Denis Carthy

Yo! http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NZshwwkU5n8&...feature=related

E-Collar Advanced Training - The Lost/Out Of Sight Dog Recovery Exercise Two videos 1 Introduction Narrative 2. Lost/Out Of Sight Recovery Of Dog. As the digital technological development of e-collars advances along with all other digital advances a 100,000 years of a major global problem has been solved, a lost/out of sight dog recovery training exercise, at this point in time only some of the Tri Tronics transmitters are capable of this, the beeper used has an audio range to humans of 1/4 mile, with a GPS system the range can be extended to a max of 2 miles. There are two training methods possible but one essential must be trained no matter which of the two methods are chosen. The dog must be trained to go down to a stim tap, without any other signal from the handler, for those who do not know e-collars a tap is the equivalent of a finger prod. Method 1 is to train the dog to down to the TT beeper - Method 2, which I use, is to train the dog to recall to the beeper, if the beeper signal locates the dog as going away or in another direction two options are open, try a whistle recall for the dog to locate you, if the beeper does not change direction towards the handler signal the dog to go down to a stim prod and go and collect him/her. With a GPS system the range for recovery can be up to 2 miles, if using that system either a collar tone or the beeper can be used for the down or recall the rest is the same. 1. Narrative Introduction To The E-Collar Lost/Out Of Sight Dog Recovery Exercise, http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GxqjDfS2B3Y Video Of Exercise No 1 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VdF4N9fnvRY Video Of Exercise No 1 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=63D3bGeyosw .

Great work Rocco, glad you got a good result - some vids below of first 5 mins use, 3 days later, and some pre prong collar owner and dog Lab below - started pulling at puberty, 7 months, age in vids 14 months and been pulling since 7 months. Lab - Short Harness Walk Before Prong Collar http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...352652803788252 Lab - Longer harness 'walk' before prong http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...727331562006644 This was first 5 mins on prong http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...653319694775350 Three days after first walk http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...179535030719474 Permission granted to use the above videos for non proffit educational purposes permitted . .

Denis Sorry Wolf can you please clarify what you wrote, A was a question immediately followed by B which was a statement of use with a question mark at the end, are you asking or telling everybody how they are used Denis Judge for yourself, here’s vids of a human reaction and two dogs to the working level (the level you use on any dog) Testing The Working Level Of E-Collar On 8 Month Old Jack Russel http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...735919357023488 Testing The Working Level If E-Collar On Lab http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...526843747129672 Human experience http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...462894394441342 .

Denis Hi AM - I think this vid explains it better, its around 4 mins of nothing but running after and hunting squirels, all prey drive behaviour, she's also a high drive dog with good working genes so its pronounced - the recall is random and totally unpredictable by the dog, the recall whistle is a pack drive conditioned stim as soon as its used it deactivates all prey drive behaviour and she returns to me - When she returns and stays close around me pack drive is the drive behaviour which keeps her close, prey drive is active but confined to behaviours of looking around and picking up scents and sounds etc but they are low level prey drive behaviours and hanging around near me is high level (intensity) pack drive behaviour cancelling out higher prey drive behaviours such as running of after prey. Random, Recall -Pack Drive Stimulus Overideing High Prey Drive Behaviour Click arrow at botton right to enlarge http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...855839704908029

I should have added Im not very good at explaining things - LOL even my other vid went hillariously wrong

Denis I actually meant that although a dog is in prey drive chasing, running, grabbing sleeve etc those behaviours are prey drive, but running paralel and active is the pack drive, prey drive behaviours are not pack drive behaviours although they interact sometimes in varying degree. I did an elementary over view on drives and stim thresholds at the link below - in short & simple - different stimuli stimulate different drives, balls, tugs etc are all secondary prey drive stims - I develop the pack drive and consequently OB through primary pack drive stim which is my entire interaction with them - the link to the vid below is a primary pack drive stim, if I gave a ball or treat that would stimulate a very high % of the prey drive and a very low % of pack drive, in the vid its 100% primary pack drive stimulation - I never try and reinforce OB with treats - most people do it but I emphasis the pack drive stimulus, after a few secs when I give the "break" I might toss a treat to them on rare ocassions and I also ignore them immediatly after The vids go some way to explaning it combined with the text but in more simple terms - if your dogs running after this or that and it stops the chase to comply to a command - the prey drive is chasing behaviours but pack drive is the drive which is responsible for obedience behaviours - not sure thats explained so well - see if the vids make a bit more sense of it COMBIMED with the text at the link - Vid Primary pack drive positive reinforcer stimulation demo - note, no treats, no toys http://s245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/de...rent=Nov152.flv Pack drive stops prey drive behaviour (the brake) - pack drive behaviour (recall) takes over the dogs behavioural responses. http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...855839704908029 Text - the drives http://www.freewebs.com/dogmatters/ .

