here in UK anymore. Few retailers even bother stocking them and they have such a bad reputation they have been reduced in retail price an average of 50% within this past 12 months, in US they forgotten they ever existed almost, below are the material data sheets to the citronella you sprayed into your dogs face, I am surprised you did not take care to understand the dangers before you risked one. Australdi- I instituted a regime of positive training Denis I am sorry but "positive training" is a commercial product not a method of training, the word “positive’ is used as an operant stimulus word used for commercial purposes and designed to ‘attract’ a potential buyer of the product (pet owner). My guess you did a negative punishment based method but you are reluctant to state that. Australdi- in my own humble experience...they are a poor & lazy substitute for "real" training! Denis Yes I agree, based on what I have read in your post you know very little of training, that’s is especially clear in your misuse of the term “positive training” when you must have used a “punishment” based method, at least we are in agreement Australdi-Your experience is very limited, or as you prefer to call it “Humble”. Snobybobby I was told once by someone who had a vested interest in e-collars that Citronella collars were poisonous??? Denis It's a pity Australdi did not contact you before he used equipement only the naive and innocent would risk. Below are the dangers you exposed your dog too Australd and Snobbybobby meant as poisons. Because you neglected finding out about training equipment, it would be a good keep a check on its eyesight from now, you never know what you have done. Material Safety Data Sheets Citronella http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/msds/md100301.html http://libertynatural.com/msd/355.htm http://www.naturecraft.net/naturecraft/data/038.htm http://msds.farnam.com/msds/m001167.htm http://www.cepis.ops-oms.org/bvsapud/i/ful...ol/geraniol.htm http://libertynatural.com/msd/22.htm http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-b...&id=6010019 http://msds.farnam.com/msds/m000773.htm http://www.cepis.ops-oms.org/bvsapud/i/ful...citronellal.htm

I am sorry folks, I have only just returned and noticed my post as had some replies. I will answer points as soon as I have time enough to read all this. Denis Carthy London UK.

Hi Steve real nice to see you again on this great site..I'm glad to see these bits abd peices of laws are not really bad over there, I thought they were not banned glad to hear it. I would not like to interpret some of them though. I notice Innotek, which I think you use quite a bit there?? have a new range out I'd like any feedback on it you can give. Is Innotek the most popular collar there? Seems a while since I posted here and technology has gone so much further in such a short time, I saw the new Innoteks on a couple of US sites but they are not seen much here. Thanks for letting me put the links Steve, caused quite a bit of bleating from our cranks & extremists, I was told to edit my refs, sure thats just me . Sorry to hear about Steve Erwine, it's just coming through our news, popular guy here really new his stuff. Anyway thanks so much for clearing your situation up for us, they kicked the extremists to the kerb here and there are no laws on them. Regards Denis Carthy. London

Seems a bit vague - we have no laws on them and no laws will be unless they show sound scientific evidence which the extremists were told to produce about 3 years ago. Our gov has tendered out for scientific evaluation of all known papers on them but they have to have names of collars, years of manufacture, they would only be valid if used correctly. The extremists are AR activists now we have ample evidence that they they are persuing the route to eliminate domestic dogs from public ownership. In the training area any lively dog is to much of a nightmare to own because of training flaws and record numbers are ending up in rescues and last year in at least 105,000 were PTS after getting lost and owner was untraceable, obviously dogs which have no recall should allways be considered as being in a life threatening situation. I recently trained one dogs owners who were going to have to PTS the dog and on 3 of four sites the owner posted the dog would have ended up euthenased if they had their way, I know the name of one, Christine Brierley, but also it seems to have been going on sometime. The link below is to one of what will become a network of reference sites where even the APDT UK founder shows signs of mental problems or deliberate attempts to persuade owners to kill their dogs, thanks to the pet owners I trained we now have ample evidence that it is seriouse problem. Any further information on your states position is welcome, thanks again. APDT UK, killing pet owners dogs links: http://z9.invisionfree.com/Dog_History_UK/...?act=SC&c=1 http://www.free4um.com/dogcasesuk/viewforum.php?f=2 http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=39874 History of E- Collars UK-USA www.freewebs.com/deniscarthy

Myszka Whats the situation where you are? Thanks

Erny (ii) acting on the instructions of a veterinary practiitioner; or Denis Hi Erny, thanks for that-can I ask, in practice does the above line mean you get a prescription from the vet, who then gives a couple of simple instructions and off you go with the e-collar? Thanks.

For Steve & E Collar users. Hi Steve and e-collars users. Can you please answer an online question as regards the Aus laws and E-Collars. I am involved in a post on a UK site, one of our crank, radical canine extremists who has never seen an e-collar, knows nothing about e-collars and is telling us all about e-collars etc is claiming the they are banned in Australia. Can some of you users please tell me what the laws are in various states there so I can refer to your answerers, my question includes anti barks. Thanks all. Denis Carthy London UK.