Hi - before starting with the collar you need a few days preventing collar wise (the dogs know the stim is coming from the collar) - I tell people to leave the collar on untill 60 days after the last use - below is collar wise procedure. Collar wise precautions. The main principle of using a remote static e-training collar is to ensure your dog never knows the sensation is anything to do with his collar, to avoid this you must not use the collar for the first few days to a week. As soon as you receive your collar you can place it on your dog and let him wear it WITHOUT use together with his/her normal collar for a few days to a week. Do not attach the lead to it as this can rub the stainless steel contact points on his skin. Take the collar on and off in the house and outside at intermittent intervals without any specific pattern. Keep the hand held transmitter or mobile phone etc in sight and fondle him whilst it is in your hand, point at him with it sometimes and generally over the period of a 3 or 4 days make both collar and transmitter neutral items to him, if you do not carry out this procedure your dog might only respond with the collar on and remain otherwise unchanged.

Hi Lablover - yes its me on a cold mid winter day here........it was the first time I tried it with sound cam - I had a great learning experience for these mini vid things a couple of days ago - I learned 'never try and do something vid orientated unless your in the mood for it' - below New conclusions in drive theory :D click arrow bottom right for large screen http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...641605491986200 .

Denis It might appear on the vids that eventually getting the ball after complying to each command is the greatest reward intensity to the dog - it's not the greatest reward to the dog, pack approval 'or' behaving as a subservient member of her pack duo throughout is the 'greatest intensity' reward...... The reason is simple, the ball is a prey drive stim, prey drive is a far weaker drive than pack drive and prey drive frequently exhausts, pack drive is functional and available 24/7, its the strongest most powerful of the drives excluding fight or fight drive, consequently no prey drive stimulus can overide a pack drive stim (command) if training through drive is done properly. But, that interpretation starts to show the flaws and weaknesses of operant learning theory interpretation of learning/teaching which excludes the internal state of the animal at any given time, the animals psychology etc and which cannot be consistently applied outside a lab under all circumstances at any given time without the use of a scientific instrument controlling the environment, the only scientific instrument capable of that in dog training is an e-collar, it controls the envioronment of the dog....... .

Hi all - thought I'd give it a few days afore I got back. Yes without sound its more confusing, I got one with sound now. OK - its not reward based, it is all a negative punishment based exercise - there is no reward for the dog unless she caries out a known command - negative means something is 'removed or witheld' = no reward until she did something = she got nothing until she did what she was told EG's If you don't go to work you do not get paid etc, commonly used in some religious communities "If you dont do this you will not go to heaven etc". I asked because here in UK the real meanings of reward and punishment are virtually lost....out of interest, the 'greater' reward for the dog was complying to the commands. Thanks guys... .

I suppose if a new dog owner reads her stuff they would be impressed - shes one of our very good buisness women writers though - heres some UK feedback from about 3 years ago - 1 http://direcases.tripod.com/fennel/jf1 2 http://direcases.tripod.com/fennel/2 3 http://direcases.tripod.com/fennel/3 4 http://direcases.tripod.com/fennel/4 5 http://direcases.tripod.com/fennel/5 6 http://direcases.tripod.com/fennel/6 .

Anyone else want to offer an answer..?

OK - This is really a test to asses to try and find out if those not involved in the commercial side of training understand te meanings of common terminology used in dog training - I ask all those with a commercial, FT or PT, to hold off replying to this until 3 days after the post time: Question - Is the video exercise & explanation below a reward based or punishment based exercise? The purpose of training exercises and aligned such as this are to recall any dog from a chase or any highly tempting situation at the point any dogs is at its most ‘intense/highly motivated’ to carry out an action (biting jogger, sheep or lunging at another dog etc) and a reliable recall under all circumstances. Training ball throwing video shows – throws 1 – 3 - 4 Throw 1 – easy viewing The ball is thrown and the dog can chase after it as she wishes and return. Throw 2 – needs close, maybe repeat viewing. The ball is thrown as before, as the dog closes in on the ball, just as her head is going down to bite and recover it I give a whistle recall, as close as I can see from the video this is at, 00.47 on the video counter. My dog recalls to me on the whistle, as she closes a hand signal puts her to heel (not a competition heel) – she is then given the “break” command and goes to collect the ball, ball collected by dog at 01.03 on counter . Throw 3 – easy viewing The ball is thrown, no commands just play retrieve. Throw 4 – easy viewing The ball is accidentally thrown off camera so I don’t do a “ leave recall”, no commands just play retrieve. Throw 5 - needs close, maybe repeat viewing. Ball accidentally lands off camera – At the same point as the other recall, when she is about to bite and collect the ball I whistle recall my dog. She starts to come back to me and 02:10 on the counter I have blown a “down stay” command, she starts to go down and at 2:12 she is in the “down stay” position and has left the ball, the down is slow, because of her old leg injury. At 02:16 I give the vocal “break command” – she goes to get the ball and the exercise is over, she has won her ball reward and its hers to keep and do what she wants with. Video http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...607008324730571 .

I think its about time Steve did one, but, production costs and market potential come into it when making a good quality vid. The one that's rated best by most trainers was the 1998 TT (Tri Tronics) Oakridge full OB training vid with Tom Dokken and others, starting with treats, teching corrections and distance work, it misses corrections with distractions but does say build them up slowly. It came out with the first of the modern collars in 1998 but disappeared as the years went by. The last ons I saw selling it was gundogsupply but they don't ship collars outside N America, I don't know about other stuff. Maybe try Tom Dokken, if not gundog supplies, if not put big time pressure on Steve to get one done Tom Dokken http://www.deadfowltrainer.com/ Gundog supplies http://www.gundogsupply.com/

Denis You've done really great and its good to see knowledge of e-collars spreading in Aus and around the world . No question about in my mind, increasing global e-collar training & anti bark collar knowledge and growth of use has probably saved more owners from a life of misery, more dogs from PTS or rescue over this past year than any other training aid in the history of dogs. Your vid and your description of life before the e-collar shows just how an extreme low quality of life situation to many millions dog owners can recover the the quality of life of the dog and how its human family can be pulled out of an abyss of perpetual stress, anxiety, depression, family friction and general all round daily misery to a relaxed and calm existance, ensuring the dogs safe and secure futor in a lifelong home with a loveing family. You've done great and thanks for letting people know, also the use of vids is growing, it would be great if an others would do a befor during and after vid sequence, the vids say it all really and I started some short edu bits this year. Below is the working levels of two dogs, the ideal protocols are an environment with the least distractions as possible, I am in London and dont follow that protocol, its unrealisitc. Video's E-Collar working level respones of a JR to a strange stimuli (e-stim). http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...735919357023488 E-Collar working level respones of a Lab to a strange stimuli (e-stim) http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...526843747129672 Human experience http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...717455275500510 .

Deleted at OPs PM request. .

Deni That’s more less exactly what the Scots Secretary for Rural Affairs Richard Lockheed has told the extremists in their attempts to get e-collars banned there, he is head of the Scots government dept which deals with it. Below is the Scots stated position. Quote - Richard Lockheed, "no decision on any such regulation can be made without robust evidence to support it"

. . UK Animal Rights Terrorist Group Wanted To Kill This Dog Lord Pearson of Rannoch "KC’s wish to ban electric dog collars is simply too extreme" http://z9.invisionfree.com/dogrefuk/index.php?showtopic=3 .

Ami Moore, pro e-collar trainer, Chicago, was judged not guilty of cruelty for using an e-collars, the case was preciptated by radical animal rights extremists of the 'Dgger Wirthless' variety. Animal rights extremists groups, including PETA, are to be sued, I spoke to Ami and she has authourised me post this here. Denis Carthy ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ E-Collar Trainer Animal Rights Terrorists To Be Sued By Ami Moore I am writing to let you know that I won my court case yesterday. I soundly routed the local PETA cell and while doing so exposed their ignorant and bigoted agenda. I want to thank the members of this list for your support, I couldn't have survived for 18 months without it. November 16, 2007 Accomplished Chicago Dog Trainer Ami Moore Bites Back Big Sues PETA, Neighbor for Defaming Her Through Media, Internet African-American Business Woman Won't be Bullied by PETA's Terror Tactics. Esteemed Chicago dog trainer Ami Moore has filed a multi-million dollar, multi-count lawsuit against People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, Inc. (PETA) and a West Loop animal rights sympathizer, charging they deliberately defamed her and her business in their calculated and premeditated program of media and internet character assassination in recent months. "This is America and in this country well-funded and well-organized eco-terrorist groups like PETA and its supporters with agendas, should not be allowed to target and destroy innocent people and businesses that they don't like," said Ami Moore. The dispute stems from two misdemeanor complaints filed against Moore in July, 2006, after Moore used an electronic dog training collar to train a dog in a West Loop park. Such "tappers" are commonly used by dog trainers, are considered a humane and dog friendly training tool and are as benign as the ubiquitous invisible fence used commonly by suburban homeowners. Since last year PETA has deliberately, with malice and forethought, used its web site to disseminate false and defamatory information about Moore and her business to millions of websites around the globe. Opresnik has made false and defamatory statements to several Chicago-area media outlets. "I haven't spent decades of my life learning about the dog's heart and mind to let PETA bully me around," said Moore. "These radical eco- terrorists habitually attack small animal related businesses need to know that they must act responsibly. PETA is Goliath, and I am proud to stand up for all small businesses and be their `David' in this case. The FBI considers PETA to be a clear and present danger to the American way of life, and I agree. Our Congress believed that the threat from PETA and other groups to be so serious, that it passed the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act (AETA) to protect American citizens from the malicious and felonious acts of animal right terrorists groups like PETA. " Moore's business, DoggieDoRight911, is located in Downtown Chicago. Moore is an animal protection activist who has saved hundreds of dogs and households from the pain and consequences of poorly trained and misbehaving dogs. She has thousands of satisfied customers – dogs and people – to prove it. The DoggieDoRight911 Philosophy "Dogs have the right to be educated so that they can fit into our modern life. It is inhumane and immoral to have an untrained, uneducated dog that is a danger to the family and the community. Domestic dogs have the right to have the kindest, best, most effective, and most humane training tools and methods used for their education, so that every dog in America can have the greatest of gifts -- a good and loving forever home." For up-to-date news about Ami Moore please go to www.chicagosupports ami.com. To learn more about Ami Moore, the Dog Whisperer of Chicago and her business visit www.DoggieDoRight91 1.com. .

E-Pulse collars are the only that will stop all dogs, with a good collar exceptions are extremely rare and thats down to the technological advances of digital. There are quite a lot of them and you really need to get the right one or it might not work on your dog e.g. some only have 3 levels, many dogs ignore it, the owner did no research and thinks they are all the same so gives up. Cutting it short, the Petsafe De Lux anti bark is the best all round collar, it has 18 levels in total and wil cover the vast majority of dogs within those levels, that collar is activated by two things, a bark vibration detector and a sound detector, if both are activated together it goes off, this eliminates other sounds setting them off and bumps which might occasionally happen with some of the cheaper or lower spec collars and happens frequently with spray collars, hope that helps.

Just to add - there is no training method uses more 'positive reinforcement', in the REAL meaning of the term, than when an e-collar is one of the training aids with any appropriate dog, which is why the dogs learn fast, are more reliable and never have learning difficulties - but they are used to conform to te real meanings of the words 'positive' or 'reward' and not the incorrect, and therefor irrelevant, way they are used in whats called 'positive training', thats a commercial product not a method of training anything.

Mita Do you believe that positive dog training is just one of the methods people can use..... Denis Hi Mita - Firstly I have to aplogise in advance for not having much time to give detailed replies, must get dog out and the off for a couple of hours. 'Positive dog training' is not a method of training anything, the words are from operant learning theory all that means is that any animal learns something as the result or ANY external stimuli present in the environment - the key is 'any stimuli' - the words themselves are stimuli to humans and if used prolifically on individuals are 'emotionally' influencial - we respond/are attracted towards anything said to be 'positive/ly' - we are avoid anything which in the normal use of the word is 'negative' - both these words are technical terms from the operant learning theory - people who are swamped with these words by dog trainers for their own commercial ends are responding to the words - they are told they using 'positive' methods but they are not, it makes people feel good but it is not a method of training. Sorry I just have no more time right now but I did touch on this very thing on Dol a year or so ago - if you read it some of it might put a few things together in answer to your question, link below - Denis Carthy - begins 3rd Jun 2006 - 06:10 AM http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...64707&st=15

As an afterthought - to sum these cranks up in simple terms, legible in Oz, your amazing Dr Worthless was only the prototype - these cranks are the upgraded models

Denis AAAaahhhhhhhhhh................yes, my guess is the person had a bit of a confrontation with me and crops up on the dol post below from a couple of years ago - childlike was the key if I got it right although I still don't rule out some of our wingeing poms from my cranks zoo. http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...73223&st=75